gtrob

FWIW I was skimming the cyclist training bible, which is a pretty standard read for road cyclists, and there is a lot in there that can be adapted to track. The principals of periodization, stress, etc.

I noted a bit on developing power as you ask and they had suggested this workout:

Do a hip flexor exercise (squats), 8rep
immediately go to box jumps. Say 10 rep
immediately after those go on the bike trainer for 20-30s all out sprints


I think there is something to be said here for this concept, of doing a heavy lift but instead of sitting there waiting for LA to clear, to move your legs in high speed in the movement the bike. I always try at the gym to make some high cadence bike spin part of my warm up and warm down, if nothing more than to remind my legs why we are doing this.


There are some good sprint (run) workouts that have similar things. Here is a long and detailed one on a higher level sprinter (I wouldn't suggest trying to follow it, rather take the ideas)
Champion Sprinter Training Program! - Bodybuilding.com

DHRB45

I started this thread asking: "How do the Top trackies develop devastating POWER .." "What are the core principles and fundamentals ?", and "Were do we go from here to develop that strength into developing real power".

Several of you were very helpful, with several good dobs of valuable tips and experience, and material surfaced on "Periodisation" - which, whilst having some good principles, had its drawbacks, is a little dated (and is not highly regarded by the Kiwi track cycling fraternity).

Well, we already knew there was (did I say surprisingly) very little info on this subject specific to Track sprinting - but that there was a lot of material relating to Athletics sprinting. I Knew there had to be a crossover in the gym room - as Squats, Leg Press, Deadlift etc. are used to develop Strength, and Power Cleans, Snatches etc. are used to develop Power for Athletics (and by some Trackies).

Well, I have found the "crossover material which I was seeking. To share with you: it is material by Charlie Francis.
See Amazon: Training for Power and Strength in Speed, Lactic Acid Tolerance training, and High Intensity Training (expanding the limits of Performance). This is the stuff I was after: which has already helped me to gain some REAL insight into What was going on with my training, and obtain some real understanding as to Why .. My journey continues .. knowing that my times shall come down. Yeeha !!

carleton

Lactic Acid Tolerance Training eBook: Charlie Francis: Amazon.com.au: Kindle Store

Understand that the only sprint event that involves what is commonly called "lactic acid" is the Kilo (and maybe the Keirin). At age 50+, the UCI Time Trial event is the 500M. There is no lactic acid in a 500M. The event (ideally) is too short at under 40s.

Speed-endurance isn't what you should be after right now. Neither is Speed....or Endurance.

You should be after Strength then Power. After that Speed then Speed-Endurance.

Let me put it this way:

Strength is moving heavy things or applying lots of torque. Power is moving heavy things or applying lots of torque quickly. If you aren't Powerful enough to get your body and bike up to 65kph, then you won't be able to tap into Speed Endurance in order to Endure holding 65kph longer than your opponent.

Strength and (subsequently) Power are the foundations of Track Sprinting. Not Speed-Endurance. Speed-Endurance is the icing on the cake. You gotta make the cake first

Speed-Endurance is trained in the weeks leading up to a big event. It is sharpening the blade of the sword. You should be in the foundry pouring molten metal into a mould and banging away at it for a long time before this part of training.

Apparently you've found a "book" that is really just a transcript from a forum that talks about this from a very different perspective. Apparently this TRACK RACING forum isn't good enough for you.

DHRB45

i

Thanks Carleton. though our discussion is probably a little too high-level to realiably comment on eh. I do (increasingly) understand the relationship between Strength, Power and Endurance, and the differences between "top-down" and "bottom-up training and such. But it is the deeper understanding of the physiological side of developing strength and power using weights (well known to Athletics ) and the level to which "crossover" applies to Track Sprinting - and, most of all, How to apply it which I find most intriguing. And which is broadly covered so very well in these Charlie Francis publications. Seriously, it is worthwhile material.

Should perhaps have not referred to the "Lactic Acid" publication.
But hey, it will / may / might / could be of considerable interest to the enduro boys. Any event,am happy to share it with forum members, in the same spirit in which material has been shared with me

carleton

I'm gonna print out threads from this forum, bind it, then sell it on Amazon for $10/copy then maybe you'll give us some credit

DHRB45

chuckle .. Hey, I do like this forum Carlton

DHRB45

"
Thanks for the pointer; shall take a look. Very interested to note the hip-flexor excercises too. Most of us dont take enough note of this powerful muscle - which athletic sprinters take very seriously indeed. We cyclists often refer to the "oh, but the "up" leg only unloads / coasts over the top of the pedal. Well, maybe for a recreational cyclist, but it is pretty obvious that it is part of the posterior-chain; therefore the femur rising - and therefore mightily important as part of the "power-chain" required to in the chainwheel powerfully and evenly (whilst starting / sprinting at least). Pretty sure that Eddie Dawkins trains his hip-flexors, as part of the power / posterior chain required to help him spin a 56 x 13. You reckon?

