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Old 08-27-07, 12:50 PM   #1
iwritegraffiti
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yet another tubular question........

First, I've been searching this forum and reading different threads for hours, but couldn't find what I needed.......

I just ordered the $140.00 Mavic Formula tubular wheelset from wheelandsprocket.com. I intend for these to be a set of training wheels for my bike, and an intro. to sew-ups, with which I have 0 experience. My question has to do with tire choice(training tires=inexpensive=Conti. Giro/something similar). Since I do some training on the road, I'm worried about flatting 40 miles from my house...... So....

1. How hard is it to change to a spare tubular on the side of the road(glue vs. tufo tape)????????

2. Should I buy 3 or 4 Giro's, so as to have spares...

or

3. Should I buy just 2 better quality tires (more/better flat protection???????)

4. What about the Tufo tire sealant. Does it work like that green Slime stuff?????? And, does it work on different brands???

Thanks, guys.
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Old 08-27-07, 01:04 PM   #2
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It's not that hard to change a tubular on the side of the road but it'll take longer than your typical tube change and if you are using glue it will be pretty messy. In addition to that you're really supposed to let the glue dry for at least 24 hours before riding so you'll have to be careful on the corners.

Personally I don't think it's worth it. I used to ride my track bike with my track wheels to the track but after flatting 4 times in 2 months (this was riding once a week!) I gave up on that and just kept my wheels at the track (I'd take the wheels off my commuter and use them on my track bike to get to/from the track).

Of course I was using track racing tires which weren't suited for riding on the road.
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Old 08-27-07, 01:11 PM   #3
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By quality tires, they last longer. Tufo sealant works on Tufo tires best, they are tubeless not just tubular and it's made to work with them. All other tubulars, use Victoria Pit Stop and yes it does work. Tape is easier to go on, glue is easier to come off. A pre-glued and dried tubular can be used as a spare, pump it up to it's higher limits to go home and don't hammer the corners like a crit, normal cornering will be fine. I ride and commute on tubulars constantly. I have over 2700 miles on the same pair of tubulars, no flats.

If you ride the tape and no crit racing, use the less adhesive stuff. The 'red' tape has been known to rip the base tape off of a tire and the lamination off of some carbon rims. It will also make you cuss like a sailor trying to get the silly tire off. Normal training and track riding the lower level stuff is fine. Track corners are banked so the loads are less extreme trying to roll the tire off, it's actually harder on the adhesive when you are going slow on a banked curve.
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Old 08-27-07, 01:22 PM   #4
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Wow..... 2700 miles!!!!!!! How do you do it? I talk to people all the time who rarely flat, too bad I can't be lucky like that..

Thanks for the quick replies, guys......
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Old 08-27-07, 03:12 PM   #5
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Yeah, more or less all of the above.

Giros are very cheap tires and one of the last vestiges of tires that just don't last well. Get something like a Continental Sprinter -- it's a middling decent tire, costs about $34 if you buy several (split the order with a friend or two), gives you most of the benefits of tubular tires and lasts pretty much forever. No point in getting a tire so cheap it rides like a bad clincher. Also no point in spending too much at this point until you decide whether tubulars are for you.

I suggest you learn to use rim cement rather than tape -- I prefer Vittoria Mastik One. It takes a few more steps than the tape but you don't have as obnoxious a clean-up problem afterwards. And you should know how to do it right with glue anyway. The first gluing job takes perhaps 3 days (2 days each to put a coat on the rim and the tire and let them dry thoroughly, then on the 3rd day apply a coat to the rim, mount the tire, inflate hard, and let it sit for a day til the glue sets. Prestretch the tire on a clean rim to make it easier to go on (simply mount it on the rim and inflate overnight -- it stretches the tire and especially the base tape so you don't have to fight it on when you have glue all over.

