Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 36 of 36
  1. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    260
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    thanks Carleton!

    Im finishing up now my first track season, and i did a lot of weights in the offseason, but summer on i laid off the weights, and focused on interval training ans max effort sprints. Lots of overgeared and undergeared 200s, 333s, starts, 1 min efforts, etc. I feel like when i ditched the gym and started chasing the speed is when i started actually getting faster.

  2. #27
    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    1,846
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Here is a question that I always get a thousand different answers to. For on the bike "max" training. Which of these three options do what? Are they all useful? The numbers are aproximations for my own riding, I don't have a ton of power, and my spin is average.

    Smaller gear(85in) and past redline rpm(200)
    Race gearing (92in) and "max" rpm (150)
    Over geared (110in) and low rpm (90)
    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

  3. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    104
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Good stuff. Thanks for bumping.

  4. #29
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,026
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayce View Post
    Here is a question that I always get a thousand different answers to. For on the bike "max" training. Which of these three options do what? Are they all useful? The numbers are aproximations for my own riding, I don't have a ton of power, and my spin is average.

    Smaller gear(85in) and past redline rpm(200)
    Race gearing (92in) and "max" rpm (150)
    Over geared (110in) and low rpm (90)
    Power is a combination of Leg Speed and Torque. Leg speed and Torque must be trained separately then together.

    It is my personal opinion, that doing legspeed work over 170-180RPM doesn't help much as you will never reach those cadences in any racing. Others feel differently.

    But, training to push/pull with lots of force (torque) has no limits as there are situations where you press as hard as you can (standing starts or rolling jumps).
    Last edited by carleton; 09-25-13 at 08:17 PM.

  5. #30
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    South Africa
    My Bikes
    S-1 :-D
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    ... I also did low bar and front squat...ass to grass, 3x5 reps (not counting warmup). I also did power cleans as well as dead lifts. ....
    Carleton, I've been doing a bit of research on squat techniques and there is a lot of divided opinion on depth of squat. My coach reckons A to G is good, as it gives tight joint angles, but if i look at the actual on-bike joint angles, (qualitatively), they dont seem as tight at all, and a proper parallel squat looks sufficient (and our current national champ goes for parallel

    What was your reasoning behind the A to G depth?
    And for strength for track, which bar position do you suggest?

    Thanks :-)

  6. #31
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,026
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    Carleton, I've been doing a bit of research on squat techniques and there is a lot of divided opinion on depth of squat. My coach reckons A to G is good, as it gives tight joint angles, but if i look at the actual on-bike joint angles, (qualitatively), they dont seem as tight at all, and a proper parallel squat looks sufficient (and our current national champ goes for parallel

    What was your reasoning behind the A to G depth?
    And for strength for track, which bar position do you suggest?

    Thanks :-)
    Ass to Grass trains the hamstring via Lombard's Paradox:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard%27s_Paradox

    Lombard's Paradox describes a paradoxical muscular contraction in humans. When rising to stand from a sitting or squatting position, both the hamstrings and quadriceps contract at the same time, despite their being antagonists to each other.
    If you don't go down deep enough (in squat or leg press), you never engage (or train) the hamstrings. This is called a "Hack Squat". This only engages the quads.

    Often people do hack squats and can do them to impressive weights. But, they are only training the front-side of their legs. Cycling uses both the front and back sides of the legs, the quads and hamstrings.

    Yes, you can do only Hack Squats. But, you are only training 2/3 of your leg muscles. Why not train the other 1/3?

    As far as bar position, I can't make a recommendation. I've used all 3 (high bar back, low bar back, and front). I can attest to the front squat requiring less weight to achieve the same training effect, which is why it is used. Basically, if you are working with less weight, you are lowering your risk of injury. But, it's a more technical lift. It's sorta awkward at first, but you can do it. It also keeps the spine erect.
    Last edited by carleton; 09-26-13 at 12:01 PM.