Makes a lot of sense also to, as you say, to "move your legs in high speed in the movement of the bike". This speaks of neuro-muscular specificity. I do something similar.

Allow me to pick you up on your definition of "20 - 30 second all-out sprints". Pretty sure that you meant "nearly all-out sprints" ? (cos you cant keep a true all-out sprint going for 30 seconds eh ? ) Hey, thanks for the post. God I find this stuff interesting !

EastCoastDHer

+1
Sprints are a love/hate.
I used to do them. Wait a minute between each. I think my best was 20. Then I wanted to puke. But it was fun. In a dirty way. I still haven't told my mom.

wens

So are you trying to understand the physiology or the practical portion of training? If you're trying to go after the physiology, you're going to need to read ex phys literature. If you're after the practical side, you're not going to get detailed core principles. There's a million ways to skin that cat. There have been guys who have only done on the bike strength work who have been world class, and his who do almost all their "bike" work on an erg. Mostly it comes down to grinding out the day to day consistent work for a program you can handle doing mentally.

wens

So are you trying to understand the physiology or the practical portion of training? If you're trying to go after the physiology, you're going to need to read ex phys literature. If you're after the practical side, you're not going to get detailed core principles. There's a million ways to skin that cat. There have been guys who have only done on the bike strength work who have been world class, and his who do almost all their "bike" work on an erg. Mostly it comes down to grinding out the day to day consistent work for a program you can handle doing mentally.

DHRB45

Hey, thanks for the comment. Yeah, you have captured the essence of (one of the reasons) as to why I love this sport so much - the multiple layers & levels of understanding! So, the physiology or the practical portion of training? Both actually..

Like, you know, there is always more to know, yet the more one knows - the more one realises how little one knows, so it can actually be better to "just get on the bike" but then you find out there is yet another layer "to know" which one doesnt yet know. And thus, it starts over again. You know?!

Minion1

Then we can post it on interesting finds from around the internet thread, and then you can bind [I]those[I] threads, then we can post them on interesting finds from around the internet....

carleton

Hahahaha!

DHRB45

Thanks Wen: This thread is about How to generate "Devastating Power". Ultimately, for the sprint Start, sprint Kick, but also for the "sprint" track events themselves. And Carleton was right; the thread wasnt supposed to be about lactate / endurance and such - I introduced an unnecessary diversion there.

What have we got to with this?

Well, my take is this: First up, that "There are many ways to skin the "Power Cat". Next: "that one must first develop Strength and (subsequently) Power as the foundations of Track Sprinting". We recognised that there was very little Track cycling specific material available as to how to achieve Strenth / Power - but that there was plenty of material for weights based development of strength / power for athletics sprinting - which was directly relevant for us Tradkie sprinters. Then I got all enthusiastic with the discovery of material and methods written by top athletics coach Charlie Francis; (which, by the way, I recently discovered, is considered worthwhile resource to at least 2 of the Kiwi sprint squad).

But hey, some of the top sprint trackies - Masters at least - Do Not use weights to develop Strength and / or Power.

So, dear trackies. I am thinking: How else do you (non-weight training) trackies develop your power (on the bike) ??

brawlo

Virtually anything that gets you to work on your top end. Race gear, over and under gear flying 200m & 500m efforts. Jumping from behind a moto or another rider to limit the energy spend to get up to higher speeds. Accelerating behind a moto.

Think of it like weights. You don't increase your lifts by pushing out reps at 80% hoping that your max magically increases. Devote 1-2x per week high/top speed sessions. Max effort, nothing less, big recoveries to make sure all efforts are quality.

If someone else is doing similar efforts, try asking them if you can join in with them. Especially beneficial if they're as fast of faster than you. Chase them using their draft to assist and try coming around them if you get close enough. It helps them too to give an extra push if you start to come around.

Lots of ways to skin a cat!

DHRB45

I
There are several good ideas here Brawlo. Can I pick up on one particular aspect ? Pace (of the 200s / 500 s. I have read a number of times in this forums Training thread, where people talk about "max effort", "all out", 100 % and such. Which is interesting: Tell you why, because I have been counselled to NOT go all out. Interesting eh? I had opportunity last year to speak withe Max Pendleton, Multiple British Champ, and trainer / father of Victoria Pendleton (Olympian). (w stayed at the same accomodation at NZ Masters Games). He told that probably the most important thing he could pass on to me, was that any reps / internals and such should be thoroughly under control, and paced - whatever the distance, whatefer the effort. Reckons that Victoria only ever gave true 100 % two or three times a year - at major events. I quizzed him on it, and he explained to me that a true "max effort" would only be for a second or two - around 4 or 5 seconds at most. And that everything else is actually "submaximal", and therefore should be at a "controlled pace relevant to the rep or whatever distance. Interesting that my new coach (Coach Ferg) has made this very clear to me too. He also impressed on me that when I reached a volume of reps where I couldnt continue at the same pace - then no more reps i.e. stop doing them.

