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  1. #1
    One speed: FAST ! fordfasterr's Avatar
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    Flying 200m times...

    I went out to the track for practice today...



    At the end of the session, I tried my first timed flying 200m .

    We practiced it 3 times before I ran it timed. I raced against another guy who was faster than me by a few inches.. He inched me out on the straight away.. but It gave me an incentive to push harder.

    I ran it in 13.84 sec.

    My gearing was 50x15.

    I know I can do much better, specially if I am fresh.

    I got to train with a guy who was at the olympics 3 seperate times. He gave me lots of good advice and timed me on the 200m.

    I had a blast ! =)

    I hope to improve on that time with more practice.
    Last edited by fordfasterr; 05-05-06 at 12:20 PM.
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  2. #2
    this bike is an aqueduct Matthew A Brown's Avatar
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    Damn, nice. None of us broke 14 our first time down there. Grumble. = )
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    not bad, 10 secs is your goal... so push harder now

  4. #4
    Back to being a Clyde.... ZappCatt's Avatar
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    Congrats!
    My first one at the Intro to Racing CLinic was 14.3(49x16)
    The next week at the Sprint Tourney i got it down to 13.78(49x14)

    My goal is sub 13 by the end of the season.

  5. #5
    4 letter tirade
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    Have you seen any of the articles on the strategies behind doing the flying 200 and how to apply them to any track you go to? I have read them but dont know where they are? anyone......
    When I practice it with other people I have found it much more fun to try to catch someone (let them start a few bike lenghts ahead) instead of doing them by myself

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    One speed: FAST ! fordfasterr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZappCatt
    Congrats!
    My first one at the Intro to Racing CLinic was 14.3(49x16)
    The next week at the Sprint Tourney i got it down to 13.78(49x14)

    My goal is sub 13 by the end of the season.
    I am going to shoot for sub 13's as well. Lets see who can get to it first ! =)


    Quote Originally Posted by ultraman6970
    not bad, 10 secs is your goal... so push harder now

    Holy crap ! I can't imagine doing that almost 4 seconds faster... thats silly fast.



    Quote Originally Posted by cardstock
    Have you seen any of the articles on the strategies behind doing the flying 200 and how to apply them to any track you go to? I have read them but dont know where they are? anyone......
    When I practice it with other people I have found it much more fun to try to catch someone (let them start a few bike lenghts ahead) instead of doing them by myself

    Link ?
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  7. #7
    Back to being a Clyde.... ZappCatt's Avatar
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    Fixed Gear Fever had a thread on "TT drop-down marks" it had some discussion of strategy at different tracks.

    I have been told that the best line is to take is to make a diagonal line from the apex of turn 2 to the outside of the pole at the start of turn 3. This will give you some benefit from "coming down the hill" will allow you to take the shortest line and be gradual enough that you will not have to do any "twitchy" moves to slow you down.

    Depending on your gear and your control of your bike you will stand longer or shorter in the run up to the start.

    You should aim to be going full speed at the 200 meter line(not jumping that late, but rather already going full speed and trying to hold it for all you have)

    It was mentioned that it is better to getting on top of the gear early and spinout than to be chasing the gear during the TT.

  8. #8
    TJ
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    Just bragging, what else...

    Just bragging, what else...

    Hi Ford,
    Nice times!! For my first time on the track in 2004, I got a flying 200 of 14.5 on my Bianchi Pista with 48x16 using 15 year old mountain bike shoes with toe clips and single strap. At the time, I was 40 yrs old and the bike was one week old, this was my first track bike. I was riding 200 miles a week as a messenger so I had a good base with plenty of intervals on the streets of NYC. All of that definitely helped. When I rode that 200m I felt that I was spun out of gear but after reading many posts about rpms, I can see that I will have to get many more rpms out of my legs before I can consider myself to be spun out. Still I felt I could have used a few more gear inches. Also smoked nearly a pack of Newports daily. Anyway, like the title of my post says, I'm just bragging. On 04/08/2006 I'm going to do a 6 mile road ITT. That may be enough incentive to persuade me to quit smoking and concentrate on riding faster. Smoking is just something I enjoy, just as I enjoy cycling. The only thing about smoking and cycling is that I'll have to decide how serious I want to become with racing. Since I normally do all my riding alone the ill effect that smoking has on my physical condition doesn't come into play. I enjoy riding hard and in the future I'd like to get serious with Master's racing on the track so I know that I should quit smoking. I love to ride the track bike. The bike just seems to beg you to push it harder and harder.

