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Old 12-09-05, 07:24 PM   #1
MajorT
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I had a few taster sessions at Manchester Velodrome, i thought it was awsome and decided to get myself a track bike instead of using the ones that they hire out. I used Ebay as i was advised that i could get a bargain! I wanted a Bianchi Pista and was outbid then the Cannondale - outbid again. Determind not to loose out again i bid on a old italian Faggin complete track bike ( described as "only needing handlebar tape !") I won this one, however here's were the problems start. The bottom bracket was loose, there was no lockring, the handlebars were sealed in and the 51t chainring wasn't 1/8 and is very noisy - possible chain line problem. All the above i've managed to fix! But when i came to putting a 700 x 23 tyre on the front, there was no clearence for it - the tyre literally touch the top of the fork the best i could get to fit was a 22 which left about 2mm clearance. My question is did the old Italian frames have a really tight clearance or have i got a 650 fork on this bike? any advice would be appreciated.

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Old 12-09-05, 09:53 PM   #2
ZappCatt
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It sounds like you got a "pursuit bike" Do you have a link the auction? Any pix of the bike?

It came with wheels, right?

I searched and found out that "Faggin" was a champion track racer, and road bikes carry his name...but nothing about track bikes.

EDIT: From ceya's post, go to Viggorelli under BAHN. It looks like a standard track frame.
Edit2: Thanks 11.4 for the correct answer!

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Old 12-09-05, 10:28 PM   #3
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http://www.faggin.de/INDEX2.HTM

Stephen Roche from Ireland was sponsored by Faggin in the early 80s.

S/F,
CEYA!
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Old 12-09-05, 11:03 PM   #4
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Faggin did various track bikes, including a sloping pursuit bike for a 650C front wheel and a couple different regular 700C frames. Now if you had the former, you wouldn't even be able to get a 700C wheel into the fork, regardless of how narrow the tire was. So I'm assuming you have one of the regular 700C frames. Those were made in that period with extremely tight clearances, such that one often had to grind out some metal from under the fork crown just to get decent clearances. This was a common problem and the Faggins I often raced against had clearances such that a slight out-of-roundness on a tire was enough to clip the fork crown (and if you picked up a piece of gravel from the infield, you typically had an instant blowout). I expect you have a flat-top fork crown, although they did both flat-top and sloping. The flat-top has plenty of metal to grind out underneath the fork crown, plus you'll be able to drill for a front brake as well. Not a big problem, at least insofar as one had to deal with it as a routine matter back when these bikes were in production. I had Rickerts, Colnagos, etc. etc. that all had the same kind of too-tight clearances.
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Old 12-10-05, 12:41 AM   #5
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HI...

he has an old italian style track bike maybe a persuit one but the only way to be sure about that is checking the bb drop. and the seat tube angle. The reason u couldnt put a 23 mms tyre there is because that bike is for a track (I asume that u meant clinchers when u used the word tyres), and its italian... what i mean is this.... The bike was used to use TUBULARS, 22 mms TUBULARS no regular tyres or clinchers... I bet faggin himself could be shouting on his grave for that sacriledge commited on one of his frames hehehe

11.4 is right in many of his arguments.... but i dont agree on the part where he states about grind out the fork. Come one!... is a fagging not a bianchi pista or a fuji pista. I think the best solution if u are having to much problem is get a carbon fork and put a that thing there but please do not destroy that fork drilling it u know... I have a hescht and the fork clearance as 11.4 said is quite tight in my bike too but I use tubulars no regular tyres and those bikes werent intend to be used with regular tyres at all.. Frames must not be destroyed they must be preserve ass they meant to be...

