Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-15-17, 06:08 AM   #26
dunderhi
Trackie
 
dunderhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: 150 miles from Ttown
Bikes: Track: Little Wing, XTRACK, Electron Pro, SuperCorsa, Paramount, & Thunderdrome
Posts: 407
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
And when people get into that habit and then move to a short steep track it gets ugly.
How about Madisons? Do think both team mates should stay at the bottom all of the time? Certainly, if half the field is capable of moving up track every other lap without incident, then a few dropped racers in points race should be able to do the same.
dunderhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-17, 08:23 AM   #27
bitingduck
Senior Member
 
bitingduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 3,074
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
How about Madisons? Do think both team mates should stay at the bottom all of the time? Certainly, if half the field is capable of moving up track every other lap without incident, then a few dropped racers in points race should be able to do the same.
Not at all, and yes, I've ridden more than a few. In a madison everybody is expecting there to be slow riders at the upper part of the track and moving across the track. And the situation you've called dangerous (the whole pack having to pass slow riders at the bottom) happens many, many times per race, with the riders moving even slower than a tempo rider. Collisions and near collisions *are* more frequent in madisons, in part because of all the crossing, and it does take a higher skill level and different attention than a points race or scratch race.
__________________
Track - the other off-road
http://www.lavelodrome.org
bitingduck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-17, 10:51 PM   #28
Divebrian
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Bikes:
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
A few observations (from my point of view) that may answer a few questions.
Rider 2 was on the black line and occupying the sprinters lane for 10 meters before rider 1's wheel touched the red line.
Rider 2 was clearly going faster than rider 1.
Rider 1 did not maliciously or quickly come down on rider 2.
If rider 2 had maintained his line and speed, contact would have been shoulder to shoulder....not back wheel to front wheel or handle bar to hip.

From my point of view, rider 2 was more experienced and had the presence of mind to avoid rider 1, who was slower and less experienced. This was not a national or world level competition, it was a club level race. The type of race in heat one where you could have an experienced number 1 seed going against an inexperienced last place seed. Alot of times with our attendance, we are just happy to have more than 3 people show up. My question was from the occupying the sprint lane vs impeding point of view. My thought is that rider 2 occupied the sprint lane and rider 1 impeded him. As I said, fortunately it had a positive outcome as rider 2 had the experience, speed and desire to keep it from going south. I also believe that if rider 2 had held his line and speed, rider 1 would have been the one hitting the deck as rider 2 was larger and appeared to have better bike handling skills.

If you made the same observations as myself and rider 2 held his line, contact occured and rider 1 went down, would you say that rider 2 occupied the sprint lane and rider 1 impeded? Or would you say that even though he was slower, rider 1 was initially ahead on the track and rider 2 had the obligation to avoid contact and go over the top and pass on the right?

Last edited by Divebrian; 05-15-17 at 11:17 PM.
Divebrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-17, 11:07 PM   #29
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,563
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 255 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
How about Madisons? Do think both team mates should stay at the bottom all of the time? Certainly, if half the field is capable of moving up track every other lap without incident, then a few dropped racers in points race should be able to do the same.
The difference is that in a Madison, the rest of the field expects the other half to move about as they do.

In a Madison, the Stayer's line is designated for the purpose of providing a safe rest/rolling area for the relief riders. The race happens under the stayer's line. This is not so during a points or scratch race. The entire width of the track is fair game.

One of the worst things one can do in a heated bunch race is to roll up to the boards and ride slowly until the pack comes around.

I've seen drama happen when an inexperienced rider sees faster guys approaching from behind and the inexperienced rider thinks he's doing them a favor by moving out of their way...by moving into their way. The thing to do is stay put in the sprinter's lane and let them overtake you. If you are really gassed, then leave the track. The notion that it's a good idea to roll around at the rail and regain your strength sounds good...but is not a good idea.

I've also seen random pull-ups cause an accident. "I was trying to let my teammate through!"...and proceeded to take out everyone trying to pass over the top of he and his teammate.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-17, 05:48 AM   #30
dunderhi
Trackie
 
dunderhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: 150 miles from Ttown
Bikes: Track: Little Wing, XTRACK, Electron Pro, SuperCorsa, Paramount, & Thunderdrome
Posts: 407
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
The difference is that in a Madison, the rest of the field expects the other half to move about as they do.

In a Madison, the Stayer's line is designated for the purpose of providing a safe rest/rolling area for the relief riders. The race happens under the stayer's line. This is not so during a points or scratch race. The entire width of the track is fair game.

One of the worst things one can do in a heated bunch race is to roll up to the boards and ride slowly until the pack comes around.