    My only riding in 2005 has been a 5 mile each way daily commute on the track bike. On New Years day 2006, I rode the track bike on a group ride with the local racing club. I impressed the other guys once on that ride by skidding...sliding to a stop on a downhill at a red light. One guy said, "I got to hand it to ya, you didn't wreck anybody!" We rode 40 miles that day and I maintained pace with the leaders and at times pushed the pace. I did not suck wheel that day. I even dropped back a few times to pull a couple of people back up to the pack. The last time I dropped back to pull another rider back up is when I bonked hard. I had to stop for a candy bar and water as we approached the entry back into town. When I stepped off the bike for this stop I had tunnel vision and was seeing spots I was actually close to blacking out. I was fine after I got the snickers bar and water. This ride started at 12noon and I hadn't eaten anything since 2pm the previous day. All this and still smoking Newports nearly a pack a day. Yada, yada, yada,...brag, brag, brag.

    This post looks a tad bit long (understatement) sorry to bore anyone who might have read to this point in the post. Oh, well, I guess that writing online somewhat anonymously allows me to go on and on without regard to whether anyone cares to read it or not. I guess this type of writing is better reserved for a blog or a diary but as I'm somewhat anonymous, I'm going to post this anyway. Sorry if this gets posted multiple times but my browser keeps timing out when attempting to submit my reply. I am on DSL.

    Peace
    TJ

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZappCatt
    Congrats!
    My first one at the Intro to Racing CLinic was 14.3(49x16)
    The next week at the Sprint Tourney i got it down to 13.78(49x14)

    My goal is sub 13 by the end of the season.

    well u r pedaling like 90 cms more using 49x14 than using 49x16... and u just got down less than a second?? I mean... dont take me wrong ok? but think in this one... U just add like 2.5 feets more by revolution in your pedals tight? well if u think that u just keep the same ammount of revolutions U just have get 10 or 12 secs in 200 meters... not less than a second as u did ... u didnt improve not even a second... I think u have to meditate about this and think what was wrong and why u practically didnt improve at all putting more juice to your bike... by the opposite u just did it worse.

    The answer is that u r very slow and u need to get more power and as an advice, do not get that (power) using heavy gears Because ull make the situation even worse. Not even in my peack of my carrer as a tracker I put 49x14, not even think about it, maybe in the road but in a track?? and at the beggining of the season????? who is teaching u dude??? Track training is super simple, pure and u have to be very carefull because u can screw up big time your improvements if u do stuff such a put those heavy gears... but is your problem not mine... if u continue using such a heavy gears like that even a turtle with 2 legs tied could win u an sprint easily.. Even I can do it with 40 pounds everweight...

    When i was 15 y/o i was doing under 13 secs in 200 meters using 50x16 at the end of the season. And when I was junior (17) i was doing 11 secs using 50x15 in a concrete 45 degress track. When I was cat-1 I was doing under 10 secs and i wasnt the best sprinter... maybe many of u dont know but in a sprinter race if the racer sprint or launch the attack before the 200 meters line u end up doing like 9 secs... and usually u get 10 / 11 secs basically sprinting the last 150 meters, so imagine the power and speed u have to have to do that...

    Well my advice is continue riding with 49x16 and race using 49x15 notihng more than that... well cya around...

