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  1. #26
    Junior Member L_Peter's Avatar
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    I used to know a personal trainer, he said that the best way to gain muscle as fast as possible (if that is your goal) is to do three sets of ten, the weight being the most you can do. In my experience, it should hurt at 6 and 7 reps, and really hurt after that. It worked nicely for me. Hope that helps.

  2. #27
    Senior Member CafeRacer's Avatar
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    In no-ones goals should gaining muscle "as fast as possible" be a priority. IF you take your time at it(relitivly speaking) you build very very very lean strong muscle. You also build better muscle if you spend a couple months just working on base weights. IE - light weight, higher reps, bored out of your mind, checking out the girls in the gym.

  3. #28
    Abby Normal I am The Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dial_tone
    Okay. I copied that workout as closely as I could today and I have to say it felt pretty good. I took it easy on the weights since I've only been in the gym for 3 workouts. The single leg presses are much more stable than I thought. I should add that I have fairly thick ankles and I wear Olympic lifting shoes as well. It also brought to light a leg strength discrepancy. I'm a lefty. Basically I did:

    10 minute warmup on stationary bike
    Squats 4x5
    single leg presses 4x10-12
    single leg squats 3x5
    (I did these holding dumbbells because I was worried about balance. End result is you're not really doing all the work with one leg. I believe they actually do these with a bar behind the neck. That takes some serious balance.

    leg curls 4x10
    Good mornings 3x5
    incline press 4x10
    high row 4x10
    ab work


    I kept the rest periods around 3-4 minutes; basically listened to one song on my Ipod. It seems too long sometimes but I'm sure once I'm really cranking the poundages it will take it's toll. I came home and did 45 minutes fairly easy on the trainer. I will eventually do this on the rollers instead. This will be my Sunday/Wednesday workout from now on.

    i did one-legged squats last night. holy **** i've found the grail. greatest leg workout i've ever had eventhough i was barely using much more than the bar just to figure out if i was going to fall over and kill myself or someone near-by. my upper glutes were firing like a mutha. i also did one-legged presses, dead-lift (both legs ), good mornings, single leg curls and STANDING calf raises. i should have mixed in some extensions but i didn't want to over-do it. one-legged is the way to go.

  4. #29
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    how deep do you go with the single leg exercises?

  5. #30
    Abby Normal I am The Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrackLeo
    how deep do you go with the single leg exercises?

    this is my first time trying single leg squats. i went down as far as i could but my thigh wasn't parallel to the floor. unbelievably diificult (for me) to do without the fear of falling over. the second set i got brave and held my back foot off the ground and went down as far as i could. 4 sets of 6 reps each leg.

    single leg press i go down almost to full contraction, no bounce at the bottom, and keep the muscle under pressure through the movement.

    i do reps slooooowly and deliberately.

  6. #31
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    Squats and deadlifts are the best(and will make your legs explode in size).Throw in single legged leg press on a different day to break things up.I used to do single legged leg extension with nil or 1 plate on to warmup (after exercise bike ofcourse).

  7. #32
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    Ive also tried stepups instead of squats (as it was what the bulgarian weightlifters were supposed to be doing at some stage instead of squats) and only found them to give me knee pain so i went back to the squats.
    Anybody who likes pain may also want to try the German Volume Training with the 10 sets of 10 reps.

  8. #33
    Senior Member Dubbayoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrackLeo
    how deep do you go with the single leg exercises?
    for the 45 degree leg press I come down til the shin bone is just past horizontal to the ground. Try to think about the angle of your leg on the bike when your pedal is at the top.

  9. #34
    Junior Member LUCINDOR's Avatar
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    Well..............
    my 2 cents is this and so far its working.
    I am weight training according to powerlifting principles.
    My interest is sprinting.
    As for what weight the pros use , I dunno but from the looks of some of em I'll bet a lot.
    As for me
    Leg Press (deep) 700,800,900,1050 lb 4x5-8 and 2 VERY deep sets as well withn 400.
    Squats 135x15, 185x10, 225x6, 275x2, 315x7-10, 365x2, 385x2 (top of thighs parallel with floor)
    every other week I finish squats with 135x20.
    Also dead lifts and rows on back days
    Last edited by LUCINDOR; 03-11-07 at 08:53 AM.
    HOW AM I NOT MYSELF

  10. #35
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    with the single legs:

    do have your leg that you arnt doing straight out in front of you, or do you just do them as normal, just not pushing with one leg?

