Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-12-16, 11:43 AM   #1
Slowat50
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Bikes:
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Pedal strap retention

Guys, I'm a Director of a Product Design and Rapid Manufacturing company ([URL="http://www.ame-group.co.uk"]). I hope this thread isn't breaking any forum rules, moderators please feel free to let me know and delete the thread if so.

After scouring the web, I've recognised that seems to be difficult to find a good pedal strap retention system for track riding. Options could be developed for both single and double strap.

Two questions:

Am I right in this assumption? If I'm wrong, please point me in the right direction.

If I am right, what are the most popular pedals used, as a guide to prioritising design effort? Of course with rapid manufacturing, rolling out to multiple pedal options is entirely possible.

Thanks for the help.
Slowat50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 11:55 AM   #2
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Posts: 2,780
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "pedal strap retention". Isn't that what toeclips do? They work just fine and hardly need to be reinvented.


Granted, I don't ride the track. I do make serious both climbs and descents on fix gears using equipment and technology that hasn't changed much over the past century. (I use modern shoes and aluminum slotted cleats set up for the three bolt LOOK pattern and Shimano 600 semi-platform pedals with their proprietary toeclips, but the end result isn't very different from the rattraps and nailed cleats before I was born.)

Ben
79pmooney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 12:16 PM   #3
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,124
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowat50 View Post
I hope this thread isn't breaking any forum rules, moderators please feel free to let me know and delete the thread if so.
Talking to admins and getting approval, the thread is fine as long as you aren't actively selling a product.

Quote:
After scouring the web, I've recognised that seems to be difficult to find a good pedal strap retention system for track riding. Options could be developed for both single and double strap.
Have a look here for some common solutions: Pedals ? Up! Up! Up! An introduction to track sprint cycling

And here: Expert : E-PR107TK

Not to mention that some people use velcro straps as well: https://www.retro-gression.com/produ...s-pedal-straps

I've seen velcro straps used by world-class sprinters.

Quote:
what are the most popular pedals used, as a guide to prioritising design effort? Of course with rapid manufacturing, rolling out to multiple pedal options is entirely possible.
- Shimano SPD-SL (Ultegra or Dura Ace)
- LOOK KEO MAX 2

There are some pretty reliable homemade solutions out there.

I, personally, think there is small room for growth in the area. A pre-made solution to work with major pedal systems wold be great. Done right, it could become a standard. But probably wouldn't make a lot of money.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 01:30 PM   #4
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
You would probably make more money making a adapters.
ex) SRM saddle mount(aluminum version costs around $75), Spd-sl strap adapter, Speedplay strap adapter(people are selling for $75), and other track adapters
gycho77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 01:41 PM   #5
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,124
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
You would probably make more money making a adapters.
ex) SRM saddle mount(aluminum version costs around $75), Spd-sl strap adapter, Speedplay strap adapter(people are selling for $75), and other track adapters
- Very few people *need* SRM saddle mounts. Basically, only if you are racing UCI events (Masters Worlds, Elite Nationals, Elite Worlds). I had one and hated using it in daily training. I wanted to see my data on the handlebars, not when I got off the track and looked under the saddle. People put the head unit under the saddle because UCI makes them. If you don't have to, don't do it.

- Very few sprinters use Speedplay pedals. Of the 3 most popular pedal systems (Shimano, LOOK, and Speedplay) Speedplays are the least-best for sprinting because of the small platform. The foot pivots slightly around the lollipop pedal.


I do firmly believe that even enduros and TT specialists will benefit from using pedal straps. But, it's a tough sell as the common perception is that pedal straps are to keep powerful sprinters from disengaging from the pedals. When in fact, a secondary benefit of using straps is the elimination of vertical "slop" of the foot in the shoe. The foot can rise a few to several millimeters inside of the shoe during a normal pedal stroke. If our cranks or pedals had that kind of slop, we would deem them crap. Yet we accept it in our shoes. For TT specialists looking for 1% gains, there it is. Probably much more than 1%.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 02:28 PM   #6
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
- Very few people *need* SRM saddle mounts. Basically, only if you are racing UCI events (Masters Worlds, Elite Nationals, Elite Worlds). I had one and hated using it in daily training. I wanted to see my data on the handlebars, not when I got off the track and looked under the saddle. People put the head unit under the saddle because UCI makes them. If you don't have to, don't do it.