Tufo sealant sometimes works well on non-Tufo tires and sometimes is horrible. On road tubulars it often won't seal a larger hole at riding pressures -- it may get you home, or it may work on cyclocross tubulars at low pressures, but isn't that practical on road tires. And it needs enough tire tread depth to plug the hole. With tubulars with separate inner tubes (nearly everything except Tufos) the stuff can flow out of the inner tube and along the casing outside the tube; this congeals into a mess that can ruin the tire. Hey, you wanted to ride tubulars and they really are great. You can learn how to repair tubulars easily so since you wanted a learning experience anyway, I'd suggest you not bother with the Tufo sealant. We've tested it in all kinds of ways and never gotten it to work all that reliably. And at track pressures (we're on a track forum) it really has a tendency to fail.

When your first rear tire wears the tread down or when you repair your first flat, put a fresh coat of rim cement on that tire, patch up any areas with fresh cement where it got pulled off while removing the tire, and carry that tire as your spare. It'll stick surprisingly well if you flat and have to change to it. Don't do crazy maneuvers because it's not a fully legitimate gluing job, but it's enough to get you home. Until you have that spare tire, just carry an extra new tire.

To get the tire off the easiest and without any damage, slide under the tire a flat metal tire iron, a medium sized screwdriver with the edges and corners ground off the end, or even an allen key in a pinch. There's less glue wherever there's a spoke hole under the tire, so just roll the tire up on one side til the spoke hole is visible, insert the tool into it and gently lever up until you can push the tool across and out the other side. Don't stab the tire or tear the base tape. Then rock it slightly and pull it along with both hands with the wheel between your knees. Rock each way, then pull it a couple inches. In fifteen seconds, you have half of the tire unglued. Then pull that off the rim and simply pull the rest off the rim. It's that easy.
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Old 08-27-07, 08:18 PM   #6
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Thanks again guys.... Very helpful.
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Old 08-27-07, 08:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi View Post
It's not that hard to change a tubular on the side of the road but it'll take longer than your typical tube change and if you are using glue it will be pretty messy. In addition to that you're really supposed to let the glue dry for at least 24 hours before riding so you'll have to be careful on the corners.

Personally I don't think it's worth it. I used to ride my track bike with my track wheels to the track but after flatting 4 times in 2 months (this was riding once a week!) I gave up on that and just kept my wheels at the track (I'd take the wheels off my commuter and use them on my track bike to get to/from the track).

Of course I was using track racing tires which weren't suited for riding on the road.
yoshi ,

with ur luck, be happy with 4. too bad u did not come to the classes i gave.

see u on Monday.

S/F,
CEYA!
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Old 09-06-07, 12:51 PM   #8
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Just got the above-mentiones wheelset and tires glues together, and went for my first ride yesterday. Rode less than ten miles before I got a flat...... Aaaarrrgghhh!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 09-06-07, 01:15 PM   #9
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Just got the above-mentiones wheelset and tires glues together, and went for my first ride yesterday. Rode less than ten miles before I got a flat...... Aaaarrrgghhh!!!!!!!!!!
that sucks.
i rode 4 days on a vittoria rally before i flatted, it was spectacular, it made loud pop and then gsssshhhhh as all the air blew out...big hole.
i wouldn't buy crappy tubulars, i only paid 5 bucks for that one.

i've gotten some good miles out of sprinters.
just the other night, i flatted my 2 week old gatorskin sprinter what was on the back, glued an old sprinter on, rode a few miles the next day and flatted the front tire (it was raining that night and i think i rode through some glass), glued on my other old sprinter (cheap ebay NOS tire, didn't actually ride that well) then rode about two miles and then noticed some road trash had cut my sidewall and the tube was bulging out. so that was 3 tires in about 6 miles that flatted.

put my clincher wheelset back on since i don't have any nice tires left. i'm going to send two regular 2007 sprinters and the gatorskin to tirealert to be retubed...
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Old 09-06-07, 02:29 PM   #10
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I agree, u can get very good milage from a good tubular if u take care of it obviously.

