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Old 08-30-06, 11:17 PM   #1
MarkWW
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keirin questions

So lately i've been watching some keirin videos from http://www.tachikawakeirin.jp/movie/.../bbdijest.html and i've been wondering...are there any rules in these races? It seems to me like there's always riders passing below the data line, or riding entire below the cote d'azure area. That typically isn't allowed on most tracks, right? (I don't know much about track racing, but i'm trying to learn) I did notice that the people that rode all the way on the bottom of the track, below the banking, never won. Almost like they slowed down pedaling or something. So that's why I ask. Maybe you just aren't allowed to win riding down there? I sure don't know.
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Old 08-31-06, 02:47 AM   #2
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Yes, there are rules, but it's a bit rough-and-tumble, both in Japan and in the US. If you are racing a keirin, you get trapped if you're on the inside so faster riders can go around you while you have nothing you can do about it. You're simply blocked by whomever is in front of you and doesn't have to work harder to keep you behind them. And yes, if you're onto the apron you can't ride at the same speed -- you've just been pushed into an area where you don't have the banking working for you. It's not disallowed to be pushed there for most mass-start events, because nobody wants to ride there intentionally. In more genteel events someone could be DQ'd for pushing you down off the banking, but you can go down and below a rider in a massed start event or keirin to pass, though it's generally a stupid move -- they can just move down and cut you off. In a few events such as kilo or pursuit, it carries penalties, and in match sprints there are special rules about the sprinter's lane. But in keirin the winner will always be at the front and stay there, or will come up and over the back. Coming around from below tends to buy you a crash before long, and nearly always gets you blocked.
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Old 08-31-06, 06:48 AM   #3
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I'm not sure if you are talking about japanese keirins, US keirins or track races in general.

However, for mass start races including keirns and sprints it is never legal to pass a rider on the inside if they are below sprinters line and never legal to pass on the cote d'azure.
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Old 09-01-06, 08:25 PM   #4
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Then you need to spend some time watching some Jappanese Keirin racing. Those guys go all out and dont give a ****. But like 11.4 is right. In almost all cases going under causes a guy to crash.
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Old 06-22-07, 12:17 AM   #5
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This seems the right place to put my Japanese Keirin Questions - so if any of you could help I'd be grateful. (A friend of mine in Japan got me hooked on Keirin, and now I'm busy all day looking at form and videos!)
I additionally can't read Japanese, and my mate has gone incomunnicado..

1) Given that the Japanese are such sticklers for detail - where can I find the finishing times? You'd think they would be on the websites but noo.......only put up the last 200m times!

2) Are the 'groups' in Keirin any good during the race - isin't the back guy always screwed over?

3) Is there a big differrence between a motorised pacer and the normal pacer used in Japan - surly the guy on the bike might be urged to go a little slower/faster?

Thanks for giving me your time reading my silly Qs!
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Old 06-22-07, 12:33 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by david.r.maurice
This seems the right place to put my Japanese Keirin Questions - so if any of you could help I'd be grateful. (A friend of mine in Japan got me hooked on Keirin, and now I'm busy all day looking at form and videos!)
I additionally can't read Japanese, and my mate has gone incomunnicado..

1) Given that the Japanese are such sticklers for detail - where can I find the finishing times? You'd think they would be on the websites but noo.......only put up the last 200m times!

2) Are the 'groups' in Keirin any good during the race - isin't the back guy always screwed over?

3) Is there a big differrence between a motorised pacer and the normal pacer used in Japan - surly the guy on the bike might be urged to go a little slower/faster?

Thanks for giving me your time reading my silly Qs!

1. keirin is only ever timed over the final 200m
2. yes...the back guy is at a disdvantage, but that's racing
3. not really. The pedalling pacer is very experinced and under strict instructions (in Japan....elsewhere they vary a lot) about speed, so everyrace is as fair as possible.
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Old 06-22-07, 02:12 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkWW
It seems to me like there's always riders passing below the data line, or riding entire below the cote d'azure area. That typically isn't allowed on most tracks, right? I did notice that the people that rode all the way on the bottom of the track, below the banking, never won. Almost like they slowed down pedaling or something.
The rule is that a rider cannot gain advantage on the blue band. Often in a Kieren lead out riders will drop down as the are overhauled as Commissaires will expect a rider at the front to hold a reasonable line once the bike is off.
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Old 06-22-07, 02:19 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by david.r.maurice
2) Are the 'groups' in Keirin any good during the race - isin't the back guy always screwed over?

3) Is there a big differrence between a motorised pacer and the normal pacer used in Japan - surly the guy on the bike might be urged to go a little slower/faster?
2. The guy at the back has only one advantage, being able to run at the bike before it pulls off. I haven't seen too many do it successfully but watch for gun riders in weak heats.

3. There are UCI regs for the speed of the derny given in incremental increases per lap, any discrepancies are usually from the inexperience of the pacer.

Last edited by bikejack; 06-22-07 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 06-24-07, 06:03 PM   #9
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thanks very much guys! (admittedly, 2) was a dumb question - but if you're a sprinter not a stayer you haven't much choice!)
I would have thought the Japanese would have gone with motorised Dernys for that extra bit of uniformity, but tradition is tradition.
My eyes are a bit sore of 'reading' japanese translations, so I reckon I might stick with UCI keirin events, but then again, the Japanese Keirin is on almost every day...
Thanks again!
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Old 06-26-07, 01:45 AM   #10
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OK, so given that there are no finishing times, how are you supposed to compare the quality of the riders in different races, let alone different venues and competitions! I konw the Japanse Keirin uses and point/class based system, , but move outside Japan, and who knows?
But then again, you have to take all sorts of nasty things into account (blocking, line pos. etc) - is this why they don't do times?
Thanks everyone again!
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