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  1. #1
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    Weight Lifting / Cycling

    Hi Everyone

    Is It Good To Lift Weights All Year?
    I Hear Mixed Feelings About This. I'm Not Sure Myself.

    Any Advice ...

  2. #2
    Senior Member joeprim's Avatar
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    I'm addicted to weights so I don't care. But it does seem to be good.

    Joe

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    Senior Member CafeRacer's Avatar
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    Top sprinters never leave the gym. Its why theyre HUGE! Instead they taper their workouts in the gym and on the bike around big events, and train right through other ones.

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    Not obese just overweight ratebeer's Avatar
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    Ack, nevermind. Thought I was in road...
    Joe

    Veho difficilis, ago facilis

  5. #5
    Senior Member CafeRacer's Avatar
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    Road riders dont know what real weight lifting is

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    Junior Member Eul0gy's Avatar
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    Squats and deadlifts will only make you faster.
    Rather Be Forgotten Than Remembered For Giving In.

  7. #7
    Senior Member CafeRacer's Avatar
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    but only if your doing them on a proper schedual. YOu could go and pound out some 200lbs squats 20 times 3 times a week and not get anyware other than heavier and big. Its knowing how long to work on lighter weight, then progress, then work purly on power.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeRacer View Post
    Road riders dont know what real weight lifting is
    true dat.

  9. #9
    plucky russian. salome's Avatar
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    From my experience, many people don't lift during the season. And in the off-season there are those who think you should and those you think you shouldn't. I personally lift, but that's because it's something I've done for years, although now I only do it 2 or 3 times per week and am not aiming to really gain too much muscle mass, and I *think* I can feel the difference. It's one of the things I'm looking forward to in the off season.
    Last edited by salome; 09-02-07 at 11:44 AM.

  10. #10
    Headed to the Library... DC_Emily's Avatar
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    I've been lifting over the past few months, partly because my schedule doesn't allow alot of time on the bike, and I thought it'd be fun. So far, I've seen some gains, but haven't been able to really quantify them outside of my daily commute.

    I'd like to hear more on CafeRacer's point re the right weights with the right frequency. . .

  11. #11
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    posted MANY times....Aussie track squad program.

    Australian track cyclists more or less dominated the Athens Olympics track
    program with six gold medals. Here is a unique view from the strength and
    conditioning coach. My apologies if the following has been posted
    previously. It is doing the rounds of some bike forums, so some may have
    already seen it. Lightly edited by me for the forum. There's no name on it
    and that's how I came upon it, but the guy's name is no secret.

    Just a few points of interest. Ryan Bayley, mentioned below, won the Athens
    individual sprint gold. Check out the last para for some insights into the
    last thread on 'endurance paradox'. Note the squat and jump data. My oh my!

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    "I am currently the Strength and Conditioning Coach for the Australian
    National Sprint Cycling Team and have been for about five years. I am also
    the Strength Scientist for the South Australian Sports Institute in
    Adelaide, Australia, where the National Sprint Program is based. In
    addition, for "fun", I help coach a group of developmental sprint cyclists,
    which form the core of our SA State Sprint team and half of whom are now in
    the Top 10 sprinters in Australia, which would make them National champions
    in all but a handful of countries and, when I get time, I roll around the
    track myself.

    Some points (for free):

    1. We don't keep any secrets from anyone, including the Poms, the Frogs, Ze
    Germans or the Yanks. In fact, people just generally don't believe what we
    tell them, disagree or their programs (or minds) are too set in concrete to
    change. We invite other top riders to train with us and they get faster, but
    they go home and do the same old thing. The Head Coach, support staff and I
    are happy to tell anyone and everyone what we do. We usually just don't get
    time to sit around on chat rooms or make social chit chat on E-mail, let
    alone write a book.

    What Charlie Walsh and Gary West used to do with our sprinters when they
    were the Head Coaches was state of the art at the time and they are both
    great coaches. You will not find anyone in Australian Cycling who will
    question that or say a word against what they did at the time, but times
    have changed and those methods are not quite enough to consistently hit the
    top spots now, although you can still be troublesome internationally if
    you've got natural speed. The top speeds have gone to a new level and to
    reach that level, you have to specialise your sprint riders more. I'm sure
    if Charlie and Westy were still coaching the Oz team, they wouldn't be doing
    exactly the same things they were doing ten years ago. They are too smart
    for that.

