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Winter Conditioning: How best to maximise Weight and Hill training into program (?)

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Winter Conditioning: How best to maximise Weight and Hill training into program (?)

Old 07-31-15, 03:19 PM
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Racer ex. Thanks for your insight. Really. I am particularly interested in your comments on Periodization. Two seasons running now, I have "broken down", by pushing, pushing on with the training, to complete the schedules, when my legs have been deeply "fatigued, after a period of around 6/7 weeks. And each time I reached a stage where I couldnt push on any further, lost the will to train, which knocked me out for 6 - 7 weeks, before I could face being on a bike again. So, yes, I am one of those "zero folks over 50" you mention. And, I dont want it to happen again !! Fact is, its the biggest lesson that I have had to learn so far ..

Can I push you for a little more (high level) detail on your experiences in "workout sequencing" that you mention Racer ex ?

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Old 07-31-15, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton
Do low reps in the gym. High reps on the bike.
Originally Posted by Minion1
The upshot? It was NTFU (next to f******* useless). The idea was endurance conditioning, but because rowing is a strength endurance sport the time would have been better spent actually practicing the activity. The gym time would have been better spent doing standard strength endurance training (8-12 reps, 3-4 sets, etc, the ones everyone here knows), or having a break, instead it just built up a huge level of fatigue and probably left me skating close to RSI injuries.
Can't agree strongly enough with these. Nearly every cyclist I've ever heard who starts to think about adding gym work inevitably has the epiphany "hey, high reps replicates what I do on the bike!" And right there is why most people come away thinking the gym didn't help them much. You should be in the gym to add strength, and lifting heavy (low reps) is the proven way to best accomplish that (overwhelming evidence over many decades).
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Old 07-31-15, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by VanceMac
Can't agree strongly enough with these. Nearly every cyclist I've ever heard who starts to think about adding gym work inevitably has the epiphany "hey, high reps replicates what I do on the bike!" And right there is why most people come away thinking the gym didn't help them much. You should be in the gym to add strength, and lifting heavy (low reps) is the proven way to best accomplish that (overwhelming evidence over many decades).
Thanks guys. Gottcha: message is clear This is a "key principle" - which has just saved me a whole block of time / training to find out .. appreciato
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Old 07-31-15, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by brawlo
From my own experience, and observations of some really fast masters guys, I think you need to seriously consider what your focus will be. Your age group is still very competitive and I think you either need to focus on sprinting, or just be happy to be a fast all rounder. That would still allow you to be a fast sprinter, but when you come up against the pure sprint guys, you will likely be smoked, especially at the worlds. Basically the fast sprint guys only do sprinting. A long ride for them is a keirin, and a few of them don't even do those.

As for the other stuff to do with the specific exercises, I think it's far too early in your journey to worry about those. As eluded to above, the racers you see doing those exercises are doing them after many years of development in an effort to eek out hundredths of a second. Stick to the basics to build a good base from which you can tweak at a later point.

Finally on the topic of the pedalling and pulling up, there is definitely a benefit to incorporating your hip flexors and hamstrings into the movement. But the benefit to these that I can feel is in full gas standing starts, where you can definitely feel the added benefit of engaging these muscles. Once you're up and going after the first few pedal strokes, I don't think it helps all that much, but for those first few, definitely a benefit
Makes a lot of sense brawlo. I appreciate the wisdom, as I seek to understand ..
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Old 07-31-15, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DHRB45
re

Yes, it is coach Ferg. You are right. It is the "broad base" you mention that I am trying to understand. The "principles" if you will. See, I used to be a (junior) NZ powerlifter, and able to squat 2.8 x bodyweight for reps. After all this time, I am awed that my 56 year old body has once again gone past the "squat bodyweight for reps" milestone, and am on my way towards squatting 1.5 x bodyweight for reps. Humbling, but wonderful. But the real magic for me is a newfound passion for track racing - and being able to use weights, to develop power, to be able to go faster on the track. Needless to say, I am hooked - Oh, and totally love being able to communicate with you guys, as I seek to learn stuff. Howsat
Ferg's a great coach, he'll sort you out.