Which is most interesting innit

gtrob

If you honestly think they don't give 100% effort more than 2 times a year then you misunderstood them


You really shouldn't be setting personal records in off season training 5 reps in... so in that context no you will not be going all out. However when you practice your flying 100 or 200, do not hold back. A 10.5 rider is not going to punch out 10.5 200s all day in training, however they are not going to be 14s. When you go to the gym you don't just do 1rep maxes (like you would in competition), but you lift say 80% of your max at 100% effort.


from another coach:

Motivation ...
To sprint well and to train to sprint well requires a level of commitment unusual in many other sports. Our efforts are done at 100% almost all the time. That's 100% of what we can do at the time. When you do a standing start, it's all out. A flying 50, again, all out. When you race a flying 200, a 500m time trial you don't pace yourself, you give it everything. We race, and train, at 100%.




Don't let us fool you though, feel free to do calf raises, hip flexions, and cruising sprints all you want!

gtrob

I do not know Eddie's training program in the least.

Hip flexor is a muscle group. Hip flexion is up, extension is down. The book makes no mention of flexion, only extension of flexor muscles.

As noted by many people here, including journal articles, they serve little to no purpose in producing power. I am posting this for others that might read this thread, as I know you have your mind made up.

carleton

I'm starting to think that DHRB45 is Joseph.

DHRB45

aah, thats where you are wrong grtob. I am in the process of learning, and adding - refining if you like - my own knowledge (and how to apply it). My whole approach is one of "open-mindedness".

Now, I did note earlier in this thread, that there were a couple of mentions of the "unweighting", but I also noted the couple of mentions from cyclists who did do hip flexion excercises, that it DId help sprinting; they could say how / when it helped. So the views werent one sided.

So I got to thinking: And you are right: It is indeed common wisdom that the "up-stroke" contributes nothing to the power - I had always "known" that too. But hang on a minute, whilst this may be so for recreational cyclists, I am not one of those !

So I did my own research, seeking info about top American / British sprinters, and in Sports Strength & Conditioning journals. I did this because a) it seemed to me that, with the hip girdle to leg muscles being so powerful, they might / must play a part and b) I thought it likely that a "quad only" / leg extension only 360 degree power stroke would make for a VEry uneven power-stroke (think washing machine trying to spin, with a big, heavy bed-cover on one side). .

It didnt take much research to discover that hip-flexors have a key role to play with elite athletic sprinter training (including Ursain Bolt's). So I did some research regarding hip-flexors for elite sprint cyclists. And guess what ..

DHRB45

Naah though I do have a technicolour coat. Truly ! I wear it sometimes playing Professor Longhair / Doctor John music on the piano at music gigs. Its New Orleans Mardi-Gras colours - 3 colours, - so sure whether that really counts ..

DHRB45

Do I detect a hint of .. no never mind ..

I suspect the difference is in the terminology. I give 100 % in all my rep work also, but the reps themselves are usually at a "contolled pace", relative to the distance. imagine a person try to run 400 metres at the same pace as he runs 100 metres. Noot

Anyway, that was the advice Max gave to me and, apparently, is one of the principles that Victoria and British team uses. I thought that I understood what he meant. But now, I am not so sure.

Tell you what, let me qualify the advice (I remain in touch with him).
Are you interested in the response ?

carleton

Dude, you just like to hear yourself talk.

If we are all just idiots, then why are you here?

Your attitude is that, somehow, you know more than everyone here after some google searching and brief conversations you've had.

And THEN if we tell you that you are wrong, you are like "List your accomplishments, list your training program(s), then prove me wrong."

The only right way is the one that wins medals and jerseys. Put up or shut up.

(Yeah, I'm a moderator here, but I'm also a member...entitled to my opinion.)

wens

Eh, I'm more reading "I've made up my mind, now I just need to find the data to support it." and going to keep asking questions until I get answers I like. Doesn't much bother me, but he'll either learn and end up in more or less the same place as everyone else, or won't. I think everyone posting it reading here who reached a high level knows there's a whole lot of grinding out the fundamentals, that's why they're named that, and no "get rich quick" scheme other than awesome genetics.

DHRB45

-
Nope. That is where you are quite wrong Carleton. I thought I had made it quite clear that I have an "enquiring mind" and like to deeply understand stuff. Like to know the "why" within the context of my own existing understanding if you like. And am perfectly happy adjusting my understanding - when there is an evidence based supply of further info. Isnt that how we learn as individuals? I guess that is why I do ask a lot of questions ..

Making it clear, that I have appreciated the input from you guys, which has added to my appreciation of the sport, and the "jigsaw" of my own understanding. Reckon this thread could have developed rather beautifully, as further aspects of "Developing Awesome Power" were drawn out. There is so much more. And, I hope that it still does.

Clearly, you rule the roost Carleton.
I wish you well ..