    Most of what we do is based on methods and research that have been around
    for decades but have not been applied to cycling. It has mostly been used in
    athletics and we have copied a lot from that and what the French and Germans
    have done at various times. The Brits were formerly coached by our current
    Head Track Coach, so they do a lot of similar things too. What the Dutch are
    doing now, I'm not sure, but they were mostly all speed skaters before they
    were top cyclists, so maybe there's something in that.

    2. We are constantly trying new things and changing what we do, so what we
    do this year will be different to what we did last year and so on. Australia
    is a small country and is competing with some real powerhouses in terms of
    talent pools, resources and money that we can't even dream of matching, so
    we have to be a step ahead or we're not in the race.

    3. What sprinters did 10 years ago is completely different to what most of
    the top sprinters are doing now. The critical factors that determine success
    or failure have changed. Tactics have changed and the tournament formats
    have changed. Training that would win 10 years ago is generally not as
    successful today, but every dog has his or her day and some old-school
    trainers still come out on top now and again, but it is happening less and
    less.

    4. Our philosophy is simple. Most events are speed endurance. To win you
    need to go faster for longer than the other guy or gal. Some riders are
    better at faster, some are better at longer, but they generally need a bit
    of both. To have speed endurance, first you need speed. If you can't ride
    5.0 for a flying 100m, you won't ride 10.1 for a 200m. Speed is hard to
    train and takes a long time. Endurance is easy by comparison and we just
    chuck that on at the end. To get up to speed, you need acceleration and that
    means power. Power is a combination of strength and speed. The speed part
    you get on the track, the strength you get in the gym. Low cadence power
    (0-120rpm or so) we can train in the gym too, but high cadence power
    (120-200rpm) is too fast to do in the gym and you generally need to be
    chasing a maniac on a motorbike (e.g., our Head Coach) down the bank to
    increase that. Or at least, someone faster than you to break the wind so you
    can go overspeed.

    5. Aerobic Capacity (VO2max, AT) is the base for enduros, strength is the
    base for sprinters. We do three gym sessions and two track sessions for most
    of the year. Road is just for recovery, to keep them a little bit lean and
    to keep the sprinters out of the pub and out of trouble. It is generally a
    max of 2hrs, but mostly only 1 and is very easy - talking the whole time.

    6. When strength is the focus, we don't care what numbers they pump out on
    track, just what they lift. When power or speed is the focus, we back the
    gym off (2/wk and easier sessions) so we can get the numbers we want on the
    track (3-4/wk). Generally, half the year is spent focussed on strength and
    half on power and speed (roughly - depends on competitive calendar) although
    we always train a bit of everything, it's just the proportion of each that
    changes. The strength work is not all done in one block. We cycle through
    strength, power and speed at least twice per year.

    7. Gym is generally 3-4sets of 3 max lower body strength or power lifts -
    early in the phase, two strength and one power, later, two power and one
    strength. I don't use cleans, jerks or snatches with our current riders -
    they are too technical for maximal efforts unless you have years of
    experience. We do one bilateral strength lift each session for "core"
    strength (Squat, Deadlift, Romanian Deadlift) - usually lower back is the
    limiting factor not legs and this is the only reason I use these lifts - for
    back strength in standing starts. The rest of the lifts are unilateral. How
    many feet do you push each pedal with at one time? If you train bilaterally
    you get stronger bilaterally and unilateral strength lags behind. If you
    train unilaterally, you get stronger unilaterally. It's a neural thing.

    Single-leg Press is our bread and butter. Different foot and hip positions
    for different phases of pedal stroke, standing, seated, etc. I use high
    speed video to match joint angles and velocities for each rider. We mainly
    do it ballistically for power - throw the sled as far as you can - at
    different percentages of max to match up to different muscle contraction
    velocities for different phases of the acceleration (different cadences). We
    do a lot of single-leg plyos on boxes, stairs, bunjee sleds, etc during
    speed phases. Strength and power gains are extremely specific and do not
    necessarily transfer well. When Ryan Bayley beat Sean Eadie in the
    Commonwealth Games sprint final in 2002, Sean was tripling 250kg for a
    parallel back squat and Ryan was tripling 120kg. On single-leg press, they
    were much closer (20kg) and so was the racing.

    Single-leg squats (front and back) and deadlifts usually make up the third
    exercise and are as much for pelvic stability as strength. I'm going to try
    single-leg pulls and cleans this year, but these will not be our primary
    power exercises - more of a preparation for the work before Beijing. We have
    done SL squats, deadlifts and pulls for years now and the riders are pretty
    stable. An example of numbers - our best single-leg squat figures are 3 @
    165kg on each leg (just over 360lbs). The weakest of the girls (who just
    entered the squad this year) is 3 @ 80kg on each leg, but she only weighs
    about 50kg. Two riders have done the 165kg so far. We have riders who can do
    sets of standing hops onto 1m+ boxes. The lowest is for one of the girls and
    is a 70cm box for sets of 8 each leg.

    8. Upper body, we do two exercise per session (a push and a pull in the same
    plane of movement, different each day) in general prep and two per week in
    specific prep (both pulls) so they can keep hold of the handlebars in
    standing starts. The girls are starting to push themselves off the bike,
    their legs are so strong (around 3 @ 250kg on each leg for the girls and up
    to 350kg for the guys on SLP). Abs and core, we do two per session - one
    mainly flexion, one mainly extension. Some have rotational or lateral
    components, but not isometric holds or pilates mumbo jumbo. If their "core
    stability" is poor, they wouldn't be able to squat on one leg. Lying on the
    ground and waving your legs in the air doesn't transfer to the bike. That
    might annoy the physio's and guru's who make money out of Swiss balls and
    all that stuff, but I tried it for three years in 20 different sports and it
    didn't make any difference to performance or injury rates. They get really
    good at balancing on a ball, but there's no Olympic event for that. It
    doesn't transfer to the sport. Fix their technical problems in the actual
    technique (soapbox time is now over).

    9. A Gym session lasts about 2.5-3 hours for 6 or 7 exercises, a maximum of
    33 sets including 12 warm-ups sets, so that's about one set every six
    minutes or more on average. We don't set maximum rests, just minimums. If
    they need longer to get their heads in gear, they take it. Ryan Bayley is
    the slowest trainer in the world. Lucky he's so bloody fast, they'll pay my
    bill to sit there and talk about muscle cars and heavy metal music. Reps are
    a maximum of 6 for strength, and 4 - 15 for power (less for high percentages
    - 60-70% max, more for low percentages - 20%, or BW for plyos) Total
    contraction time for a set (not counting hang time in the air) is around
    6-8s max - phosphate energy system all the way. Minimum of 2 min rest, but
    that is never in danger. Only the phosphate energy system can deliver energy
    fast enough for maximal work and you've got about 8s max.

    10. On the track they take about 3 hours for 3 or 4 efforts including half
    hour warm-up routine - same as pre-race warm-up. Warm-up, change gears,
    roll-up, effort, roll down 20-30min rest, roll-up, effort, etc. Lot's more
    rest. Rest usually consists of sitting on their arses, paying out on each
    other, drinking Coca Cola (sponsorship please - the Coke bill is killing us)
    and the occasional chocolate cake. This is especially good when there is a
    joint sprinter/enduro training session. (Enduros don't get any cake -
    they're too paranoid about body fat). In general prep phase, the sprinters
    ride to track and gym (15-20min easy each way) and in spec prep, they drive..
    Each track effort is no longer than about 15s and usually less than 10s.
    Again, mainly phosphate system.

    11. The one thing we do that most coaches can't cop is this. If you don't
    make the target times or loads on the first effort or set, you warm down and
    go home. You aren't fresh enough to train at a level that will make you
    improve. If you do a PB, you warm down and go home. If you are on fire that
    much you can blow yourself to pieces in a couple of sets or efforts and it
    will take weeks to dig you out of the hole you put yourself in, so whatever
    it is, if you PB, you stop and come back next time. This philosophy takes
    everyone a while to accept, but it works. When we don't follow the rules, if
    we let someone pump out a series of PBs in one session, they are almost
    invariably wrecked for weeks afterwards and we never get close to quality
    training during that time. Sometimes, you can see it coming, but sometimes
    it just comes out of the blue. When it does, warm down, go home. Sometimes,
    at lower levels you can get away with it, but the better you get, the more
    capacity you have to exceed your normal limits, the more this becomes
    important. Enduros don't need to do this. Everything is submaximal.

    12. In general prep, the sprinters might do 2 x 1hr easy aerobic/coffee
    rides per week and an easier recovery ride on days off (unless the're too
    fat, then they might do 2hrs and less chocolate cake). This year, we are
    doing a total of six aerobic development rides (over Christmas - fat time).
    In spec prep, they just do the recovery rides.

    13. We generally always do track after gym. Gym in mornings (8:30am-11/12)
    track in the arvo (2:30/3pm-5:30/6pm). If the gym session is too hard, it
    will bugger them for track. As I said, for about half the year, we don't
    care. For the other half, I water down the gym so the track work is 100%.
    There is some short term potentiation from doing some maximal strength or
    power efforts but the research is not clear on time frames since everyone
    does something different. This is one thing we are looking at. If we do two
    maximal power ergo tests (6s with 4-5min recovery), the second one is always
    much better. The same has been shown with some contrast-loading studies on
    squats and plyos, etc., but an equal number of studies have shown no effect..
    The time courses and stimuli are always different though, so it's hard to
    compare. I think there's something in it so if you find something that works
    for you, go with it. The exception is start sessions. We never do standing
    starts after gym. If we do, they are always crap sessions.

    14. Coming up to the major comp for the year (Worlds or Olympics), we slot
    in a speed endurance block. This involves the addition of some longer
    sustained efforts or sets of short efforts with low recovery once or twice
    per week, usually one on an ergo and one on the track. This increases the
    muscles ability to buffer hydrogen ions from the anaerobic glycolysis energy
    pathway that you have to rely on when the phosphates run out and increases
    the enzyme capacity of that pathway as well, so it can run at a higher
    level. Adaptation is relatively fast and 6-8wks will usually give a massive
    increase in this capacity.

    15. Here's the logic.
    Volume is a speed killer. It doesn't matter what you do, if you do a lot, it
    will make you slower. The protein in your muscles (myosin heavy chain
    isoforms for those who know their molecular biology) will change to a
    slower, more endurance friendly type if you do too much volume. This is
    individually variable, but two sessions every day of anything will make you
    slower as will lots of aerobic work. You might still be fast for an enduro,
    but in sprinter terms, you're still slow.

    Going slow makes you slow. If you want to be able to go faster, then going
    at less than maximal speed generally won't do it. If it does, then you
    weren't operating at 100% before. That's OK. Most people can't switch
    everything on. You have to practice it. It takes years to reach your 100%
    level even without any actual physiological improvement. Most sprint events
    require sustained power output at cadences over 160rpm. If you don't
    practice this, you won't get good at it. Most people will spend all their
    bickies just getting up to 160rpm on a decent gear, so to train maximally at
    that level, you have to get up to 160rpm without using up your phosphate
    stores. That's where the motor bike comes in. Use the slipstream to get up
    to max speed or over and then spend your bickies. That way you work
    maximally at maximal speed. You have to train your nervous system to
    coordinate your muscular contractions at that speed.

    Same in the gym. If all you do is slow, heavy. You get STRONG and SLOW. You
    need to do most of your work at race speeds using submaximal loads but at
    high speeds. If you can't do single-leg stuff, then Olympic pulling
    movements are your next best option, but unloaded plyos are more important
    for higher cadences. You don't need to be able to clean or snatch or jerk.
    The pull phase from the floor to full hip and knee extension is where the
    gains come from. What happens after that doesn't matter. You can throw the
    bar out of the window and the gains will be the same. I would only recommend
    this on your last rep as most gym owners get quite irate about their
    equipment being heaved out into the street, as do passing pedestrians. The
    overspeed work will come as you try to get away.

    Use your maximum capacities at the maximum rate and in as specific a way as
    possible to transfer to the bike. I can outlift all our top riders in the
    gym and out-power them on the ergo, but I'm not in the race on the track. I
    can't put my power through the bike into the track. I'm just not technically
    as good as they are. Ryan Bayley may look like a monkey humping a tennis
    ball when he sprints but most of his power is getting onto the track.

    ....

    Weight training for enduros - the same strategies apply but maximal strength
    and power are less critical. All endurance riding, even the bunch sprint at
    the end, is really submaximal. A little bit of gym regularly helps to
    maintain the structural integrity of the body, prevent imbalances and
    prepare you for crashes, but the real gains come on the road. Racing is the
    best training. All our best track enduros race on the road in Europe. They
    come together for camps to touch up their track skills, but all of that was
    learnt as juniors and in domestic track racing on the way up. For strength
    endurance on the bike, ride up hills in the saddle on bigger gears. That was
    the only strength work out team pursuit did for the last three years and
    they won everything there was to win with a bucket load of world records to
    boot. Incidentally, they are also the fastest starters."

  12. #12
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Always a great read, thanks for posting it again ed

  13. #13
    Senior Member mezza's Avatar
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    Never seen it before. I'm going to print it out and take it home!!

    Thanks
    Do you own or run a small/medium business in Australia?
    Grow your business GUARANTEED* www.jumpglobal.com.au

  14. #14
    Senior Member
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    the thing that intrigued me the most about the sprinters in Adelaide was the down-time....1/2 hour minimum between sprint efforts in training.