    Leo

  11. #36
    Senior Member Dubbayoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrackLeo
    with the single legs:

    do have your leg that you arnt doing straight out in front of you, or do you just do them as normal, just not pushing with one leg?

    Leo
    For me, straight out in front.

  12. #37
    Junior Member LUCINDOR's Avatar
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    The way to do singles is with the leg straight out in front.
    Check youtube.
    There are lots of flics for weight and strength movements
    HOW AM I NOT MYSELF

  13. #38
    如果你能讀了這個你講中文 genericbikedude's Avatar
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    I'm glad I prompted such useful info from people -- good thread.

    I've been going to the gym off and on, doing all sorts of stuff including the sled thing for the legs. I can now do a set of 15 in at 300+, if I'm willing to fight for it... my knees don't seem to like it though. I've since laid off entirely, except for reps at 160, which I can do endlessly with no burn.

    How does one not kill one's knees when working on the quads? I take glucosamine now... is the sled just a bad way to do it?

  14. #39
    Senior Member CafeRacer's Avatar
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    Its not the machine, its your body, and time.

    Allow me to offer my advice. I know knee pain well. Ive had both of mine opperated one, one twice witch now has some hardwear in it.

    In September I got back into the gym after 3 years. And even then I didnt do a heck of alot, just circut training stuff. Spite my size my coach had me working on really light weights for 3 months with only the slightest increase in weight per month. After a month both knees hurt like hell. Im not sure where yours hurt but mine throbbed right on top of the knee cap, and was from my quads. With some research and experimenting I found I just needed to warm up and stretch better before my work out. I cured the pain by doing basic stretching 3- 4 times a day to stay limber.

    As far as weights go 300lbs may feel light but if you've never done them before in quantity your body isnt used to the moment. You need to work on a base. Comparison: in September I was leg pressing 270lbs 12 times- 3 sets. By December I had it closer to 360 with the same rep/set. In march the lift turned from long and light to short and heavy. And by heavy I mean doing sets of 8, 3 times well into the 6 and 7 hundreds. Plus the odd Max lift or close to it witch is just under 1000. Coach also had me start on single leg press with an emphasis on "quickly" moving the sled. For that I use 10lbs more than I can back squat.

    If your doing squats use a light weight or bar to do some warm up sets on. Like any other lift you need to build a base and learn the movment perfectly. It may feel embarassing squatting with a 45lbs plate on either side of you 12 times but it works. It also gives you the chance to figure out witch footing works for you best. I found just a bit wider than my shoulders works for me best. For front squat I found even slightly wider helps my form.

    Bottom line, for as messed as my knees are they dont hurt at all anymore. In fact my back gave me greif before a knee did. Witch now shows me I need to find a way to better stretch and warm it up since I obviously didnt do a good job of that! Work on a base, dial the movments and STRETCH!

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by LUCINDOR
    Well..............
    my 2 cents is this and so far its working.
    I am weight training according to powerlifting principles.
    My interest is sprinting.
    you're well on your way. As a pro pl'er who was riding 15 years ago, I feel pretty qualified to tell you that what you're doing is going to work. The only thing that experience has taught me is that regardless of how much mass or strength you build from powerlifting, you will not get faster on the bike until you "condition" that mass/neurological adaptation to perform how you want it to perform. This is the fundamental point behind the specificity principle - one of the seven most commonly accepted strength training principles.

  16. #41
    Senior Member CafeRacer's Avatar
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    Can anyone provide a link to the Paul Rogers (AIS) artical. The link above doesnt work anymore.

    cheers

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenear View Post
    The only thing that experience has taught me is that regardless of how much mass or strength you build from powerlifting, you will not get faster on the bike until you "condition" that mass/neurological adaptation to perform how you want it to perform.
    Good advice, Goldenear!

    And how can I reach this "condition of mass/neurological adaption"?

    Do You have any links, documents or books to recommend, plz?!

  18. #43
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigMig View Post
    Good advice, Goldenear!

    And how can I reach this "condition of mass/neurological adaption"?

    Do You have any links, documents or books to recommend, plz?!
    Im certainly no expert... But in Friel's book he recommends doing the bulk of your weight room strength training early in your base phase (base 1), when you are only doing aerobic work on the bike. Then (base 2) you switch to strength maintenance in the gym and begin to transition into medium hilly terrain ridden below LT and seated, to maximize hip extension strength gains. Then (base 3), you ride "serious hills with long climbs" still in the saddle, at or above LT.