Sorry for my poor english

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Old 12-10-05, 09:56 AM   #6
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My vote? Put a 20mm tire on it and ride it proudly. It's a track bike, fer chrissakes. It wasn't built for large tires, comfort, or (heaven forfend) fenders.
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Old 12-10-05, 10:19 AM   #7
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Hi again,
Thanks for your replies. Firstly it did come with wheels unfortunately clinchers Ė old maillard flip-flop high hubs. I have got some Campagnolo Shamals in black and would love to have them converted for track but not sure how too or the cost . I think 11.4 is right , if I wouldnít even be able to get a 700c wheel on a 650 fork then its probably just very tight clearance. It does mean I canít use a 23c unless I replace the fork. My concern was also that 23ís are supposed to be better for rolling resistance and grip. Again ultraman6970 youíre also right in what you say, I wouldnít want to change the frame. I wanted to keep it as vintage as possible. If I can use 22ís without my performance suffering too much or without loosing grip then it will be ok. Iím just glad that its just tight clearance and not something else. Iíll post some pics so you guys can see. Iíve just tried some 22ís again - it does seem very tight though. Thanks again.
1. 22mm
2. Bike
3. 23mm
4. 19mm tub
5. bike
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 22c.gif.jpg (92.4 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg f4.jpg (81.5 KB, 118 views)
File Type: jpg with a 23mm.jpg (99.9 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg with 19mm tub.jpg (49.6 KB, 51 views)
File Type: jpg f1.JPG (93.4 KB, 71 views)

Last edited by MajorT; 12-10-05 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 12-10-05, 01:35 PM   #8
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T,

Definitely that's a 700C frame. The Faggin 650C pursuit frame had a slanted top tube and some pretty wicked geometry. The clearance you're dealing with here is typical for the period. You have one of the later Faggin's -- the early ones had flat top fork crowns, but they went to the semi-sloping unicrowns later because they were slightly lighter and less expensive to assemble. Nice bike. Given the fork crown you have, I'd be cautious about grinding it out -- that was a typical (and usually necessary) solution with flat-top crowns that tended to force even closer clearances.

Your choice of tire will have a lot more to do with your ride than simply diameter per se. For a bike like this, there are plenty of nice 19 mm tubulars around that will work fine for you. I'd suggest one of the Tufo S3 Lite tubulars in a 145-165 gram range or so, or a Vittoria Evo Pista 19 mm. They're good tires at a reasonable price tag. It's not worth worrying about, frankly.
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Old 12-10-05, 05:57 PM   #9
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Thanks again for your replys. I'm alot happier with the frame now that i no its ok! So its just a matter of sorting out some tyres. The wheels that came with the bike take clinchers but as iv'e said above 23mm and possibly 22mm may not be an option. I do have a pair of campagnolo Shamals 16 spoke rear and 14 front - i would love to use these on the track but they need converting. I know that the front would be easy by using one of the available converters. however the rear wheel would need a new hub etc. any advise on this would be helpful. In the mean time i need some clinchers for a Manchesters 45 degree track, i'm 89 kilo's! and 20mm tyre is probably my max in width. I've read that the Veloflex Pave 22mm/Veloflex Master or Vredestien Fortezza are my best options, again any ideas would be much appreciated.
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Old 12-10-05, 10:12 PM   #10
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The Veloflex Master is quite popular including on steep wooden tracks. It has a tread that wraps fairly well around the tire, so you don't find yourself riding on sidewall. The Vredestein's aren't bad on the road but on the track tend to have a disproportionally high profile which may get you into clearance trouble again but also causes them to feel a bit more wobbly at speed on the bankings. However, you might think about going with tubulars. You'll like the performance, your choices are much broader, and pairs of tubular rims are quite inexpensive if you look around. There's some amazingly good old stock floating around at ridiculous prices -- I recently built up a couple pairs of wheels for teammates using new Mavic Mach 2 CD2 semi-aero tubular rims that I got at $9.95 a rim. Current Mavic Reflexes (also new) often go for $25-35 a rim on eBay. It pays to shop, not just for price but for selection. This is where eBay is very useful -- I think just about every committed track rider keeps an eye on it. I've run into Marty Nothstein, Yves Tournant, and others in this amazing and sometimes bizarre forum. Don't knock it -- it's the only place to find some really desirable track stuff (Shimano 7400-series toe clips, etc.). And you'll really like your bike built up with the right kind of wheels for the track.
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Old 12-11-05, 11:43 PM   #11
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HI again... man u have a cute track frame there... awesome bike well u have a 100% track bike, isnt weird for me that u coulndt get a clincher in there at all hehe..