It's also easy to forget how a lot of this stuff is obvious to the more experienced riders, but can be quite opaque for beginners. Most folk I know began on the road and came to track later, so ave quite a few years on the bike under their belts.
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Old 07-31-15, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton
- The know-it-all (who really does know.)
I wish 11.4 would post here.
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Old 08-01-15, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by queerpunk
I wish 11.4 would post here.
Tell me about it. That guy knows a helluva lot. He dropped knowledge on all kinds of things that I didn't know to even think about.

For example (from nearly 10 years ago): https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycl...ml#post1986737
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Old 08-01-15, 07:52 AM
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He still posts on Weight Weenies from time to time, seems to be a snark magnet over there though, which is baffling.

Last edited by Minion1; 08-01-15 at 07:33 PM. Reason: Sense.
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Old 08-01-15, 10:20 AM
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he posts on The Paceline, too. he's got insider knowledge that you can't fake. deep high-level experience.
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Old 08-01-15, 11:50 AM
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I'd also list 11.4 in the category of:

- The lurker who knows but won't answer (usually pros or really accomplished people. If they do speak up, posts are far and few between).
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Old 08-01-15, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton
Tell me about it. That guy knows a helluva lot. He dropped knowledge on all kinds of things that I didn't know to even think about.

For example (from nearly 10 years ago): https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycl...ml#post1986737
Holy crap that just blew my mind.
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Old 08-01-15, 06:06 PM
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Guys, can we have some insight into "big gear" / "steady-state slope" interval training: Thinking:

What is the difference - in training effect - between "big gear" intervals ridden on the flat, and "steady-state" intervals on a 5 to 6 degree slope. (i.e. we are not talking general training on hills per se)

Is the training effect pretty much the same (between the two types of sessions?)

To what extent (if at all) do you fast guys use them? (What benefits have you found?)

Do you prefer "big gear" training on flat, or "steady-state slope" intervals (and why). And, whereabouts would you use them in your buildup to your racing season ..

Cheers: DHRB

Last edited by DHRB45; 08-01-15 at 06:57 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 08-01-15, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton
I'd also list 11.4 in the category of:
Text below is lifted from a WW thread on sprinting. I'm definitely a lurker, and there's a few guys I follow/borderline stalk online, because they've proved that know their game inside and out. 11.4' also seems really generous and gracious with his time and responses, which lets face it, on most internet forums, is exceptional.

"I was involved with the Australian national track team on several fronts for about three years, and since then have been at the Manchester velodrome for extended coaching and management alongside the British national track team and frequently parts of the Sky road team. Both teams have been very successful focusing sprint strength development on weights, integrating strength into rapid sled work and some plyos, then putting it on the WattBike, and only then getting on the road or track with it. Once one is riding one's bike, there are a lot of other issues to manage so the sprint should come almost automatically. And as most people who have tried to develop a fast sprint have discovered, it's quite hard to translate power at 85 rpm to power at 120-140 rpm. And it doesn't matter so much whether it's road or track -- the riders at the front of a bunch sprint are still going to be doing high cadence and be riding at comparable speeds"
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Old 08-02-15, 05:21 AM
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Whoa, Nice!
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Old 08-02-15, 05:34 AM
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Nice cyber stalking Minion1. I realised he must have experience from the quality of his posts but didn't know the above. It explains much!

Agreed he is open with his knowledge. Got some very detailed replies to a couple of my questions in the past.
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Old 08-02-15, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by queerpunk
he posts on The Paceline, too. he's got insider knowledge that you can't fake. deep high-level experience.
just came over here to say this- glad to see our man on the spot has it covered.
The bikes and gear he occasionally posts for sale is another indicator.
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Old 08-02-15, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DHRB45
Guys, can we have some insight into "big gear" / "steady-state slope" interval training
Not sure what you are trying to achieve by suggesting hill sessions over big gear efforts? If cadence and power are the same, the main difference I see is biomechanical - in that position on the saddle (forward/aft) / pedal stroke / upper body (track drops/tops) would likely differ between the two. Since you are wanting to improve your track strengths, I would recommend specificity wins unless you cannot sustain your target power during big gear efforts on the flat.

How do you plan to measure power, cadence etc?
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Old 08-02-15, 10:48 PM
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OP can get more meaningful work done using a mag trainer.

