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  1. #1
    . monkey's Avatar
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    Best glue for tubulars on the track?

    I use continental glue for road use, never had a problem.
    I am also usually not on a 45 degree bank on the road.
    Someone suggested using something stronger for the track, like fasttack.
    What kind of glue do you use? Any other general suggestions for
    gluing tubulars for the track?

  2. #2
    Senior Member classic1's Avatar
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    Shellac

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    Vittoria RED , hard to get..classic stuff.

    Panasonic or Soyo Japanese glue awesome stuff.

    Better than Vittoria clear, Hutchinson and Continental.

    S/F,
    CEYA!

  4. #4
    spinlikehell mickster's Avatar
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    I have used Continental and Vittoria Mastik clear glues exclusively for the track and have had no problems with them. IME traditional hard setting track glues - like Shellac - are hard to find over here in the UK and as a result most trackies I know use regular 'clear' glues like Conti, Vittoria and tubasti without any problems.
    I think that more important than which glue is used is how well the tubs are glued to the rim; no glue - traditional or not - is going to make up for a poorly glued tub.

    These wheels are being used on a number of tracks in the UK, indoors and out, with lengths and bankings varying from 400m/26 deg to 143m/46deg. Races a mixture of endurance and srpints, though I'm no match sprinter.

    Stretch the tyre on a rim first. Clean yr rim with acetone. Build the glue up on a new rim in thin layers - I usually put 3 layers on new rims, and 2 on the tub tape. Allow to cure for preferably 24hrs+ before using.
    The site below has links to some research comparing the strength of various different tub glues - it also repeats the tests for the same glue/tyres on carbon vs aluminium rims. The bottom line is that Conti glue was best on alloy rims, Vittoria on carbon: http://www.engr.ku.edu/~kuktl/index.html

    I'm considering trying the Tufo Extreme tub tape, as this is claimed to be suitable for track use and looks top be less hassle than using glue. Has anyone here had any experience of this tape? If so, please share (eg what rim type, what tyre, what sort of track etc).

    Cheers!

    mickster

  5. #5
    Senior Member WithNail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickster

    I'm considering trying the Tufo Extreme tub tape, as this is claimed to be suitable for track use and looks top be less hassle than using glue. Has anyone here had any experience of this tape? If so, please share (eg what rim type, what tyre, what sort of track etc).

    Cheers!

    mickster
    I just put the tufo tape on my fiamme red label aloy rims with tufo s3 tires. I like them, it's much less messy and it looks cleaner. I am going to ride them on Piccolo Velodrome (paved, outdoor) tonight or tomorrow for the first time so I will let you know then. From riding them around town a bit though they feel very solid and I have no complaints.

  6. #6
    spinlikehell mickster's Avatar
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    Withnail

    Good stuff - pull some quick chops down off the banking and let me know how the tape holds up .
    Seriously, I'm sure it's fine - have read elsewhere of others using it without any probs.

    I've used the Tufo S3s (Pros and Lites) and have been really happy with them - the Lites were a best-race-only tyre for me as they only lasted about a season, but both types gripped well on wooden and concrete tracks and mounted nice and straight.

    mickster

  7. #7
    Forum Admin lotek's Avatar
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    I've used the Tufo tape on both traditional tubular (conti sprinters)
    and on tufo road elites. both on traditional box rims (gp4 and gel330s)
    the only problem I had with the tufo tape is clean up after removing the
    tire is more of a hassle than with tubasti or any other traditional glue.
    The tufo tape left a sticky gummy mess on the rims that did not come
    off easily.

    Marty
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  8. #8
    Member climbo's Avatar
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    stronger glue for the track, that is absurd. Think about it, on the track you use the banks to make turns so you never really lean the bike over and put tons of pressure the tyres laterally. On the road is where you corner at high speed on flat roads so the bike is much more leaned over and tyre would be more prone to roll off at any stage.