I've seen drama happen when an inexperienced rider sees faster guys approaching from behind and the inexperienced rider thinks he's doing them a favor by moving out of their way...by moving into their way. The thing to do is stay put in the sprinter's lane and let them overtake you. If you are really gassed, then leave the track. The notion that it's a good idea to roll around at the rail and regain your strength sounds good...but is not a good idea.

I've also seen random pull-ups cause an accident. "I was trying to let my teammate through!"...and proceeded to take out everyone trying to pass over the top of he and his teammate.
Maybe it's time for a poll of the tracks. Carleton, do the officials at D.L. instruct about to be lapped riders to stay low or do they waive them up track... long before they present any danger to the oncoming racers? It looks like LA doesn't, but they do at Ttown and Kissena. Maybe it's the length of the track and/or rider experience level implementation.

I'll add this to my list of questions for the Commisaires this weekend. Are there any other officiating types of questions that anyone wants me to ask?

Last edited by dunderhi; 05-16-17 at 06:20 PM.
dunderhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-17, 07:14 AM   #31
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,787
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 450 Post(s)
At Rock Hill, I was told by officials to move up to give room for the field.
topflightpro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-17, 09:51 PM   #32
bitingduck
Senior Member
 
bitingduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 3,074
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
In a Madison, the Stayer's line is designated for the purpose of providing a safe rest/rolling area for the relief riders. The race happens under the stayer's line.
Oh, the number of times I've wished that were actually true...

It's mostly true, and the more experienced and faster the field the more likely it is to be true. But when things slow down and people don't plan their tandem/triple/etc exchanges right it can really stack up. And I've seen races where the whole field slowed down and moved up like a points race so the exchanges were all happening between the blue and the rail. It generally works out ok, but there can be some interesting periods.




Quote:
If you are really gassed, then leave the track. The notion that it's a good idea to roll around at the rail and regain your strength sounds good...but is not a good idea.
Our general policy was always to let people lose one lap, but unless the race was really small (pretty rare) you'd get pulled when you lost a second lap. There are reasons you can be dropped that don't involve being totally gassed, but when people start losing multiple laps they're only going to keep doing it. I haven't raced in a few years, but I doubt that it's changed with the current race management.


Quote:
I've also seen random pull-ups cause an accident. "I was trying to let my teammate through!"...and proceeded to take out everyone trying to pass over the top of he and his teammate.
One of the benefits of a really good PA and nearly always having a dedicated announcer is that when people do sketchy things they hear about it moments later on the PA: "Rider A looks left and moves right..." with a little admonishment. It's very effective at getting people to look before they move.
__________________
Track - the other off-road
http://www.lavelodrome.org
bitingduck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-17, 06:06 AM   #33
theblackbullet
Senior Member
 
theblackbullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Georgia
Bikes: I don't even
Posts: 602
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
at Dick Lane, the previous track director was a "hold your line when getting lapped" guy. the current track director, going on 3rd season, initially pushed "move up track when getting lapped" but seems to finally have settled with "hold your line". Our track is so narrow, that if a lapped riding begins to move up track a little bit late, things can go bad quick. There's less margin for error. As a racer, it's what I prefer for DLV. On one of our big race weekends, we typically allow for a rider to become lapped once before being finished. On a weeknight race they are allowed to go down however many laps so long as they are safe in doing so.
theblackbullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-17, 02:32 PM   #34
johnbobby
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Bikes:
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I race at DLV as well and am very experienced at getting lapped. If I think I can get back on with the group and I'm just one lap down, I will move up track when there's a safe opportunity, and then use the banking to help myself get on the back of the group. Otherwise in my experience it's very difficult to merge back into the group from the pole lane. More than 1 lap down, I just stay in the pole lane, and probably quit the race soon.
johnbobby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-17, 07:21 PM   #35
dunderhi
Trackie
 
dunderhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: 150 miles from Ttown
Bikes: Track: Little Wing, XTRACK, Electron Pro, SuperCorsa, Paramount, & Thunderdrome
Posts: 407
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Okay, I asked the commisaires:

1) The sprint - different replies, but one said relative speeds didn't matter, since the rule is one bike length ahead (no overlap). The others said they would need to see the actual sprint to rule if it was impeding or proper. Part of their consideration is what the second rider could have done (move up track) vice what he actually did (backed off). It was stated that the rules only take you so far and after that, it requires a judgement call.

2) Lapped rider - One said move him up the track to get him out of the way. The others said that's not universal, but the best practice as an official is to let the riders do whatever they are most comfortable doing and counsel the riders that don't know what they are doing.

So, there you have it - all that I know. The good news is that I will be an apprentice official at least four UCI track events next month, so I will be learning much as I possibly can as a new official.
dunderhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:25 AM.


 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from real people!
What's your question?
Send