- Very few sprinters use Speedplay pedals. Of the 3 most popular pedal systems (Shimano, LOOK, and Speedplay) Speedplays are the least-best for sprinting because of the small platform. The foot pivots slightly around the lollipop pedal.


I do firmly believe that even enduros and TT specialists will benefit from using pedal straps. But, it's a tough sell as the common perception is that pedal straps are to keep powerful sprinters from disengaging from the pedals. When in fact, a secondary benefit of using straps is the elimination of vertical "slop" of the foot in the shoe. The foot can rise a few to several millimeters inside of the shoe during a normal pedal stroke. If our cranks or pedals had that kind of slop, we would deem them crap. Yet we accept it in our shoes. For TT specialists looking for 1% gains, there it is. Probably much more than 1%.
I definitely agree with you about srm saddle mount amd speedplay.
However, I'm pretty sure that these adapters will be more popular than pedal strap retention system.
gycho77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 02:39 PM   #7
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,124
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
I definitely agree with you about srm saddle mount amd speedplay.
However, I'm pretty sure that these adapters will be more popular than pedal strap retention system.
Think about how many SRM seatmounts you will see at a normal local track vs how many pedal straps. You will see more pedal straps.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 03:10 PM   #8
Dalai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Bikes:
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Garmin under saddle mounts would be more popular than SRM mounts. As to the $75 SRM mount you are referring to, it is worth every penny. I will get around to writing a review shortly.
Dalai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 03:18 PM   #9
Dalai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Bikes:
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Again though at local events over the years, I have only once requested to cover the screen. Like Carleton mentions, in front is necessary for training, so my second bike is wired to the bars and only my good bike under the saddle.
Dalai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 03:28 PM   #10
Dalai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Bikes:
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Disagree about straps offering gains for enduros (definitely aero losses). Tight shoes with solid 3 strap retention is fine. Especially as at least one study shows even elites don't pull up.

Biggest market for foot retention straps is in the fixie market , and even this is on the wane with gravel grinding the latest big thing.
Dalai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 04:45 PM   #11
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Garmin under saddle mounts would be more popular than SRM mounts. As to the $75 SRM mount you are referring to, it is worth every penny. I will get around to writing a review shortly.

Zero dollar for a mount, but it's not saddle mount and you need a brake hole.
Still I am really happy woth this mount.
I usually use handlebar mount, so I barely use this mount.

And I can't to hear your review
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg image.jpeg (65.0 KB, 67 views)
gycho77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 05:23 PM   #12
Dalai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Bikes:
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
You lost me at brake hole...
Dalai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 05:52 PM   #13
Baby Puke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA
Bikes: Marin Stelvio, Pogliaghi SL, Panasonic NJS, Dolan DF3, Intense Pro24 BMX
Posts: 1,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Lack of a good readily available way to mount straps to a spd/LOOK-style pedal is one of the excuses that keeps me on clips-straps-slots(DA 7400's). Most have them mounted far forward of where I would like them and that is behind the ball of the foot and into the arch/high instep area. If something was easily available that also mounted them in the right place, i might bite.

BTW, I'm sure even enduros pul up in a start, but not disputing the aero drawbacks. However, if outdoors, straps can be put under ​shoe covers...
Baby Puke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 06:20 PM   #14
Dalai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Bikes:
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
What is this outdoors you speak of?

Standing starts fair call, but still nowhere near the same forces for a pursuit start compared to a kilo or shorter - especially not for me...
Dalai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 06:49 PM   #15
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,124
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Disagree about straps offering gains for enduros (definitely aero losses). Tight shoes with solid 3 strap retention is fine. Especially as at least one study shows even elites don't pull up.
I disagree. I think most (if not all) shoes cannot eliminate 100% of the foot movement within the shoe. The fixing will have to be external. I've never used custom shoes. The nicest track shoes I've used were Bonts...and those fit like clogs But, I did really like the cupping of my heel within the shoe.

