Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-17-09, 05:34 PM   #51
PoopinFresh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Brooklyn
Bikes:
Posts: 200
Quote:
It is vital to remember to breath properly during each rep, whether doing squats or leg presses. Remember to exhale while you press the weight up. Never, ever, hold your breath and strain to make the rep. If you have to do this to lift the weight, stop and decrease the weight. Very bad things can happen otherwise, things that will irrevocably halt your career.
Great advice, and some very impressive lifting (2x bodyweight for 3 sets of 30 is near unbelievable!), but the above information is wrong. Holding one's breath is called the valsalva maneuver, and is exactly what you should be doing when lifting a heavy object, and is, in fact, what the human body will do naturally.

Imagine what you would do if you had to get a car rolling; shoulder down, big breath in and push until you're red in the face. This maneuver increases intrathoracic pressure, stabilizes the spine, and is the only to safely lift the weight. Most people will, to some extent or another, however, breathe, grunt, scream, moan, etc., during the end portion of the lift, but thoracic pressure is never lost.
PoopinFresh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-09, 11:47 AM   #52
rensho3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Ana
Bikes: Fuji Elite, 3Rensho track, Trek Madone 6.9, Specialized MTB, GT MTB, Cannondale Cad3 fixie
Posts: 127
Holding your breath is a bad thing. We all do it when we strain, but there are some times it is more dangerous than others. Lifting really heavy weights is one of them. If you research the issue, you will find that there are quite a few incidences of aneurysm and dissection of arteries leading to death that occur in health clubs and gyms. The arterial defects are normally diagnosed post mortem.

This is separate from the occurence of heart attacks. Using the valsalva maneuver, you do raise your blood pressure significantly. I have seen research where power lifters BP exceeds 400! When you get older, and your arteries are no longer quite as flexible, they can sometimes fail under all that pressure. At least that is how my cardiologist explains. It happened to me, which ended my cycling career. I am thus something of a crusader about the topic, because I sure would like to try to prevent it from happening to someone else. I was lucky enough to be right next door to the right facility with a more than competent cath lab that refused to give up.

Note, the grunt, moan scream etc that you talk about is exactly what I am talking about--you are exhaling, and reducing the valsalva induced effect. When I hurt myself, I did none of that. You see it all the time if you watch the heavy lifters--the guys who have been at it a long time all grunt, scream etc to get over the sticking point; its the ones who have not received proper training that don't say a word, or exhale, that are the one's who are at risk. Granted, injuries like mine don't happen very often, but the cost of being wrong is very high, so a little prevention is worth it, in my book. Sorry to be so preachy.

J
rensho3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-09, 04:45 PM   #53
andre nickatina
not actually Nickatina
 
andre nickatina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: OR
Bikes:
Posts: 4,447
I found that after I upped the weight to a certain point and was doing 4-6 reps with 5 sets on squats/leg presses, I'd pretty much grunt after every rep involuntarily. I can't really prevent the grunt even if I want to, but I guess it also gets the ladies attention in the gym and then they look over and see my bar is stacked! hahaha.
andre nickatina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-09, 05:12 PM   #54
PoopinFresh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Brooklyn
Bikes:
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by rensho3 View Post
Holding your breath is a bad thing. We all do it when we strain, but there are some times it is more dangerous than others. Lifting really heavy weights is one of them. If you research the issue, you will find that there are quite a few incidences of aneurysm and dissection of arteries leading to death that occur in health clubs and gyms. The arterial defects are normally diagnosed post mortem.

This is separate from the occurence of heart attacks. Using the valsalva maneuver, you do raise your blood pressure significantly. I have seen research where power lifters BP exceeds 400! When you get older, and your arteries are no longer quite as flexible, they can sometimes fail under all that pressure. At least that is how my cardiologist explains. It happened to me, which ended my cycling career. I am thus something of a crusader about the topic, because I sure would like to try to prevent it from happening to someone else. I was lucky enough to be right next door to the right facility with a more than competent cath lab that refused to give up.

Note, the grunt, moan scream etc that you talk about is exactly what I am talking about--you are exhaling, and reducing the valsalva induced effect. When I hurt myself, I did none of that. You see it all the time if you watch the heavy lifters--the guys who have been at it a long time all grunt, scream etc to get over the sticking point; its the ones who have not received proper training that don't say a word, or exhale, that are the one's who are at risk. Granted, injuries like mine don't happen very often, but the cost of being wrong is very high, so a little prevention is worth it, in my book. Sorry to be so preachy.