I know some people will disagree but well... 100 psi not more than that, when u r done for the day take the air out a little (40 psi or so ) bit. Tubulars tend to expand if u let them with air for a long term and then it will useless.

I have a pair at home that probably have like 5k on it, but no flats. I'll trash it soon.

In general for training purposes get the heviest tubular u can find (hope it fits your fork), why? because u wont be able to get a single puncture on it probably in years before trashing it. 260/290 grams tubulars are awesome for the street also. I know people will disagree but well is only a personal oppinion. In races put the best u can thats all.

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Wow..... 2700 miles!!!!!!! How do you do it? I talk to people all the time who rarely flat, too bad I can't be lucky like that..

Thanks for the quick replies, guys......
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Old 09-06-07, 03:47 PM   #11
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Yeah, I hear what you guys are saying about cheap tires, but the one that I flatted was actually a new Conti. Sprinter... Not so cheap....... Now, I know it's not top o' the line, but...C'mon...!!!!!!

Anyways, I just wanted to vent a little....... Too bad I can't put my clinchers back on temporarilt... I traded them on craigslist. Ha ha ha
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Old 09-06-07, 04:00 PM   #12
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Yeah, I hear what you guys are saying about cheap tires, but the one that I flatted was actually a new Conti. Sprinter... Not so cheap....... Now, I know it's not top o' the line, but...C'mon...!!!!!!

Anyways, I just wanted to vent a little....... Too bad I can't put my clinchers back on temporarilt... I traded them on craigslist. Ha ha ha
yeah, and if you do a patch yourself and sew it back up, it will most likely be lumpy.
so what gave you a flat? bits of glass (from the bike lane i think) did mine in. i should've thoroughly checked my tires after i rode through that glass. i bet it embedded in my tires and it took a few miles for it to work all the way into the tube.
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Old 09-06-07, 04:10 PM   #13
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260/290 grams tubulars are awesome for the street also.
which do you ride?
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Old 09-06-07, 06:11 PM   #14
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That a Conti Sprinter flatted on your first ride on tubulars isn't a problem with the Sprinter, it's a problem with your karma. Seriously, aside from having walked your bike out of the apartment, under a ladder, past a broken mirror, and then running over a black cat in your first ten miles, flats happen for one of two reasons -- karma and your riding style.

I say the latter because some people simply collect flats while other people pretty much never have them. I ride training rides most days with three riders who are also on tubulars. My last flat was about 18 months ago, or about 12,000 miles ago. I'm usually (knock-knock on wood) pretending the tire is worn enough so I can just get it off and put something else on -- they wear out first. But one of the riders flats every third ride or so, and one other flats at least once a month like religion. When you watch their riding, the guy who flats every third ride tends to go right through the glass, the one who flats occasionally does a much better job of steering around it (and the flats are when he is at the back of the line and gets led into glass by someone in front of him). Me, I watch for glass and also brush it off fast. I also don't ride over blackberry vines (which can have nasty thorns in them) or through the gravel patch in the middle of some intersections, or way over in the gutter where all the glass comes to rest. It's just playing the odds. People say that tubulars flat less, but I suspect also that people on tubulars take better care of their tires because they are more of a pain if they do flat. So before you completely lose it, just put another tire on (a Sprinter is just fine) and devote a little of your attention to the road surface. Tubulars are like dogs -- give them a little love and they reward with love.
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Old 09-06-07, 08:15 PM   #15
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flats happen for one of two reasons -- karma and your riding style.
yeah, my brother was telling me i had the triplet of flats in one night and the next afternoon because i bought some 9speed campy record hubs with mavic reflex ceramic rims for $75 from some lady at a bike swap meet. the guy she sold them for asked why his wheels were behind her chair and she said oh i sold them...when she said $75 the guys just "NOOOO more money more money." but she told him too late. i didn't hear about this until we were halfway home...i was iding to the ATM
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Old 09-06-07, 08:52 PM   #16
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Honestly, I guess it's the karma.... I 'thought' I was doing a good job of watching where I was going.... I'll definitely give it another try, but, for the moment I seem to be one of those guys who always flats. I suppose I'll try to pay even more attention to where I ride, or at least change it up somehow.... Maybe I'll get a beater MTB and just load the tires up with that Slime stuff....
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Old 09-06-07, 10:17 PM   #17
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I really like and appreciate tubulars and am happy to encourage people to try them out. But when I run into someone who just flats a lot, I recommend that he/she just stick with clinchers. There's no point in getting angry at your tires a lot if you don't have a full-time mechanic to follow you around on rides and handle the repairs afterwards. Tubulars are honestly not all that bad for most of us, but if you need to be reborn to ride on tubulars, accept your fate and enjoy your clinchers.
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Old 09-07-07, 11:50 AM   #18
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. . . If you ride the tape and no crit racing, use the less adhesive stuff. . .
According to Tufo North America the standard tape is for cyclocross, not track or road. I used it
on a pair of Conti Sprinters and in the heat here (texas) it formed some sort of oozy sticky goo that
collected any debris within a 2 mile radius.