  9. #9
    Senior Member classic1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by climbo
    stronger glue for the track, that is absurd. Think about it, on the track you use the banks to make turns so you never really lean the bike over and put tons of pressure the tyres laterally. On the road is where you corner at high speed on flat roads so the bike is much more leaned over and tyre would be more prone to roll off at any stage.
    Nah, it's not. Think of the G's when you swing up from a turn on a velodrome, or the force on the tyre when you race around the bends of a flat track. I've seen riders roll incorrectly stuck on tyres on the track. It's a MAJOR faux pas. Plus, if you use something tacky like road glue, the tyre moves around. You don't want that happening.

  10. #10
    Member climbo's Avatar
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    flat track sure, but velodrome swing-ups versus downhill at 80 km/h in a corner? I can't imagine the force on the track being higher. Incorrectly glued tyres will roll on anything but having to use a certain type of glue for a track tyre is bogus. If it stays on your road wheel under severe punishment, it should sure stay on your track wheel with the same glue and application method.

  11. #11
    Senior Member classic1's Avatar
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    I'd still argue that there is more pressures on the tyre on a velodrome than on the road.

    I thought of another reason you want the best glue possible on the track - in hindsight probably the main one. Should have thought of it before.

    Blowouts. You don't want the tyre rolling off when you puncture. Rolling is a possiblity with road glue, coz it's always tacky. Near impossible with Shellac or track specific glue. I punctured in a warm up at the top of the banking at Launceston once, with a 100 riders on the track. I'm was grateful the tyres were stuck on with shellac.!!

  12. #12
    Member climbo's Avatar
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    yeah, blowouts are not good anywhere, least on a banked track.

  13. #13
    Senior Member classic1's Avatar
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    If you blowout on a corner in a crit, you're gonna end up on your arse anyway, whether the tyre stays on or not. On the straights, it doesn't matter one way or the other.

    At least if the tyre stays on the rim on a velodrome you and everyone else still has half a chance!

  14. #14
    Oldbie bike racer
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    Here is some tire adhesion testing for various glues.

    http://www.bsn.com/Cycling/articles/cements.html

    Swing up the steep banking quickly and there is lots of force trying to roll a tire off. I've used FasTak, Vittoria Mastik One, and Panaracer-all work just fine. The smaller tubes are easier to travel with and less likely to atttract attention from TSA et al, who will confiscate these "dangerous substances".


    -Warren

  15. #15
    Member climbo's Avatar
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    so in those results (if I read them right), Fasttack isn't all that good comparitively when all I read about is how hard it sticks tyres on?

  16. #16
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    Yes, but how good does it need to be, or how hard is it to apply or how much does it cost? I've done about 350 criteriums and near 100 days on the track with Fastak and never had a problem, so...

    Perhaps, of greater interest is some recent testing that shows that power requirements are slightly lower if the tire is more firmly attached to the rim. Testing showed Vittoria was better than Fastak by 10-20(?) watts. IF this matters, then Vittoria could be the best choice. $2.95/tube at Excel Sports and Nashbar. :-)



    -Warren

  17. #17
    spinlikehell mickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WithNail
    I just put the tufo tape on my fiamme red label aloy rims with tufo s3 tires. I like them, it's much less messy and it looks cleaner. I am going to ride them on Piccolo Velodrome (paved, outdoor) tonight or tomorrow for the first time so I will let you know then. From riding them around town a bit though they feel very solid and I have no complaints.
    Withnail - Did ya get to try the Tufo tape out?? How did ya get on?

    mickster

  18. #18
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    The best and strongest stuff I use on the track is a japaenese rim cement called soyo. I got it at my lbs cheaper than this, but if you want, you can try this place: http://fixedgear.americancyclery.com...s/Rim_Cement/1

    Also, the LBS that I bought it at has a website and might be able to send it out to ya.
    www.threesports.com. Hopefully thats some help.

    Oh yeah, the only downside to soyo rim cement is that is HIGHLY toxic and you must use it in very well ventilated area.

  19. #19
    Senior Member CafeRacer's Avatar
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    I'm with the first response....shellack. I did a pair of road wheels for a very large man with the stuff. The steps to prep the rim are the same, several small layers, but instead of putting a layer on the rim and tire letting it sit for 5 min and installing it you fire a layer on the rim and quickly install it and start centering it. Its somthing only wrenches who have mastered tubular tires should do. If I ever needed to do a pair of my own wheels I'd pay my shops head mechanic to do it for me hahahaha.

    J

  20. #20
    Dharma Dog lhbernhardt's Avatar
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    Shellac used to be used by the 6-day pros. There's a good book, probably no longer in print, called "Bicycle Mechanics" by Steve Snowling, who was Tony Doyle's mechanic. It's got the best description of how to glue on a tire using shellac that I've found. It's quite an involved procedure. You need to start with a new rim, that you first cork (put cork in the spoke nipple wells, so the wheel already has to be built), then you score the rim (scratch into it with a sharp tool), then apply daily layers of shellac for about a week, then let it sit for a month before applying shellac to the tire and putting it all together. I've never used it, but I understand the tire comes off very clean. If you need to replace a tire, you can set fire to the shellac on the rim to soften it.

    Too much hassle for me. I just use 3M Fast Tack trim cement. Not all auto parts stores have it, and most counter guys will have no idea what it is. One layer on the rim, one layer on the tire, wait about ten minutes, then mount the tire. I suggest wearing latex gloves, and expect the gloves to rip all to hell during the process, especially if you're mounting a Tufo or any other Czech-made tire, even if it's been stretching on a dry rim for months. After 24 hours, the tire will not come off unless you pry into it with a screwdriver. Not recommended for tubs on the road, as it'll take longer to get that tire off than replacing the tube on a clincher, but great for track. I've used it for the past 30 years and (knock on wood) never rolled a tire, even after blowouts.

    - Luis

  21. #21
    cxmagazine dot com pitboss's Avatar
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    you know, ther was some discussion about Fasttack a while back and how they had changed their formula or something along those lines. I cannot locate it, but if anyone can, please repost.

    It shouldn't change the use of it on the track, but it had to do with heating the glue up and it losing its adhesive qualities to some degree (meaning involuntary dismount of the tire). I would think this applies to braked wheels as opposed to non-braked ones used in velodromes.

    Also - any word back on direct tufo tape experience from BF members? Mickster had a good suggestion regarding chops and the true test of a glue...
    Deathlap - cyclocross, training, beer,...escape hatch

  22. #22
    Senior Member WithNail's Avatar
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    I've probably only put in a good 50 or so hours of riding on the tufo tape, with no problems so far. I haven't changed a tire either so I can't comment on that but I will once I change them.

    Edit: I did quite a few chops up and down the banks and have even ridden them pretty hard on the street and they've held up just fine.

  23. #23
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    Here's a thread on Fast Tack and its reformulation. A couple of us finally dug into the stories and at least came up with a little info. Hope this helps.

    http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16490

  24. #24
    spinlikehell mickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [165]
    you know, ther was some discussion about Fasttack a while back and how they had changed their formula or something along those lines. I cannot locate it, but if anyone can, please repost.

    It shouldn't change the use of it on the track, but it had to do with heating the glue up and it losing its adhesive qualities to some degree (meaning involuntary dismount of the tire). I would think this applies to braked wheels as opposed to non-braked ones used in velodromes.
    [165]
    I've remember similar talk about a change in Fastack's formulation but can't find the discussions at the mo. I recall the alleged problem being to do with a change in the solvent used which was supposed to affect the solvent used to attach the basetape to some brands of tyres. People claimed they'd seen warnings from 3M to this effect advising against using it to glue tubs. Again, this is all only heresay as I don't have anything about it to hand.

    TBH, I've never used Fastack myself (although lots of my buddies have - and have been fine) as it was always easier to buy a pot of Conti or Mastik 1 and they last for ages and work well, so never felt need to try it. All the change of formula rumours just made it seem less hassle to use something specifically designed for the job.

    One resource I have got is at here which tests a bunch of different glues - including Fastack - on both alu and carbon rims. Bottom line there was that Fastack wasn't as good a performer as most other glues anyway, though from the numbers of people who have used it without probs its probably 'good enough' even if not the best.

    HTH

    mickster

  25. #25
    spinlikehell mickster's Avatar
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    withnail
    Thx for the update. Good to hear this from someones direct experience rather than just hearsay. I'm going to give the Tufo Extreme tape a try at some point - probably when my pot of Mastik 1 finally dries / runs out

    mickster

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