J
No worries about preaching, as I always welcome great conversation, especially from those more experienced than myself.

A drastic increase in blood pressure certainly does happen when lifting very heavy weights, though we might have to agree to disagree about the valslava maneuver when lifting. The cardiovascular system, like the entire body, adapts to stresses when given a chance to do so; assuming that one starts slow and builds up over time, there is no reason that the valsalva should give them an anuerysm or worse. I know what the current literature says, and I know what is preached to personal trainers and the like as "safe."

Realistically speaking, however, most people will utilize the maneuver automatically, and eventually start grunting or screaming when things get hard enough. As long as they aren't letting all their air out at the bottom of a heavy squat, they'll be fine.

Thanks for the conversation, not often I get to talk about lifting on this forum.

Steven
PoopinFresh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-09, 11:56 AM   #55
IbikezLA
Senior Member
 
IbikezLA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 459
What has worked for me, and I press 1000 lb but I am 6'5", was doing 8 reps very slowly. I would bring the weight down for 8 seconds and try to get my legs close to my chest, then push the weight back up for 3 seconds. I did this ONCE (8 reps) every other day

This WILL BURN but you will see results. My legs got strong quickly and I was adding 45 lbs every almost every week because of how quickly my legs adapted.

Just be careful because this focuses on the negative rep which is pretty stressful.
IbikezLA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-09, 02:25 PM   #56
andre nickatina
not actually Nickatina
 
andre nickatina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: OR
Bikes:
Posts: 4,447
You're probably recruiting mostly slow twitch on that one huh?

I'll try it out next time I'm at the gym. Does it help you on the hills or what?
andre nickatina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 08:00 PM   #57
Six jours
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 6,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopinFresh View Post
Great advice, and some very impressive lifting (2x bodyweight for 3 sets of 30 is near unbelievable!), but the above information is wrong. Holding one's breath is called the valsalva maneuver, and is exactly what you should be doing when lifting a heavy object, and is, in fact, what the human body will do naturally.
I can vouch for both John's abilities in the gym and his abilities on the bike. At the time he was doing those lifts he was also flirting with 300 rpm, and 50 MPH motor sprints...in a 68 inch gear. He was headed for a rainbow jersey, I think, before his barely unsuccessful effort at killing himself with leg presses. I was composing his eulogy in my head while racing to the hospital, so you can also count me as a "Don't hold your breath while lifting!" preacher.

Last edited by Six jours; 02-23-09 at 08:03 PM.
Six jours is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-09, 12:16 AM   #58
IbikezLA
Senior Member
 
IbikezLA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by andre nickatina View Post
You're probably recruiting mostly slow twitch on that one huh?

I'll try it out next time I'm at the gym. Does it help you on the hills or what?
I feel like it helps, when I first got into cycling I was able to push it out on some hills around town to keep up with my more experienced friends. But the muscle is nothing without good fitness.
IbikezLA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-09, 02:01 AM   #59
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,018
Thanks for the info, guys. I've got to get my act together if I want to be competitive this summer.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-09, 02:22 PM   #60
uncaboos
Junior Member
 
uncaboos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lorena, TX
Bikes:
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterm5365 View Post
For the leg press you should do one leg at a time and try to "throw" the weight. Just my two cents.
This is one of the most absurd and dangerous suggestions I have ever heard or read, I suppose you also suggest to bounce when doing stretches also, hunh?

For the OP, go and read "Strong Enough" and "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe for useful information about training with weights. Good luck and don't "throw" or "bounce" in your exercise program if you wat to stay healthy and improve.
uncaboos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-09, 03:42 PM   #61
andre nickatina
not actually Nickatina
 
andre nickatina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: OR
Bikes:
Posts: 4,447
I'm starting to think leg presses are a bit inferior to squats for track racing...
andre nickatina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-09, 08:07 PM   #62
Baby Puke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA
Bikes: Marin Stelvio, Pogliaghi SL, Panasonic NJS, Dolan DF3, Intense Pro24 BMX
Posts: 1,000
Freeweight squats and deadlifts are definitely superior to leg presses for our purposes. The freeweight exercises strengthen all the core muscles too, which is huge for cycling. They also allow you to get more benefit with less weight, which is better for joints.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to a bar, plates and rack, so I've been making due with my gyms dumbells (a pair of 20kg maximum) and leg press. It's ok, but I REALLY wish I could do proper squats....
Baby Puke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-09, 01:44 AM   #63
Quinn8it
Senior Member
 
Quinn8it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hollywood
Bikes: Bianchi Pista, Bianchi Vigorelli
Posts: 956
My take on the statement "throw the weights" that I hear people say from time to time on cycling forums is not that you are attempting to throw the weights away from your feet at the top of the movement, but more that you should be attempting to be very explosive at the bottom of the leg press.

