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    Senior Member DHRB45's Avatar
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    How to Develop devastating POWER

    How do the Top trackies develop devastating POWER at the beginning - and end of their races?
    What are the core principles and fundamentals ??

    We know that Strength per se is just a starting Point - not the end goal. So, lets say that I can squat between 1.5 and 2 x bodyweight, and currently use Single leg press, Romanian Deadlift, hip flexors, Hamy curls. Where do we go from there to develop that strength into developing real power?

    Sadly, most of the stuff on the Internet about using weights to develop "Power" relates to American Field and Track Sprinters. So how much of their stuff is "transferable" to our preferred sport? Do our top trackies utilise ballistic training, drop jumps and Power cleans for example?
    Last edited by DHRB45; 08-13-15 at 04:32 AM. Reason: clarity

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    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Sprinters or enduros?
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

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    Pedal harder and be patient

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    go fast turn left

    in all seriousness.. Do standing start hill sprints on your road bike in a gear harder than you race. do NOT stop pedalling (nor sprinting) until the sprint is over. Go 100%. It will hurt. You will suffer. You will hate it. but you will WATTS.
    Last edited by WhatsYoCadence; 08-12-15 at 12:22 PM. Reason: watts, bro

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHRB45 View Post
    How do the to trackies develop devastating POWER at the beginning and end of their races?
    What are the "core principles" ? What excersises do they use?

    Strength per se is just the Starting Point right? So, lets say that I can squat between 1.5 and 2 x bodyweight and am trying to step-up to "A" grade ?? Sadly, most of the stuff on the Internet and in the library is about American Field and Track Sprinters.

    So what approach / type of program fundamentals is recommended ??
    I thought we covered this in your other thread

    You are asking for a program.

    Basically:

    Track Sprint events* last around 1 minute or less. The key is to train your body to perform for 1 minute or less. You will (obviously) train longer than this in order to gain higher levels of fitness and whatnot. But, very few dedicated sprinters have 4-5 hr rides in their training programs.

    *Yes, Keirins are longer, but most of that time is spent sitting-in and waiting for the motor to drop off.

    Energy systems and training methodology is similar to that of track & field (aka: athletics) sprinters.

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    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Hell, I'm a road guy and track enduro, and the longest ride I've been assigned this season is 3-1/2 out four hours. Unless a guy is targeting high level road races, five hour rides aren't really necessary for any training program. They can be fun though, when you're really fit and acclimated to riding.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

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    Didn't you say in the previous thread that you had engaged a coach? This should be your questioning for them.

    One of the earliest drills I was taught by a then masters world champ clubmate, was to do alternating standing and seated starts. Do one, then roll around for 2-3 laps and then the other. Do 4-6 reps, rest and repeat. Do this drill 1-2x per fortnight. Push for around 100m to start with and as you get stronger/fitter, push it out progressively to 200-300m. When you're doing 200-300m, that's when you should look at 4reps instead of 6. I think that little routine was the catalyst for me to having a standing start that well exceeds my 'paper' ability.

    As for the end of races, race as much as possible and never give up at the end of a race. Even if you're coming last, give it everything until the finish line. This will train your body to develop power/speed at the end of a race better than pretty much any other training. If you can get in on shorter competitive bunch rides with sprint finishes, then use them too.

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    Senior Member DHRB45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wens View Post
    Sprinters or enduros?
    Sprinter .. i.e. Sprints, Kieran and Kilo - i.e. not the track scratch races of 5, 10, 15 etc kms ..

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    Senior Member DHRB45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
    Didn't you say in the previous thread that you had engaged a coach? This should be your questioning for them..
    I did brawlo: I have engaged a coach; early days though i.e. we will get into this stuff later. Have started base training, with main events in Feb 2016 - but am seeking to further knowledge and understanding now

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    Senior Member DHRB45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brawlo View Post

    One of the earliest drills I was taught by a then masters world champ clubmate, was to do alternating standing and seated starts. Do one, then roll around for 2-3 laps and then the other. Do 4-6 reps, rest and repeat. Do this drill 1-2x per fortnight. Push for around 100m to start with and as you get stronger/fitter, push it out progressively to 200-300m. When you're doing 200-300m, that's when you should look at 4reps instead of 6. I think that little routine was the catalyst for me to having a standing start that well exceeds my 'paper' ability.
    Real interesting this. I note that you havent mentioned weights based Power Development. Also, this sounds like an adaption based on developing the "cross - over" between alactic and anaerobic energy systems (?)
    Last edited by DHRB45; 08-13-15 at 02:07 AM.