BTW how much did u pay for it? 89 kilos... man u r heavy, so do i look, this is a patch solution ok? btw 45 degrees its fine, canadians have an indoor 50 degrees velodrome. awesome well.. buy or get some old set of road tubular wheels from somebody... do u remember when cassete wasnt even invented? I bet somebody from here have a nice campy pair somewhere and obviulsly ull get them quite cheapy cheapy price u know ...OH!... 36 spokes obviously... I got a set of mavics for 30 bucks here in the us....take the freewheel out, put the axle in the opposite direction, retrue the wheel again, oh set the bolts and stuff in the axle so u have now 120 mms and u r done!

The next step is buy a set of skewers but bolt on skwers.... the cost of that is like 10 dolars. the other thing u can do too is get those allen bolt on skewers and get only the rear wheel, apparently u have a nice set of road tubular wheels (maybe im wrong). so well, get the rear one. do the fix in the axle, retrue the wheel again. DONE!

Sincerily? use tubulars. The problem with the clincher is that u wont get not even a similar performance to a tubular specially in a track, no matter how much air preassure u put to them they will behave like a CAR RADIAL TIRE, dont know if u get what i mean. They will get flat in the bottom, where the clincher makes contact with the track. Specially in the curves or any time u want to jump over the pedals .. they will become sloopy, flipmsy... hope somebody could understand what im traying to say. Think on this... if u get that clincher's behavoir i nthe road can u imagine how much clincher deflection ull get in a track?? makes sense 4 u? 11.4 said something regarding this problem.

Well good luck and please do not put clinchers on that it would be a crime jejeje
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Old 01-06-06, 06:04 AM   #12
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Hello again,
Thanks for your advice again, I agree with both 11.4 and Ultraman6970. However I am still trying to get some tubular rims and may still try and convert my Campagnolo Shamals ( I read something about a uci ban on these so Iím not sure). So my final solution is to keep the existing clinchers ( I know Ultraman6970 may not be happy with this but until I get some tubs this is my only option) and use some Veloflex Masterís at 20mm this seems to cover the clearance problem Ė these go to 130psi. My chain line still makes some noise but its not too bad (see image).How much did I pay, the cost was £170 but I replaced the handlebars, stem, saddle, tyres, sprocket and bought a lockring so the thatís an extra £100 pounds. So as I said in my original post I thought I was getting a bargain but Iím not so sure now. But if it performs ok Iíll be happy Ė Iíve got five passes for Manchester Velodrome so Iíll let you know how it goes.
Thanks again.
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File Type: jpg IMG_0514.jpg (87.0 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0516.jpg (93.3 KB, 1787 views)

Last edited by MajorT; 01-06-06 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 01-06-06, 12:32 PM   #13
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The Vredestein Fortezzas are a relatively tall tire. If you must use clinchers then you might try the Conti Grand Prix 3000, 700x23 or smaller. They're a bit faster and lower profile with good grip. Then get some tubulars asap.

-Warren

P.S. I only get to ride at Manchester for Masters Worlds. I'm jealous that you can ride it often!
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Old 01-06-06, 03:47 PM   #14
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How easy is it to get a go at Manchester? Can you just phone up and book? What about Calshot of Herne Hill (bit closer to me)?

Anyway, back on topic, if you don't mind losing a rear road wheel, all you need to do is find a 16h track hub (not very easy unless you can afford a Royce or something), or use a 32h and skip every other hole. It's not perfect (basically you end up with the spokes on one side being in slightly the wrong place at the hub), but as long as the wheel is well built you shouldn't have any problems (don't quote me though ). I'm planning to do this myself with a Shamal front soon.

If you want to keep the wheel in one piece, you'll have to figure out some way of locking the pawls inside. On my own Shamal rear, I thought about replacing the three little springs with small lengths of steel rod, but it's very difficult to know how long they'd need be, or how well it would work. A thick glue like JB Weld or welding the body to the hub shell would work, but they can't be undone of course.
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