    This is obviously geared towards Road racing, not Track racing, but I think that the cross over works for endurance track riders.. I have found that strength gains from seated hill climbs transfered to the track for me.

    I think Sprinters find a pretty direct correlation from gym strength to Track strength, but others will have more insight on that than I do.

    That said, this is my first year doing a heavy lifting phase during base, so I wont really know how the adaption goes till i get back on the track in a couple months.

  19. #44
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    I'm angry because I just lost a long winded reply I had typed out to this issue, so this response will be significantly more terse.

    Forget the leg press, forget high reps, and forget everything the magazines tell you about getting stronger; for the most part it's complete and utter crap. If you want to know how to be strong, look at those who are strongest- powerlifters and olympic weighlifters.

    What do they do?

    Powerlifters squat, deadlift, and benchpress mainly, using very low reps for the majority of their main exercises, anywhere from heavy singles, triples, fives, and up to eights and above for accessories. Accessories are just that, moves designed specifically to help sticking points and rotate stress on joints and other body parts; most people's programs are all potatoes and no meat.

    Olympic weigh lifters also squat a ton, front squat, clean and its variations, and snatch and its variations.

    The leg press is for those who are too fat to squat yet, or for whom a devastation knee, back, or hip injury prevents from squatting.

    ALL squatting is done low, breaking parallel as defined by the crease of the hip passing below the knee; if you decide to go lower, more power to you, but if you decide to go higher, you're not squatting, you're masturbating with weight on your back.

    If you're looking for a program to get stronger on, find a strength coach; my personal recommendations are:

    1. Starting Strength 2nd edition by Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore

    2. For those into the theory of how we get stronger, as well as how to design programs that will get you stronger- Practical Programming by the same authors.

    3. Anything by Bill Starr, one of the fathers of modern powerlifting.

    Also, realize that time spent in the gym will never be more valuable than time spent on the bike, though it will make you much, much more powerful when you do get on the bike.

    Best bang for the buck exercise- Squats done deep (below parrallel; if you are unsure, have someone who knows what that looks like check.) I can assure that it's much deeper than most people are comfortable going.

    If you're not comfortable, man up and buy Starting Strength or any olympic weightlifting book, squat deep, often (2-4 times a week) and with heavy weights. Eat like a horse. Grow. Be Strong.

  20. #45
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoopinFresh View Post
    Powerlifters squat, deadlift, and benchpress mainly, using very low reps for the majority of their main exercises, anywhere from heavy singles, triples, fives, and up to eights and above for accessories. Accessories are just that, moves designed specifically to help sticking points and rotate stress on joints and other body parts; most people's programs are all potatoes and no meat.
    Good information. But is there really cycling benefit from singles or triples? At some level it has to mimic cycling and even a short sprint requires a longer effort than a couple seconds, right? Im mostly just asking...

    Quote Originally Posted by PoopinFresh View Post
    ALL squatting is done low, breaking parallel as defined by the crease of the hip passing below the knee; if you decide to go lower, more power to you, but if you decide to go higher, you're not squatting, you're masturbating with weight on your back.
    Awesome!

  21. #46
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    "The trouble with cyclists is that their training establishment keeps reinforcing the silly bull**** that all recreational athletes want to believe: at some point, all serious athletes go outside their sport-specific work to improve, and recreational athletes just want to play their sport and wear the clothes."

    Mark Rippetoe

    "Also, realize that time spent in the gym will never be more valuable than time spent on the bike, though it will make you much, much more powerful when you do get on the bike. "

    From my first post.

    Yes, training your sport requires a certain level of specificity. This is true across all sports.

    The thing is, especially for something like track cycling, which is generally relatively short bursts of powerful cycling, being stronger (to a point) will be of much use, especially to the novice weightlifter who can't even squat 1.5 times their bodyweight below parallel, or deadlift 2x their bodyweight.

    Have you seen the legs on most track cyclists? I have no doubt that most of those guys competing in the relatively short events could, with very little training, be squatting 2x bodyweight very shortly. They are, without a doubt, very, very strong men.

    The short and long of it is that you should lift heavy to grow strong, which will have carryover to when you get back on the bike. Both can be done concurrently, but at decreased effeciency. Training the necessary energy systems is accomplished with General physical preparedness (GPP) training during the offseason, and then sport specific work as the season approaches.

    These are broad, general scenarios, not necessarily having to do specifically with track training.