  7. #32
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,026
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Also, regarding hamstring engagement, when you go down deep enough, you'll feel the transition point from primarily relying on the quads and switching to the hamstrings to "get out of the hole". If you stay above parallel femur, you never get "in the hole" and never work the hamstrings.

    When the weight gets high as you progress, it is easy to slip into doing hack squats and not go down deep enough. This is why it is recommended that you have someone watch you or you video your form to check. I did this when I was well over 300# and realized that I wasn't going deep enough and I reluctantly had to reset like -50# till I got my form together and brought my hamstrings up to strength.

    Also, don't get caught up in numbers. That's easy to do! Form is WAY more important that numbers.

  8. #33
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    South Africa
    My Bikes
    S-1 :-D
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Cool, thanks. makes sense

  9. #34
    JMR
    JMR is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    252
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Also, regarding hamstring engagement, when you go down deep enough, you'll feel the transition point from primarily relying on the quads and switching to the hamstrings to "get out of the hole". If you stay above parallel femur, you never get "in the hole" and never work the hamstrings.

    When the weight gets high as you progress, it is easy to slip into doing hack squats and not go down deep enough. This is why it is recommended that you have someone watch you or you video your form to check. I did this when I was well over 300# and realized that I wasn't going deep enough and I reluctantly had to reset like -50# till I got my form together and brought my hamstrings up to strength.

    Also, don't get caught up in numbers. That's easy to do! Form is WAY more important that numbers.
    I was told that breaking past parallel in a squat also engages the glutes (as well as hamstrings that is).

    Is that right Carleton?

    JMR

  10. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    My Bikes
    Marin Stelvio, Pogliaghi road, Panasonic track, Dolan DF3
    Posts
    671
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Smaller gear(85in) and past redline rpm(200)

    -I generally agree with what Carleton said about small gears, except that on this gear (85") I doubt you'll see 200 rpm on the track unless you are world class, that would really be cruising! If you can hit 200 on an 85, you should race on it! Training a gear that is somewhat under your race gear (if you race 94, then 86-90) can be beneficial in a couple of ways. If you do 200's on it, it will train your leg speed, if you train jumps on it, it can help your quickness and explosiveness. It is akin to doing dynamic effort squats in the gym. I would agree with Carleton that training in gears tiny enough to let you see 200 rpm on the road or track is of little benefit.

    Race gearing (92in) and "max" rpm (150)-

    It all depends what you do here. This is what you want to race in, so you should train in it too, though I'm not often training in my race gear until fairly close to an event. It's usually a little over or a little under. That said, power efforts like flying 500's are often trained around race gear. I think for power efforts, you will ideally be near your race pace in terms of rpms.

    Over geared (110in) and low rpm (90)[/QUOTE]-

    Obviously, a big gear helps for strength if used for starts. It seems like a lot of people also like to use big gears for power efforts in the off/early season as well. Jumps in a big gear are beneficial too and if done ballistically enough can be a hell of an all-body workout. These tend to really taper off, at least for the sprinters I've worked out with, close to a goal event.

    Perhaps a general tendency I've seen-- the farther in time you are away from a goal event, the farther your training gears are (both over and under-sized) from your race gear. I definitely think training in gears other than your race gear is beneficial in terms of developing both explosiveness with the small gear and strength with the big gear.

    There's also the issue of motor pacing, where you are generally on a race gear, but may be training at above race pace. The effect can be similar to small gear efforts in terms of leg speed, but there is something else going on that's a little hard to define. Some say training at higher than race speeds acclimates you to go faster both physically and mentally.

  11. #36
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    5,413
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    There's also the issue of motor pacing, where you are generally on a race gear, but may be training at above race pace. The effect can be similar to small gear efforts in terms of leg speed, but there is something else going on that's a little hard to define. Some say training at higher than race speeds acclimates you to go faster both physically and mentally.
    Oh definitely. It's easier, too, to hold your speed high, and therefore help keep your effort level steady (and high!). Definitely super valuable - at least in my experience.

    Like sucking wheel of somebody super fast on the road, or hauling ass with a tailwind or something.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •