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  1. #1
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    My rear blew out!

    Rear tire that is. I was just exiting a turn at the Burnaby Velodrome when FFFSSSSSSTTT! my back tire goes flat. My first instinct was to grab for the brakes. That didn't work for obvious reasons. So I did my best to control the bike but the back wheel just slid out from under me and I went down on my right side then slid down the track head first on my back very ungracefully. I came out unscathed except a small spot of road (track) rash on my knee. The bike needed a new tube of course and handle bar tape.

    The cause of the flat is a mystery. It doesn't look like a pinch flat, there were no burs, sharp edges, debris, or anything that might have caused a puncture. Just a big gaping hole in the tube that let all the air out.

    Before any one tells me I would go tubeless if there were not so expensive!

  2. #2
    spinlikehell mickster's Avatar
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    am presuming that you were riding clinchers rather than tubulars; if there was a big star-shaped type hole in the tube rather than a tiny puncture hole then it was caused by the tyre blowing off the rim and the tube herniating out and popping. Usually caused by trapping the inner tube under part of the tyre bead when first putting the tyre on the rim.
    Hope you didn't take anyone else down with you

    mickster

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickster
    am presuming that you were riding clinchers rather than tubulars; if there was a big star-shaped type hole in the tube rather than a tiny puncture hole then it was caused by the tyre blowing off the rim and the tube herniating out and popping. Usually caused by trapping the inner tube under part of the tyre bead when first putting the tyre on the rim.
    Hope you didn't take anyone else down with you

    mickster
    I'm certain that wasn't the case. The tube looked like just snipped a piece out.

    After the summer is over I plan on doing a lot more track riding so perhaps I will invest on some tubulars.
    Last edited by Cycle-clops; 04-27-07 at 12:38 PM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member WithNail's Avatar
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    how are you going to do more track riding after the summer? Isn't season over at that point?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by WithNail
    how are you going to do more track riding after the summer? Isn't season over at that point?
    The track is open year round (indoor track). The official "racing" season doesn't start until November IIRC?

  6. #6
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    Sounds like mickster got it right to me. Tubulars on the track aren't terribly expensive when you consider how long they'll usually last.

    I haven't ridden Burnaby in an age. Is it still plywood with that big gap betwen the "apron" and the boards? I'd rather eat worms than ride clinchers on a tight board track...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours
    Sounds like mickster got it right to me. Tubulars on the track aren't terribly expensive when you consider how long they'll usually last.

    I haven't ridden Burnaby in an age. Is it still plywood with that big gap betwen the "apron" and the boards? I'd rather eat worms than ride clinchers on a tight board track...
    The Burnaby Velodrome is like an old wooden roller coaster. The creaks, pops, and groans just add to the excitement!

  8. #8
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    The sideways bunnyhop to get onto the track surface was enough excitement for me! Neat track. Don't think I'd want to ride a madison with a dozen teams on it though...

  9. #9
    Upstanding member. Mike T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours
    I'd rather eat worms than ride clinchers on a tight board track...
    Just by personal choice? What's wrong with clinchers on a board track? They do just fine on our FCV and it's tighter than Burnaby. I've seen way more flat tubulars than flat clinchers there and clinchers must outnumber tubulars by 10:1.

  10. #10
    Senior Member CafeRacer's Avatar
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    Clinchers do outnumber tubies at FCV but thats because most of the riders there done crack 6th gear or weigh 180+

    Burnaby no longer has the huge gap, its a smooth "up" onto the track. Though it still creaks and pops. IT is a really fun track, other than what feels like a mountain bike ride as you wind up at the rail and the occasional loose board.

  11. #11
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    Just by personal choice?
    Pretty much.

    What's wrong with clinchers on a board track?
    They're harder to ride when they're flat. A rear puncture on a tubular gives a talented rider a better than 50/50 chance to ride away, IMO. A flat clincher is markedly less promising.

    They do just fine on our FCV and it's tighter than Burnaby. I've seen way more flat tubulars than flat clinchers there and clinchers must outnumber tubulars by 10:1.
    Yeah, I've heard from "people in the know" that clinchers work on the boards, so that's not really my argument. I only maintain that tubulars offer a safety margin in case of puncture. If the argument is that clinchers are 10 times less likely to puncture than tubulars, though, I ain't buyin'.

  12. #12
    Upstanding member. Mike T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours
    They're harder to ride when they're flat. IMO. A flat clincher is markedly less promising.
    Yep I'll admit that. But with the minor chance of a clincher blowout (I ride the FCV an average of 2x weekly for the past two years and have yet to witness one), clinchers are a very safe bet.

    If the argument is that clinchers are 10 times less likely to puncture than tubulars, though, I ain't buyin'.
    My actual quote was "I've seen way more flat tubulars than flat clinchers there and clinchers must outnumber tubulars by 10:1."
    If I had $5 for every tub I've seen go flat I could buy me a new tire. If I had $5 for every clincher I've seen go flat I couldn't buy a round o' Tim's and there are far more clinchers than tubulars.

    I've lost track of the numbers of riders who say "Uhh I can't ride tonight, one of my tubs is flat" as they prepare to ride (one was just last week). No, not many ever show up with a spare set o' wheels. With a clincher rider we'd jam in a new tube and he'd be riding PDQ.

    Yes I'd be the first to agree that the heavier and faster and more accomplished the rider the more sense tubulars make. But most of us (even some of our top riders) don't fit the criteria (or just choose not to) so therefore clinchers are predominant.

    Also, at the FCV about 85% of the riders are Recreational riders (they don't race; they just ride and/or train) and for them (IMO) tubulars make much less sense.
    Last edited by Mike T.; 04-28-07 at 10:38 AM.

  13. #13
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    All I can say is that either Canadians have REALLY bad tubulars or REALLY good clinchers! In fifteen years of racing tracks all over the world, I think I've had two flats -- and I've never ridden clinchers. And the tires I've used have ranged from $10 road training pieces of **** to $250 Conti Olympics. (I think one flat was a wide cotton Wolber that blew because I'd been riding it on cords, and the other was a silk Clement that blew out a sidewall around the valve. One of the loudest sounds I've heard in my life!)

    OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen a clincher go flat on the track, although I come from a time when hardly anybody rode clinchers on the track.

    Now that I think about it, I've probably seen a dozen flat tires resulting from riding on the track in my whole life. There just shouldn't be any reason to puncture on the track. Do they have brooms in Canada?

  14. #14
    Upstanding member. Mike T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours
    Do they have brooms in Canada?
    Maybe the board nails are sticking through in the "fastguy" lane. I'll check next time I'm there.

  15. #15
    spinlikehell mickster's Avatar
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    Mike - Although there may be a 'minor chance of a clincher blowout' on the track that's exactly what the OP was describing having happened to him, so six jours' comments re tubs being easier to handle in the event of a blowout are actually relevent here.

    As to the wider tubs / clinchers debate, much like the lockring / no lockring, tub tape / glue etc debates that permeate track forums and infields everywhere the arguments for and against have been aired ad nauseam; am I the only one who finds it really strange that people get so passionate in their opinions about these things

    What I wanna know is how Cycle-clops got a big blow out in his inner tube without the tube herniating out from the tyre - has to surely be either a large tear in the tyre or else the tube coming out from under the tyre bead? Can't see how else this could have happened.

    mickster

  16. #16
    Upstanding member. Mike T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickster
    Mike - Although there may be a 'minor chance of a clincher blowout' on the track that's exactly what the OP was describing having happened to him, so six jours' comments re tubs being easier to handle in the event of a blowout are actually relevent here.
    Yep I think I already aknowledged your last fact.

    am I the only one who finds it really strange that people get so passionate in their opinions about these things
    I just wanted to debate Six Jours' comment of "I'd rather eat worms than ride clinchers on a tight board track". That makes it sound like he knows they are very dangerous when it's a fact that they're not - shown by the fact that (from my viewpoint) it's so rare that it's a none issue.

    What I wanna know is how Cycle-clops got a big blow out in his inner tube without the tube herniating out from the tyre - has to surely be either a large tear in the tyre or else the tube coming out from under the tyre bead? Can't see how else this could have happened.
    That doesn't seem to be what happened to Cycle-clops. What happened to him was "The tube looked like just snipped a piece out" when he replied to your suggestion of "the tyre blowing off the rim and the tube herniating out and popping. Usually caused by trapping the inner tube under part of the tyre bead when first putting the tyre on the rim."

    I'll still stand by my original findings - hundreds of thousands of laps must have been ridden on clincher bikes in the past two years of operation. The rare flats that I witness are caused mostly by faulty rim tapes (which our rentals were plagued with at the start) and valve stems leaking at the entrance to the tube. These didn't cause riding blowouts but mostly idle time deflations or deflations when pumping. I've yet to witness a catastrophic blowout on the banking. That's not to say that none have happened.

  17. #17
    Upstanding member. Mike T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeRacer
    Clinchers do outnumber tubies at FCV but thats because most of the riders there done crack 6th gear or weigh 180+
    Jamie, after last night's "kiss of the wood" due to tubular problems have you any thoughts of improving your future chances and self-preservation by switching to clinchers?

    I hope you're ok and getting up & around.
    Last edited by Mike T.; 04-29-07 at 07:13 AM.

  18. #18
    Senior Member CafeRacer's Avatar
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    I wont ever race on clinchers. Ill train on them for the simple reason that if I flat I just change the tube. I prefer the feel of a tubular. Espessialy at FCV. What happend on Saturday was freak non the less. No rider at FCV on clincher or tubular should have to fear or worry about that happening.

    Were still up in the air a little but 2 of us at work and a sales rep studied the crash, whats left of the tubie and the wheel aswell as the front witch is still glued on tight. It looks more and more like the tubie flatted and then peeled off under the upward force. Thus directing my pelvis into the middle of turn 2 at full speed. Shame cause that was a nice tubular too. It cost me a &#^@ing paycheck for those! Just a part of racing I guess

    But thanks Mike! I spent all night in emerg getting X-Rays head to toe as they treated it like a motorcycle crash. Sunday hurt alot, I tried to ride around my block to keep my hip moving but every bump sent pain thru my pelvis and both colarbones (witch Ill be damed that I didnt break). By Tuesday I was back on a bike spinning around and walking without a limp. Burnaby will be interesting.

  19. #19
    Upstanding member. Mike T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeRacer
    It looks more and more like the tubie flatted and then peeled off under the upward force. It cost me a &#^@ing paycheck for those!
    If I had any thoughts, however minutely slight, that I might go back to tubulars (I used them for track, training, road racing and TTs from early '60s to mid '80's) those thoughts are now totally gone Jamie. To paraphrase a phrase that started this discussion - "I'd rather eat worms than ride tubulars on a tight board track..."

  20. #20
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    Yeah, tubulars are only safer than clinchers if they're stuck on tight. I still prefer shellac for riding the boards.

  21. #21
    Upstanding member. Mike T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours
    Yeah, tubulars are only safer than clinchers if they're stuck on tight. I still prefer shellac for riding the boards.
    Whatever happened to shellac for track? Back in the day it was the only thing to use for track tubs. It was a labor-intensive process but at least the tubular (if it was done right) was guarenteed not to roll off. But then you might have the best stuck-on tire in the world but if the person who glued on your base tape was having a bad day.................

    I'm happy that tubulars are one less thing I have to worry about.

  22. #22
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    Shellac -- along with a whole bunch of other useful stuff (bike handling skills, intelligent decision making, etc.) -- was forgotten in the Lance-inspired bike boom of the late 90s, IMO. Too many newbies for the "old guard" to educate, is my take. (grump, grump.)

    And, truthfully, Vittoria Mastik 1 works very, very well. Not quite as strong as shellac, I don't think -- and creates a slower rolling tire, if you believe the testing -- but I've had to use a screwdriver to break the bond with a properly done Vittoria job.

    The base tape troubles, IMO, are/were caused almost entirely by FasTack. I remember Conti Sprinters, in particular, could be made into time bombs by the judicious application of 3M products...

    < edit > Hey, as long as we're attacking each other's position with incredibly unlikely failures ( ) have you ever seen the side of a clincher rim blow out? Nasty crash, that one...

  23. #23
    spinlikehell mickster's Avatar
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    With you pretty much all the way on this, 6J. Vittoria Mastik is as close to ambrosia as we can get in this shellac-depleted modern era. It's good stuff. And also with you re the implied Conti base tape / Fastak issues. I've always had good feelings towards Vittorias over most Contis in any case... But I can't approve of the continued baiting of Mike T - he's an affable retro-grouch in reverse. Rather than hankering after the old ways he gets his jollies from debunking the old and championing the new - 3/32", clinchers and cheap fujis. I bet he doesn't even use a lockring, the bounder Come to think of it, he's almost a roadie ! Come on Mike, embrace your heritage. Glue one up for ol' times sake

    mickster

  24. #24
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    Actually, I'm riding clinchers on the road these days. (Don't tell anyone.) I tried a few different clinchers, didn't like any of them, and was about to go to the 27mm Dugasts -- I'm pretty much a tourist these days -- and was talked into trying a big fat clincher that turned out to be wonderful, almost matching the old Clement Del Mundos.

    Thing is, the only thing that really keeps me from using expensive tubulars on the road is the cost and hassle of punctures. I dunno what the heck Mike's mates are doing to get so many flats on the track, but the velodrome is the one place where punctures are essentially a non-issue for me. In a "flat free environment" I use the best handmade tubulars money can buy, for the ride if nothing else.

    Each to his own, as they say, but I'd still rather eat worms...

  25. #25
    Upstanding member. Mike T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickster
    But I can't approve of the continued baiting of Mike T
    I didn't get the impression that anyone was doing any baiting. I just have the time and willingness to "debate" (if that's what it can be called) so I keep coming back until it's run its course - or until you guys smarten up.

    he's an affable retro-grouch in reverse. Rather than hankering after the old ways he gets his jollies from debunking the old and championing the new - 3/32", clinchers and cheap fujis. I bet he doesn't even use a lockring, the bounder Come to think of it, he's almost a roadie ! Come on Mike, embrace your heritage. Glue one up for ol' times sake
    Holy cow you have me pigeon holed into a few holes there mickster! How little you know! Cheap Fujis work but I hate 'em - no soul. I use a lockring and a 1/8" chain pulling my '70 vintage Record hubs. I insisted on a threaded steerer on my year old Marinoni track bike. It's Cinelli old style bars & stem for me. Almost a roadie? Wanna pic of me in a 25 mile road TT back in '63? I'll be out on the road tomorrow and the track on Monday. To contrast the retro track bars and stem and advancing age are my carbon Argon18 road bike and my custom Ti Seven mountain bike with as much Ti on it as possible. It weighs 20lbs with the world's lightest stock disc brake setup - Formula B4SL - and rigid carbon Pace fork. But then I just wrapped my track bars with Brooks leather tape. Go figure.

    Edit - the wool shorts went years ago. I have two brakes on my road fixie.
    Last edited by Mike T.; 05-05-07 at 09:37 PM.

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