    I also am no coach, just an ex personal trainer and someone who loves weightlifting.

    A few Rippetoe Quotes to round things off:

    "Physical strength the most important thing in life"

    "The full squat is a perfectly natural position for the leg to occupy. That's why there's a joint in the middle of it, and why humans have been occupying this position, both unloaded and loaded, for millions of years. Much longer, in fact, than quasi-intellectual morons have been telling us that it's "bad" for the knees."

    "My program is 3x/week barbell training until the strength gains produced by linear progression are exhausted. That's it, the whole program. Adding a bunch of other stuff in, or even adding a little other stuff in makes it NOT MY PROGRAM, because it fundamentally alters your response to the stress. Do what you want, of course, but it won't be my program if you do it your way."

    - Mark Rippetoe

    Anyone who is serious about their lifting will do themselves a favor and go to http://aasgaardco.com/ and order themselves a copy of Starting Strength; if you don't like wasting time, order Practical Programming at the same time, or wait until your done with Starting Strength and then read it. If Starting Strength is the "what," and Practical Programming is the "how" and "why."

    I don't work for Rippetoe or his publisher, I'm just one of many that have been forced to rethink how they approach trainging (not "working out") because he smacked me upside the head with brute logic, linear progression, and a plan based upon decades teaching novices how to lift damned heavy weights.

  22. #47
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    i dont know who this Mark Rippetoe (Rip) is, but a quick google search revealed a blog with a Q&A forum that he answers and he is a riot!

    http://strengthmill.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=36

    It appears that you cant really get the basis of his training philosophy without buying the books, but his responses are priceless!!!

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    i dont know who this Mark Rippetoe (Rip) is, but a quick google search revealed a blog with a Q&A forum that he answers and he is a riot!

    http://strengthmill.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=36

    It appears that you cant really get the basis of his training philosophy without buying the books, but his responses are priceless!!!
    Training philosophy is simple, and nothing that hasn't been working for decades already; lift heavy, progressively increasing weight, eat enough to support your lifting, and don't be a *****.

    Search for the "Starting Strength" wikipedia, as it will give you some more information. When (notice I didn't say "if") you decide to do the program, buy the book, as it will be the best 30 dollars you ever spend in your lifting career.

  24. #49
    Senior Member
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    Reading Starting Strength is a must, especially if you are a sprinter. One of the previous writers mentioned how he thought any of the champion sprinters could easily squat 2x their body weight. In fact, 3x is easily attainable, and more if you want.

    When I was sprinting, my coach had be doing 3 sets of 30 reps at 2x body weight (or more) three times a week. Of course, it took several months to build up to this. We then started doing 3 sets of drop squats where each set was done at 3x (roughly) body weight for 15 reps, then take a plate (45 lbs) off each side and do another 15, rest, put the plates back on and do another set etc.

    I was also doing leg presses and calf raises. My program called for 3 sets of 30 reps. The weight was determined by how much I could lift. Because of the differing mechanical advantages inherent in each leg press sled, the amount would vary, depending which gym I was using. Typically 3 sets of 30 at 1000 or more lbs. After each set of leg presses, I would rearrange my feet and do calf raises with the same weight.

    It is vital to remember to breath properly during each rep, whether doing squats or leg presses. Remember to exhale while you press the weight up. Never, ever, hold your breath and strain to make the rep. If you have to do this to lift the weight, stop and decrease the weight. Very bad things can happen otherwise, things that will irrevocably halt your career.

    Not only did I get strong, but muscle size increased (I was 48 years old, so even old folks can greatly benefit) and I dropped over a second off an already pretty good 200. Not only that, but the multiple reps built endurance. One of my problems was that I could rip off a great 180, but decelerated badly in the final 20. After the winter work out described above, I had more like a full 250 in me.

    This program worked for me, but may not work for anybody else. I believe the rationale behind it was sound, but I was born with nothing but fast twitch in my legs. Someone else may not be able to do as much weight, but I believe they would still benefit.

    Of course, if you are doing squats with this much weight, you must have at least one, and preferably two competent spotters--safety must come first because you can't win races if you crushed by the bar or tear your back apart with a failed lift.

    I also agree with comments above concerning learning from power lifters. Wlhen I first started lifting weights many years ago I was a speed skater. We used to lift at the local community center, and fell in with a crowd of power lifters. Great work outs, and they really helped me with technique. If you can find one to train with, do it.

    John

  25. #50
    not actually Nickatina andre nickatina's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice.

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