    Pretty safe to say these guys are putting in.

  15. #15
    Senior Member classic1's Avatar
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    Or that the track sprinters are lazy bastids.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by classic1 View Post
    Or that the track sprinters are lazy bastids.
    KNEW you'd be around sooner or later...lol.


    I love this bit....to all the peanuts out there posting "How do I improve my core strength...waaa "

    If their "core
    stability" is poor, they wouldn't be able to squat on one leg. Lying on the
    ground and waving your legs in the air doesn't transfer to the bike. That
    might annoy the physio's and guru's who make money out of Swiss balls and
    all that stuff, but I tried it for three years in 20 different sports and it
    didn't make any difference to performance or injury rates. They get really
    good at balancing on a ball, but there's no Olympic event for that

  17. #17
    Senior Member classic1's Avatar
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    I love that article.

    I find the fitter I am, the better balanced I am. Simple. Unfit, right side is stronger and I get minor back niggles.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Bantam's Avatar
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    I looked all over T-Nation for that article, thanks for posting. I'm a roadie, but I need strength so my early offseason is going to be a ton of DLs, Squats and 15 second sprints.
    2009 Paralympic Fast-O-Meter: 3/8

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    Here's a vote for lifting year round. For years I only lifted in winter but one season I decided to go against the coach's advice and lift during the season (to emphasize the track; road racing became secondary and for training mostly) and I saw benefits on the track. But the real big difference I saw was when I started doing power workouts rather than just squats and DLs. After a month of high pulls and some snatch/CJs I saw a real difference in my speed and jump--not the same rider at all.

    Very interesting article from Australia--thanks for posting. One thing I learned was not to do the same thing all the time, but to cycle my lifting every other month or so, so that different kinds of gains were possible rather than just approaching one goal ever more slowly. Peaking is a big deal too, and I played with this but it takes a lot of good research and coaching and I didn't get the kind of big results I got just by adding power lifting.

  20. #20
    Junior Member LUCINDOR's Avatar
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    I lift all year and I go heavy.
    Large muscular sprinter am I
    HOW AM I NOT MYSELF

  21. #21
    Senior Member lukewall's Avatar
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    find a muay thai gym. they focus on a LOT of explosiveness and endurance. no weights, a ton of calisthenics and body conditioning. i didn't get huge, but i could feel my body get a lot stronger and completely solid. spend 8 weeks training for a fight and when you get back on the bike you feel like a totally different rider.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Bantam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukewall View Post
    find a muay thai gym. they focus on a LOT of explosiveness and endurance. no weights, a ton of calisthenics and body conditioning. i didn't get huge, but i could feel my body get a lot stronger and completely solid. spend 8 weeks training for a fight and when you get back on the bike you feel like a totally different rider.
    So, bodyweight worked for you, and weights work for other people. There is not ONE WAY to get faster, there are many ways.
    2009 Paralympic Fast-O-Meter: 3/8

  23. #23
    Senior Member CafeRacer's Avatar
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    You may get explosive power from that kind of training, but if you plan on getting explosive power for match sprinting you'd be hard pressed to find a racer who doesnt use weights. It hasnt changed much in the past 50 years either. You also need to build strenth before you can work on the power aspect also. Most guys have 3 phases in the gym, if they've been doing it for many years its 2. Strenth and Power.

    The best way to learn how to make the gym work for you and get faster is to either find a world class sprinter to coach you, or talk to a power lifting trainer.

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    For the roadies reading this thread: even some "sprint specialist" road racers avoid weights altogether. Freddy Rodriguez is an example-- he does yoga, pilates, planks, and probably lies on the ground and "waives his legs in the air." Sometimes their "slow and heavy" work comes from riding low cadence uphill in a big gear. That's it.

    Not that plenty of RRs don't lift. Especially the flat crit racer types. Just that it's not mandatory like it is for trackies.

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    If your going to compare what roadie sprinters do vs. track sprinters then the origional poster needs to specify his question. Road sprinters are fast too but its a differant sprint than a specific track sprinters. A track sprint essentialy exploits all the things that make up any finish line sprint.

    Theres no reason why a road sprinter shouldnt hit the gym. The biggest reason road guys stay out of the gym is fear of getting hurt in the off season. Compared to a track sprinter the only differance would be the poundage. Its a great way to condition and cross train. At the same time it may add that little bit of extra horsepower that might help them get to the line faster.

    If you do some research you will also find that alot of track sprinters find they have more power when they're in the gym and taylor their workout to a race at the end of the week vs. getting out of the gym for the summer.

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