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    Senior Member DHRB45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I thought we covered this in your other thread
    hi Carleton; we meet again No, we didnt (to my mind) cover this in my other thread. Touched on it briefly. That one was focused on Conditioning. Am most interested here in the specific development of Power - from weights (rather than pure strength per se.) And how to apply it on the bike. (The "Power meso-cycle " - the neuro-muscular side of things if you will ..
    Last edited by DHRB45; 08-13-15 at 02:21 AM.

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHRB45 View Post
    hi Carleton; we meet again No, we didnt (to my mind) cover this in my other thread. Touched on it briefly. That one was focused on Conditioning. Am most interested here in the specific development of Power - from weights (rather than pure strength per se.) And how to apply it on the bike. (The "Power meso-cycle " - the neuro-muscular side of things if you will ..
    Let's put your question into a different context. You asking, "How to Develop devastating POWER" in a track cycling forum is like asking "How to Develop devastating POWER" in a greco wrestling forum. There are so many things involved that there is no easy answer and certainly no single answer.

    This is like logging on to a cooking forum and asking, "How do I make a great meal?"

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    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Alternate response, stick with your coach 6-9 months and you'll find one way. Running 100-200 meter listing programs are similar enough durations and requirements those are also probably effective for track sprint weight training. This is a case of lots of ways to skin a cat though.
    Last edited by wens; 08-13-15 at 06:53 AM.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

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    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHRB45 View Post
    How do the Top trackies develop devastating POWER at the beginning - and end of their races?
    What are the core principles and fundamentals ??

    We know that Strength per se is just a starting Point - not the end goal. So, lets say that I can squat between 1.5 and 2 x bodyweight, and currently use Single leg press, Romanian Deadlift, hip flexors, Hamy curls. Where do we go from there to develop that strength into developing real power?

    Sadly, most of the stuff on the Internet about using weights to develop "Power" relates to American Field and Track Sprinters. So how much of their stuff is "transferable" to our preferred sport? Do our top trackies utilise ballistic training, drop jumps and Power cleans for example?
    from what i understand, the core principles are:
    1. you need to be strong (vertical jump is a good predictor)
    2. you need to be stronger (do you even lift, bro?)
    3. you need to be able to be strong, fast (don't just squat; do power cleans).
    4. you need to be able to put down power on the bike (stop doing power cleans and get on the bike)
    5. not too much. get off the bike and start eating chocolate cake.

    oh, here's something you should read i guess:
    Up! Up! Up! ? Up! Up! Up! An introduction to track sprint cycling

    and this post:
    The Strength and Conditioning Program for the Australian National Sprint Cycling Team

    (which i lost, for a spell, and found by searching for: sprint, australia, arvo, chocolate cake.)
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post

    This is like logging on to a cooking forum and asking, "How do I make a great meal?"
    Use bacon

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    Quote Originally Posted by brawlo View Post

    One of the earliest drills I was taught by a then masters world champ clubmate, was to do alternating standing and seated starts. Do one, then roll around for 2-3 laps and then the other. Do 4-6 reps, rest and repeat. Do this drill 1-2x per fortnight. Push for around 100m to start with and as you get stronger/fitter, push it out progressively to 200-300m. When you're doing 200-300m, that's when you should look at 4reps instead of 6. I think that little routine was the catalyst for me to having a standing start that well exceeds my 'paper' ability.

    As for the end of races, race as much as possible and never give up at the end of a race. Even if you're coming last, give it everything until the finish line. This will train your body to develop power/speed at the end of a race better than pretty much any other training. If you can get in on shorter competitive bunch rides with sprint finishes, then use them too.

    Im simple terms, to get better at X, practice X.

    The things you want to get better at, 5s power, 30s power, its actually pretty simple. Do 5 and 30s intervals full out. Strength training will give you more potential power to use, but you need to do the sessions on the bike. There is no magic formula or tricks. The #1 thing the fastest guys do is hard work.

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    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Yeah, the only time magic formulas get involved is when you're done improving. and it's really hard to hit that level.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

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    Senior Member DHRB45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    Im simple terms, to get better at X, practice X.

    The things you want to get better at, 5s power, 30s power, its actually pretty simple. Do 5 and 30s intervals full out. Strength training will give you more potential power to use, but you need to do the sessions on the bike.
    Thanks. So lets break it down; you have mentioned "Strength training" - and sessions on the bike. Understand the need for both. S"o, if we take the Strength training, lets assume that we are well periodised on the "strength" side, but wish to progress on (as part of season buildup) into using the aquired strength, to develop further into raw Power.

    So, we are talking about a Power meso-cycle efffectively: the area that athletics has Much research and publicly available material about (and that track cycling doesnt). I am real interested in areas of "crossover" - and to know to what extent (if at all) top Masters trackies - er, you chaps presumably - utilise athletics type weight based principles and excercises in the gym. (??) (shall pick up on bike sessions you mention later

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    Quote Originally Posted by DHRB45 View Post
    Have started base training, with main events in Feb 2016 - but am seeking to further knowledge and understanding now
    Just me mindful that you don't taint your coach's work with various anecdotes you have read over the interwebs. Give your coach time to work with you before you begin to question what he/she is doing and why. If your coach is a good coach, perhaps you can even discuss with them various things you are reading here and elsewhere without them thinking you are undermining them.

    Quote Originally Posted by DHRB45 View Post
    Real interesting this. I note that you havent mentioned weights based Power Development.
    I haven't mentioned weights based power development because I seem to be leaning towards being one of those guys that do better without lifting mega weights. When I was at uni I was into the whole heavy weights power lifting type thing as opposed to body building style. I know I could lift big if I trained like I did back then, but due to my sheer size, my x body weight figures weren't overly impressive. For a couple of seasons after I decided I wanted to focus more on track sprinting, I tried working towards heavier weights and power based training with a sprint focus. The first season I beat my own path with a heavy reliance on UpUpUp which was a fairly new resource back then. The second season, I engaged a coach to help me pull the whole thing together and hopefully to get faster. The end result was no real noticeable increase in speed besides the basic development from my own lowish starting point.

    After getting a bit disappointed with the whole sprint/weights thing, for the last summer season I decided to change focus slightly to kilo style efforts for racing track carnivals with an emphasis on short scratch and handicap events up to 2km. I was still doing weights, just not nearly as heavy, upped the reps to 8-10, and included more plyo and explosive stuff. Due to my timetable, I wasn't able to do any training on the track bike, just racing on Friday nights. I was also doing our short 20-25km summer road races and a solid 1.5hr bunch ride. The trainer also got a good workout through the winter and on crappy days.

    The result of all that was that after only a couple of weeks into the season I was already at the same pace as what I had finished the last season off at. Around Christmas when we ran our club sprint champs I had taken 0.5s off my f200. Circumstances and family duties meant I wasn't able to do the club kilo nor state sprint to get a better idea of the progress I had made by the end of the season. Even more ***** was we had the nationals in Sydney 150km down the road and I had no work leave left to go.

    This season will be interesting....

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
    Just me mindful that you don't taint your coach's work with various anecdotes you have read over the interwebs. Give your coach time to work with you before you begin to question what he/she is doing and why. If your coach is a good coach, perhaps you can even discuss with them various things you are reading here and elsewhere without them thinking you are undermining them.
    I'd like to second these statements.

    A good coach should love a curious athlete who asks a lot of questions and seeks deeper understanding. I'm pretty sure most coaches loathe the athlete that (directly or indirectly) injects stuff from other programs or simply thinks that they know more than the coach.

    DHRB45,
    There has to be a level of trust in the program and the coach for the program and the relationship to work.

    As I've stated before, each athlete is different. It takes years for an athlete to find out which programs that their body responds to. There is no single way. The only way to know what's best for you is simply trial and error over the course of several seasons.

    With the internet it is very easy to "build a better mousetrap" by reading a lot and over-thinking. It really doesn't matter what we (you, us) think, to be honest. The only thing that matters is what our bodies respond to.

    There are people who barely train and put up crap numbers in practice but have the Eye of the Tiger in a race situation and slay the field. There are others that do the opposite. There are those who are meticulous planners, trainers, that log every effort, every gym session, every pedal stroke, who have the latest, greatest gear...who get slower every season.

    The only way to find out what's best for you is to do something and pay attention to the results.

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    Senior Member DHRB45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
    Just me mindful that you don't taint your coach's work with various anecdotes you have read over the interwebs. Give your coach time to work with you before you begin to question what he/she is doing and why. If your coach is a good coach, perhaps you can even discuss with them various things you are reading here and elsewhere without them thinking you are undermining them.
    Darn good advice brawlo .. received and accepted !

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    Senior Member DHRB45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
    Just me mindful that you don't taint your coach's work with various anecdotes you have read over the interwebs. Give your coach time to work with you before you begin to question what he/she is doing and why. If your coach is a good coach, perhaps you can even discuss with them various things you are reading here and elsewhere without them thinking you are undermining them.



    I haven't mentioned weights based power development because I seem to be leaning towards being one of those guys that do better without lifting mega weights. When I was at uni I was into the whole heavy weights power lifting type thing as opposed to body building style. I know I could lift big if I trained like I did back then, but due to my sheer size, my x body weight figures weren't overly impressive. For a couple of seasons after I decided I wanted to focus more on track sprinting, I tried working towards heavier weights and power based training with a sprint focus. The first season I beat my own path with a heavy reliance on UpUpUp which was a fairly new resource back then. The second season, I engaged a coach to help me pull the whole thing together and hopefully to get faster. The end result was no real noticeable increase in speed besides the basic development from my own lowish starting point.

    After getting a bit disappointed with the whole sprint/weights thing, for the last summer season I decided to change focus slightly to kilo style efforts for racing track carnivals with an emphasis on short scratch and handicap events up to 2km. I was still doing weights, just not nearly as heavy, upped the reps to 8-10, and included more plyo and explosive stuff. Due to my timetable, I wasn't able to do any training on the track bike, just racing on Friday nights. I was also doing our short 20-25km summer road races and a solid 1.5hr bunch ride. The trainer also got a good workout through the winter and on crappy days.

    The result of all that was that after only a couple of weeks into the season I was already at the same pace as what I had finished the last season off at. Around Christmas when we ran our club sprint champs I had taken 0.5s off my f200. Circumstances and family duties meant I wasn't able to do the club kilo nor state sprint to get a better idea of the progress I had made by the end of the season. Even more ***** was we had the nationals in Sydney 150km down the road and I had no work leave left to go.

    This season will be interesting....
    thanks for sharing brawlo You would be a fan for "less can be more" and of the value and place of plyos then eh

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    Quote Originally Posted by DHRB45 View Post
    You would be a fan for "less can be more"
    As a Masters aged athlete wanting to focus on sprint it is key! Quality over quantity...

    Reread RacerEx's post in your first topic - Winter Conditioning: How best to maximise Weight and Hill training into program (?)
    http://climbinglama.blogspot.com.au

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    Senior Member DHRB45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I'd like to second these statements.

    A good coach should love a curious athlete who asks a lot of questions and seeks deeper understanding. I'm pretty sure most coaches loathe the athlete that (directly or indirectly) injects stuff from other programs or simply thinks that they know more than the coach.

    DHRB45,
    There has to be a level of trust in the program and the coach for the program and the relationship to work.

    As I've stated before, each athlete is different. It takes years for an athlete to find out which programs that their body responds to. There is no single way. The only way to know what's best for you is simply trial and error over the course of several seasons.

    With the internet it is very easy to "build a better mousetrap" by reading a lot and over-thinking. It really doesn't matter what we (you, us) think, to be honest. The only thing that matters is what our bodies respond to.

    There are people who barely train and put up crap numbers in practice but have the Eye of the Tiger in a race situation and slay the field. There are others that do the opposite. There are those who are meticulous planners, trainers, that log every effort, every gym session, every pedal stroke, who have the latest, greatest gear...who get slower every season.

    The only way to find out what's best for you is to do something and pay attention to the results.
    Thanks carleton. Having reread this (your) comment, I can see the value of what you are saying.
    Nevertheless, I am genuinely at the lack of info available for our sport, when there is so, so much knowledge and understanding available for athletics and powerlifting. Perhaps it is that we are in a "cult / subculture sport". Tis a shame. I do have a coach now, so that will be interesting. And we are looking at utilising a specialist cycling, strength / conditioning coach out of Cambridge from the National Development centre. I am a bit of an interesting one, as it seems possible that I will be able to resurrect my old sport of Olympic lifting - as a Master - on the back weight training for cycling (real cool - but a diversion to this thread haha )

    Anyway, it would appear the top US, UK and Jamaican sprinters develop their raw power by doing lots of Power cleans, snatch pulls for the back/ posterior chain, squat jumps and box squats for the quads - and, interestingly, drop jumps (as a progression on from the old-school pylos) Oh. and quite a strong emphasis on single leg stair jumps. Finding out about "the why " has been really really interesting. there does seem to be a ton of crossover to our sport.

    It would also appear that the two most effective / complete excercises for developing devastating power (my term haha)is the power clean and the hang snatch. Those two are the most effective in developing the whole core / posterior chain neuro muscular responses required for athelics sprinting - and the actual core / posterior chain muscleature itself. Which, of course is the same muscleature as we use for sprinting !! (albeit with a slightly different hip angle.

    I find this side of our sport intriguing stuff ..
    Last edited by DHRB45; 08-16-15 at 10:51 PM.

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    power is the combination of force and speed. Being able to squat huge weight does not guarantee explosive power. You have to train the muscles to fire at a very high speed. One way to train that is to do downhill sprints in a very low gear and train your muscles to fire very fast. 200 or more rpm smoothly. I would do it on a road bike. You will probably not reach 200 rpm in a track sprint but you will have the ability to apply very explosive power at a lower rpm like 125-150. Do these high speed sprints with an out of saddle jump to over 150 rpm out of saddle and sit down and spin up to 200. Do three to four in a session until you slow down. Once you go under 200 you are done. You don't want to reinforce slow. Sounds counter intuitive that a super light gear would build power but it will if you combine it with strength work. Do this for 6 weeks and your jump will be explosive and you will have the leg speed to apply your strength (force).

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