  10. #10
    Back to being a Clyde.... ZappCatt's Avatar
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    Um6970,

    1) I used a heavy gear because I CAN NOT SPIN!!! When I did my first TT, my butt was bouncing all over the place because I was spun out....
    2) That gear was ONLY used for the TT, I rode 49x15 for the actual sprint tourney.
    3) As I have said many times, I am old, fat and out of shape. I have put under 100 miles in on a bike this year. I am 6'3" and 220.
    4) I have owned a road bike for less than 2 years, and probably have a total of 250 miles in.
    5) Did I tell you I am a fat guy who can not spin?
    6) My road bike has 180mm cranks...my track bike has 170mm cranks...have I told you that I can't spin yet? I have probably put in a total of 70 miles on the track.
    7) Who is coaching me? No one....I get to the track a couple of times a month(10 times in my life)...have been on my road bike once this year(5 miles or so).

  11. #11
    One speed: FAST ! fordfasterr's Avatar
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    I was timed on the 5th lap of a keirin the same day.. I ran the lap in 24.31 seconds.

    that was 333 meters.

    I was using 50x15 and I could not spin it out .lol not enough strength yet.
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  12. #12
    Back to being a Clyde.... ZappCatt's Avatar
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    just to be clear...when I say I spun out, I mean that my body could not smoothly spin the cranks any faster without bouncing all over the place. I was only hitting between 125 and 130 rpms on the 49x16.

    I went to the larger gear to try to use my weight and the banking to get up to 120 rpms or so..if I had been able to, that would have been the 13.3 which was my goal for that TT.

    The concept of a "season" is only valid if you are actually training to a plan. At Hellyer we have 3-4 sprint tourneys(one every month) so to ride a small gear since it is only "early season" would take away several of those opportunities. Our Regional USACycling director actually wants to hold our Regional championship in May.....

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZappCatt
    Um6970,

    1) I used a heavy gear because I CAN NOT SPIN!!! When I did my first TT, my butt was bouncing all over the place because I was spun out....
    2) That gear was ONLY used for the TT, I rode 49x15 for the actual sprint tourney.
    3) As I have said many times, I am old, fat and out of shape. I have put under 100 miles in on a bike this year. I am 6'3" and 220.
    4) I have owned a road bike for less than 2 years, and probably have a total of 250 miles in.
    5) Did I tell you I am a fat guy who can not spin?
    6) My road bike has 180mm cranks...my track bike has 170mm cranks...have I told you that I can't spin yet? I have probably put in a total of 70 miles on the track.
    7) Who is coaching me? No one....I get to the track a couple of times a month(10 times in my life)...have been on my road bike once this year(5 miles or so).
    HI again...

    The spin problem is easy to fix... rule number 1... "DO NOT USE CLINCHERS NO MORE!!! GET TUBULARS!!!"... get tufo tubular clinchers if u cant afford new wheels. The jumping problem over the seat will start going away as the season goes by.

    Second advice... use your road bike as a fixed gear... take the crancks out and put the 170 mms in the road bike. Again... USE TUBULARs/tubular clinchers. Do distances using 42x18 (listen to me OK?)... ride 30 mins in the road and then come back to your house (1 hour total), 1 hour is more than enough. Do that like for 1 week... Everything will hurt because u have to get used to the cadence... do not force yourself OK?? do it quietly... for sure u have a cateye device so control your pedaling using it, using 42x18 (or similar) easily u can get 80/100 rpms (i sugest try to stay that hour at 80 rpms). The trick is get your body used to high cadence.

    Second week... the same but longer time (1.5 or 2 hours)... Oh go to the road 3 times per week that's all, u need to rest (believe it or not).

    3rd week... I want u to change the 18T cog for a 17T cog... the same stuff again... 2 hours... blah blah. Dont worry if u feel that u arent developing strengt OK? thats natural... strengnght is developed with the time and after all is more efficient sombody who can stay pedaling for hours at high cadences than a super slow tank!.

    4th week I want to do sprints... but sprints seated... i mean changes in the cadence.. start accelerating little by little... so u'll do a progression... go out for 2 hours and do 4 times the sprint stuff. 200 meters "sprints"... once the sprint finished u have to continue pedaling as usual... 80/90 rmps... do that for 2 weeks...