The biggest benefits being:

- Match your riding position
- Match the desired torque
- Match the desired cadence range
- Instant on/off resistance
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Old 08-03-15, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by DHRB45
Guys, can we have some insight into "big gear" / "steady-state slope" interval training: Thinking:

What is the difference - in training effect - between "big gear" intervals ridden on the flat, and "steady-state" intervals on a 5 to 6 degree slope. (i.e. we are not talking general training on hills per se)

Is the training effect pretty much the same (between the two types of sessions?)

To what extent (if at all) do you fast guys use them? (What benefits have you found?)

Do you prefer "big gear" training on flat, or "steady-state slope" intervals (and why). And, whereabouts would you use them in your buildup to your racing season ..

Cheers: DHRB
My instinct is to say that the training effects are not different. However, the dose is likely to be different, but that's because of the rider, not the workout. What i mean is: it's 'easier' to go harder on hills. That is, it's hard to go as hard on the flats as one can go on hills.

I just had a rider I work with do 4x 2-minute intervals. The first 3 were on flats and the 4th was up a power climb. I am pretty sure that she totally emptied the tank up the climb in a way that is very difficult to do on the flats.

I suspect this effect is pretty common.
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Old 08-03-15, 01:35 PM
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[QUOTE=Dalai;18038330]Not sure what you are trying to achieve by suggesting hill sessions over big gear efforts? If cadence and power are the same, the main difference I see is biomechanical - in that position on the saddle (forward/aft) / pedal stroke / upper body (track drops/tops) would likely differ between the two. Since you are wanting to improve your track strengths, I would recommend specificity wins unless you cannot sustain your target power during big gear efforts on the flat.

How do you plan to measure power, cadence etc?[/QUOTE-

I am not suggesting hill sessions over big gear efforts (steady-state, slope sessions actually Rather, I am seeking to understand which has the better pre-season conditioning training effect, and why. What I have noticed, is that doing these steady state slope sessions, (in a slightly big gear) seems to force me to really focus on applying greater, more even power to the effort. Seems to me that I am applying a little more focus on turning the cranks slightly more evenly, slightly more powerfully on the "up-stroke". Which, I guess, is because of the biomechanical difference you mention (?).

How do I plan to measure power / cadence? By perceived effort, and HR monitor. (I little old fashioned I know

Last edited by DHRB45; 08-03-15 at 01:52 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 08-03-15, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by queerpunk
I just had a rider I work with do 4x 2-minute intervals. The first 3 were on flats and the 4th was up a power climb. I am pretty sure that she totally emptied the tank up the climb in a way that is very difficult to do on the flats.

I suspect this effect is pretty common.
Of course it is easier to hold power whilst overcoming gravity. I always find my power values are far less variable on inclines too. Question is how specific is riding hills for racing on the track? Things like hip angles, application of torque...
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Old 08-04-15, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dalai
Nice cyber stalking Minion1. I realised he must have experience from the quality of his posts but didn't know the above. It explains much!

Agreed he is open with his knowledge. Got some very detailed replies to a couple of my questions in the past.
No joke but if if I could move to Manchester I would. I'm part English, have family there, and have lived in the UK before, so it wouldn't entirely be because I was stalking some random track guru online...
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Old 08-04-15, 04:09 PM
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How specific is riding hills (steady-state slopes) for track racing conditioning ?

Originally Posted by Dalai
Of course it is easier to hold power whilst overcoming gravity. I always find my power values are far less variable on inclines too. Question is how specific is riding hills for racing on the track? Things like hip angles, application of torque...
Chaps ??
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Old 08-05-15, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by DHRB45
Chaps ??
Dude, you are asking a lot. We aren't just going to spill our guts because you keep asking "why?"

Last edited by carleton; 08-05-15 at 01:53 AM. Reason: phrasing.
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Old 08-05-15, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton
Dude, you are asking a lot. We aren't just going to spill our guts because you keep asking "why?"
Oh. I thought thats what the "training forum" was all about - asking "why", sharing knowledge and such.
I am really rather new to forums, so perhaps I have missed something .. apols; I thought that was the point

Seems a shame: I am rather enjoying engaging with you chaps. Really.
Just seeking to understand ..

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