As for the not getting flats, wear gloves and learn to wipe tires, works for me and I haven't had
a flat in 2.5 years.

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Old 09-07-07, 01:27 PM   #19
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which do you ride?
?? u mean where i get 250+ grams tubulars? many companies are still making them. In argentina u can get criterium, alvarez and monti. In italy u have veloflex for example... continentals sprinters came in 250 grams. PANARACER PRACTICE DUAL TOUR GUARD 300 is a 300 grams 22.2 mms tubular that probably will last years if u take care of them.

Some bubulars are heavy because of the materials and stuff but arent that bulky or wider than a regular 220 grams tubulars, the monti ones are 260 grams in a 20 mms tubular thats god darn nice. Sometimes even the ride is softer than a 200 grams one. THe roading bands loast longer also and u are less exposed to get cuts in the sides because usually the roading band covers more side surface than in a lighter tubular.

Tufo does good stuff also but u cant patch them, so if the hole is too big u cant fix it.

Rearding tubular repairs? Well isnt that hard to fix them, if u are good at it in 20 mins u have the thing fixed and sawed back all together and ready to put it back into the rim. For example, the tubular blow up, u have super big hole in the tubular, u can fix it, just use an old tubular carcass, and patch the hole obviously put the patch inside. Then patch the tire/tube, sew again. Glue the tape, u r done. If u are good at it u can even change the whole tube and nobody will notice it.

Sometimes in the long term tubulars are cheaper. A good pair of clinchers are 100 bucks each. For 50 bucks u can get a pair of panaracers, and panaracer tubulars arent bad at all. Well all depends on what do you want to acomplish also.

Thanks.
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Old 09-07-07, 02:08 PM   #20
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yeah, i was wondering if you would mention the panaracer practice...worldclasscycles.com has them.
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Old 09-16-07, 04:50 PM   #21
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Why not look at this the practical way??? Ask around how many people get flats on the roads you intend to ride on. If the roads are **** and hard on tires, or people get punctures all the time dont ride tubulars on them.

Clinchers are super easy to deal with, Tubulars also can come off at the most in opertune moment if you dont know how to glue them properly. Most people use too much glue, using too much glue soaks thru the backing tape and the two seperate. A problem becoming more prevelant now that companies have to use more enviromentaly friendly glues.
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Old 09-18-07, 05:57 PM   #22
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Back in my racing days we used a product that was found at Sears auto stores. It was called Fastack trim adhesive #8031. It was an automotive trim adhesive in a tube. Used it to glue my road and track tires on. Real easy, no mess. Didnt need alot. Dried real fast too. Never rolled a tire or had any problems. Might still be around.
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