    6th week... if everything went ok u'll be faster for the 7th week, and u should be thinner aswell.

    Go to the track time to time, but do not abuse of the gears... try to ride light... maybe 50x16 but no more than that... u lack of 2 things, agility and power... and to have power u have to work agility 1st u know...

    This is the way u train a newbie (and kids) basically, old school training i must say too. If u have more questions let me know... hope this could help other people. I'm just letting u know a very basic traning plan because traning plans depends of the rider and other factors. As an example I used to weight 65 kgs (do the math ok?) when I retired from racing i was 68 kgs, now im like 85 kgs or so (maybe more) but I still have a lot more cadence than a people who might be traning everyday. I learned to spin the way I told u... sadly and this is the most shocking thing for many people who wants to try racing... is that when u think that your spining is very good and u race for the very 1st time, then u realize that u arent because 1 thing is traning other one is racing... but well that is something people has to learn the hard way....

    Good luck

  14. #14
    Back to being a Clyde.... ZappCatt's Avatar
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    It was not an issue of my tire slipping on the track and spinning..it was my legs could not spin any faster, and thus I could go no faster. I was running tubular tires.
    As I said before, I do not have time to get out..either on my road bike or fixed gear.

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    Oh boy....

  16. #16
    Oldbie bike racer
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    Tubulars or clinchers won't affect your ability to spin, at least not in the range Zapp is looking for. Fixed gear on the road is useful, but not required. In fact, sometimes people are afraid too spin too fast with a fixed gear on the road because they know they can't just coast if things get a bit hairy.

    Better to use the normal road equipment and spin up to 120+ and try to hold that against low resistance (down a slight hill) for 10+ seconds. Then work on increasing the rpm's you can hold for 10-20 seconds. Sprints on the flat for 10-12" out of the saddle in a 53x17,18 are good practice too.

  17. #17
    it's your bicycle bells popdelusions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraman6970
    When I was cat-1 I was doing under 10 secs
    Where'd you do this and when? Bogota? I'd say you were a pretty impressive sprinter in your time if you were doing under 10 seconds repeatedly, since the officially recognized world record is just over 10 seconds, I believe, and Harnett's sub-10 was taken at altitude, thus impossible to match at most tracks anyone here's likely to be racing on.

    I hate to call BS (and I apologize for doing so if I'm off-base), but just want to point out that ZappCatt's times are pretty damned good, especially so for somebody who doesn't get out to the track that much and there's no reason to discourage him.

    Not sure if anyone's mentioned it before but there's an interesting mathematical model of the flying 200 at analyticcycling.com; probably worth checking out if you REALLY want to plan your drop down point and trajectory.
    Last edited by popdelusions; 04-25-06 at 06:03 PM.

  18. #18
    Senior Member classic1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraman6970
    When I was cat-1 I was doing under 10 secs and i wasnt the best sprinter... maybe many of u dont know but in a sprinter race if the racer sprint or launch the attack before the 200 meters line u end up doing like 9 secs... and usually u get 10 / 11 secs basically sprinting the last 150 meters, so imagine the power and speed u have to have to do that...
    Rubbish and nonsense.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by popdelusions
    Not sure if anyone's mentioned it before but there's an interesting mathematical model of the flying 200 at analyticcycling.com; probably worth checking out if you REALLY want to plan your drop down point and trajectory.
    It's not as useful as being at the track and trying a few 200's and talking to people who are familiar with the lines on the track. The line chosen on a particular track can also vary slightly based on the rider's abilities.

    At Hellyer, I use 49x14 if I'm aiming around 12 seconds, and 50x14 for 11.8 or better. Some other guys use smaller gears and higher cadences than I do.

    For Zapp, since you're trying a similar gear you'll probably want to either use a long approach acceleration since I doubt you have the strength to get on top of that gear with a shortish jump, or try a smaller gear like 47x14 and get to somewhere near 125 rpm's, until you get better at spinning.

  20. #20
    Senior Member CafeRacer's Avatar
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    I wish I had a 200 to try haha. Soon enough.