This is not something I am advocating for or against... I just dont think there is anyone who thinks catching a loaded sled with your feet, after you "threw it" at the top of a leg press rep is a good idea
Quinn8it is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-09, 05:05 AM   #64
Richard Kennedy
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncaboos View Post
This is one of the most absurd and dangerous suggestions I have ever heard or read, I suppose you also suggest to bounce when doing stretches also, hunh?

For the OP, go and read "Strong Enough" and "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe for useful information about training with weights. Good luck and don't "throw" or "bounce" in your exercise program if you wat to stay healthy and improve.
This article http://www.dubbayoo.net/files/docs/T...t_Training.pdf , written by the Head of Strength and Conditioning for the Australian Track Team strongly advocates exactly that


Quote:
Single-leg Press is our bread and butter. Different foot and hip positions for different phases of pedal stroke, standing, seated, etc. I use high speed video to match joint angles and velocities for each rider. We mainly do it ballistically for power - throw the sled as far as you can
Richard Kennedy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-09, 12:53 PM   #65
marcelinyc
R900Campagnolo
 
marcelinyc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Brooklyn
Bikes: track and road
Posts: 884
Could anyone tell me what is the proper squat technique with smith machine?
leg placement etc.
Thanks
marcelinyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-09, 02:14 PM   #66
Six jours
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 6,401
Feet well in front of the bar, back straight and almost perpendicular to the floor.

FWIW, I don't much like Smith squats. They put tremendous pressure on the front of the knee, and they encourage poor form which easily leads to low back injuries.

If I had to pick one lower body lift a track racer should do, it would be the squat. Everything else is either a supporting exercise, or a poor substitute.
Six jours is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-09, 02:45 PM   #67
andre nickatina
not actually Nickatina
 
andre nickatina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: OR
Bikes:
Posts: 4,447
Don't use the Smith machine. It's a joke.

Guys, I'm down with the 'ass-to-grass' thing now that I've been trying it more and more. But I think I got 2 more weeks of squats before I phase out the weights for more intervals... I just want to get 300lb before that happens, then I'll hang it up!!
andre nickatina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 03:08 PM   #68
CafeRacer
Senior Member
 
CafeRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 411
Why phase out the weights? Most guys stay in the gym at least 2 days a week unless there is an event 10-12 days out. You can drop the volume and do shorter sets saving you some energy for other workouts. If all your doing is switching to intervals I would just do both equally as hard, eat lots and really reap some benifit.

I will counter the above statment that leg press is inferior to squatting or deadlifting. Used properly all 3 are as good as each other. The leg press is the easiest machine to concentrate the power in a differant part of the legs movment as you can adjust your hip angle and how far forward you foot placement is while removing a large part of core support. On its own, its definatly not enough, but used along the other workouts its great.
CafeRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-09, 04:38 PM   #69
andre nickatina
not actually Nickatina
 
andre nickatina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: OR
Bikes:
Posts: 4,447
Quote:
Originally Posted by CafeRacer View Post
Why phase out the weights?
Because I'm phasing in the road racing right now...
andre nickatina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-09, 11:42 AM   #70
CafeRacer
Senior Member
 
CafeRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by andre nickatina View Post
Because I'm phasing in the road racing right now...

That would make sence! Sorry I assumed you were a sprinter.
CafeRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-09, 01:09 AM   #71
andre nickatina
not actually Nickatina
 
andre nickatina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: OR
Bikes:
Posts: 4,447
Quote:
Originally Posted by CafeRacer View Post
That would make sence! Sorry I assumed you were a sprinter.
Hmm.. road sprinter perhaps. I'll do match sprints this summer at the track but no interest in being a pure match sprinter.
andre nickatina is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:11 PM.