I know the feet make a lot of turbulence, but why not make some along these lines:



But covered on the top layer with stuff like this:



AND... if you make the strap long and wide enough, it could have aero benefits over bare straps or bare laces, to go along with the tightness benefits.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 07:23 PM   #16
Dalai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Bikes:
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Aero straps... I like!
Dalai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 08:19 PM   #17
Flatballer
No matches
 
Flatballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eastern PA
Bikes: two wheeled ones
Posts: 10,650
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
That's actually kind of brilliant. Straps are legal, covers are not (indoors). So at what point does a big wide aero strap turn into a shoe cover? Could you cover all the way to the ankle? Interesting.
Flatballer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-16, 09:24 PM   #18
grav.digr
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
black line sprinting out of RSA is making a rather nice retention strap. works great w most pedals and not too spendy.
grav.digr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-16, 12:53 PM   #19
Slowat50
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Bikes:
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks very much for the input guys. I wonder if the lack of strap retention on spd's / lack of desire for the product, is a bit chicken and egg.

The other issue of course is that in a normal manufacturing environment, tooling costs would be prohibitive given the comparatively small market volume of track cycling. In a rapid manufacturing environment however, volume production is not necessary.

I didn't ask about the various device mounts as I'm already convinced there's a market. I'll keep you posted about the strap retention products.

This thread has helped, I suspected that spd would be first to go for, that seems to be confirmed.

Thank you all.
Slowat50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-16, 04:54 PM   #20
Dalai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Bikes:
Posts: 1,995
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Straps are more commonly used in track sprinting, an even smaller subset of an already small subset. If you made a thin but wide aero strap to cover the shoes laces/velcro strap, you would definitely open the market to enduros.
Otherwise just make them in cool colours to just open up your market to the hipster fixie crowd. Though even this will be a hard market to break into without the NJS stamp needed for street cred...
Dalai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-16, 06:33 PM   #21
brawlo
Senior Member
 
brawlo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Australia
Bikes:
Posts: 582
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
I use straps and many I know that use straps retain them with zip ties. While there are some nice retention systems out there (I particularly like the Hoy option and a similar system option on Upupup that attaches to the clasp on Shimano pedals) zip ties are a few cents each and super easily replaceable. It would be hard to beat those economics for Shimano users.
brawlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-16, 07:46 PM   #22
Baby Puke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA
Bikes: Marin Stelvio, Pogliaghi SL, Panasonic NJS, Dolan DF3, Intense Pro24 BMX
Posts: 1,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
I use straps and many I know that use straps retain them with zip ties. While there are some nice retention systems out there (I particularly like the Hoy option and a similar system option on Upupup that attaches to the clasp on Shimano pedals) zip ties are a few cents each and super easily replaceable. It would be hard to beat those economics for Shimano users.
Could you point us to the system on Upupup? That sounds like what I'm looking for, but I just looked at the site and couldn't find anything.
Baby Puke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-16, 08:19 PM   #23
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Could you point us to the system on Upupup? That sounds like what I'm looking for, but I just looked at the site and couldn't find anything.
Shimano spd-sl version
SPD-SL ? Up! Up! Up! An introduction to track sprint cycling

and other
Pedals ? Up! Up! Up! An introduction to track sprint cycling
gycho77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-16, 09:21 PM   #24
brawlo
Senior Member
 
brawlo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Australia
Bikes:
Posts: 582
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Chris Hoy's version was the neatest I think and my favourite

brawlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-16, 09:47 PM   #25
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,124
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
The only down side of using the zip ties with the Shimano system is that once they are on, they are on. It's not easy to remove them.

There were race nights where I would just ride the enduro races for training and to support teammates, because I'm a fat ass and I provide a great draft

It would be very nice to quickly remove the straps or strap holder altogether like the Exustar system where they just slide out.

But, I have zero complaint about reliability of using zip ties (in case anyone is wondering). I'd have one set of zip ties last a full season. And then when I did notice that one was broken, I also noticed that the 2nd zip tie was enough to hold the system together.

Remember, the zip ties don't bear any load. They are just there to hold the strap in place until you cinch it tight.

Even velcro would work.

Oh sh*t...I just had a great idea...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.

Last edited by carleton; 06-15-16 at 04:13 AM.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:36 PM.