    This just past weekend I brough 138m(FCV lap) too 8.4sec with a cadence approach.

  21. #21
    it's your bicycle bells popdelusions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarrenG
    It's not as useful as being at the track and trying a few 200's and talking to people who are familiar with the lines on the track. The line chosen on a particular track can also vary slightly based on the rider's abilities.
    Totally agree, and certainly didn't mean to imply that it'd be a substitute for actual experience and advice, but for somebody who's trying to do some theoretical planning away from the track it is an interesting curiosity, like most of the models on that site, and might suggest some things to try if you're doing workouts on your own. It definitely deviates from the real world -- there's no way I can see to model complex conditions like track surface quality, wind direction, or just plain weirdness like the cracked pavement in turn 3 at Kissena, or the mini-cyclone that crops up in turn 4 at T-Town.

  22. #22
    spinlikehell mickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeRacer
    I wish I had a 200 to try haha. Soon enough.

    This just past weekend I brough 138m(FCV lap) too 8.4sec with a cadence approach.
    Wow that's a corking time, CR
    Could you fill in some of the details for me, eg gearing, where you started the wind up, any time spent out of saddle on the wind up and for how long etc etc??
    Reason I'm interested is we run a similar flying lap thing down at Calshot track which is close in spec to the FCV track (145m, 45deg, wooden, indoors). The official record is somewhere between 9.2-9.3s. I've got my time down to 9.75 last w/e using a cadence-based approach (48x16) which is the fastest of the group I usually ride with down there, but I need some advice/hints to take it to the next level and attack that record! Also, seems like a slow record time comapred to the FCV, given that the track is only approx 8m longer... Can different transitions etc on 2 similarly specced tracks make that much difference??

    mickster

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    Quote Originally Posted by popdelusions
    Totally agree, ...there's no way I can see to model complex conditions like track surface quality, wind direction, or just plain weirdness like the cracked pavement in turn 3 at Kissena, ...
    At least the bump out of 4 is gone now!

  24. #24
    Senior Member CafeRacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickster
    Wow that's a corking time, CR
    Could you fill in some of the details for me, eg gearing, where you started the wind up, any time spent out of saddle on the wind up and for how long etc etc??
    Reason I'm interested is we run a similar flying lap thing down at Calshot track which is close in spec to the FCV track (145m, 45deg, wooden, indoors). The official record is somewhere between 9.2-9.3s. I've got my time down to 9.75 last w/e using a cadence-based approach (48x16) which is the fastest of the group I usually ride with down there, but I need some advice/hints to take it to the next level and attack that record! Also, seems like a slow record time comapred to the FCV, given that the track is only approx 8m longer... Can different transitions etc on 2 similarly specced tracks make that much difference??

    mickster
    Gearing: just the right one 49/15. FCV has short straits and we get 2 laps to spin up. I used to roll it at a half decent pace up at the top then do most my accelerating on the trasition and utilize my kick. But my times stayed almost identical for like 2 months. This new time I posted was done 1st off with no sleep at all, and nothing more than 2 cups of coffee in me. I also started out with alot more speed and just spun the **** out of myself all the way down the trasition.

    We'll see if I can keep shaving the tenths off.

  25. #25
    One speed: FAST ! fordfasterr's Avatar
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    Tonight, a guy from Canada ran an 11.(80?) -- f/200m @ the track, it was quite impressive to see.

    The closest one of our local guys did (Mike Lifshotz) was 12.05 (And that was after completing a 10 lap scratch race)... Awesome work !!!

    I did not attempt it, instead I focused on not finishing last (even though I did finish last) in the 10 lap scratch race... however I got lucky and finished 3rd in the handicap race .. (2nd place was a 13 year old kid) and Mike Lifshotz was caught me and passed the 13y/o and finished first even though he was handicapped (everyone else was giving up because most people did f/200's just before the race).... lol

    Fun night !!!!
    Florida Velodrome Association.
    Big Wheel Cycles.
    CAT-2. Road Bike: 2011 Specialized Allez SRAM Apex. .. and yes, I am vegan.

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