Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 36
  1. #1
    Banned. $ick3nin.vend3t's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    981
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    The Strength and Conditioning Program for the Australian National Sprint Cycling Team

    Here is a unique view from the strength and conditioning coach for the Australian National Sprint Cycling Team. My apologies if the following has been posted previously. It is doing the rounds of some bike forums, so some may have already seen it. Lightly edited by me for the forum. There's no name on it and that's how I came upon it, but the guy's name is no secret.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    "I am currently the Strength and Conditioning Coach for the Australian
    National Sprint Cycling Team and have been for about five years. I am also
    the Strength Scientist for the South Australian Sports Institute in
    Adelaide, Australia, where the National Sprint Program is based. In
    addition, for "fun", I help coach a group of developmental sprint cyclists,
    which form the core of our SA State Sprint team and half of whom are now in
    the Top 10 sprinters in Australia, which would make them National champions
    in all but a handful of countries and, when I get time, I roll around the
    track myself.

    Some points (for free):

    1. We don't keep any secrets from anyone, including the Poms, the Frogs, Ze
    Germans or the Yanks. In fact, people just generally don't believe what we
    tell them, disagree or their programs (or minds) are too set in concrete to
    change. We invite other top riders to train with us and they get faster, but
    they go home and do the same old thing. The Head Coach, support staff and I
    are happy to tell anyone and everyone what we do. We usually just don't get
    time to sit around on chat rooms or make social chit chat on E-mail, let
    alone write a book.

    What Charlie Walsh and Gary West used to do with our sprinters when they
    were the Head Coaches was state of the art at the time and they are both
    great coaches. You will not find anyone in Australian Cycling who will
    question that or say a word against what they did at the time, but times
    have changed and those methods are not quite enough to consistently hit the
    top spots now, although you can still be troublesome internationally if
    you've got natural speed. The top speeds have gone to a new level and to
    reach that level, you have to specialise your sprint riders more. I'm sure
    if Charlie and Westy were still coaching the Oz team, they wouldn't be doing
    exactly the same things they were doing ten years ago. They are too smart
    for that.

    Most of what we do is based on methods and research that have been around
    for decades but have not been applied to cycling. It has mostly been used in
    athletics and we have copied a lot from that and what the French and Germans
    have done at various times. The Brits were formerly coached by our current
    Head Track Coach, so they do a lot of similar things too. What the Dutch are
    doing now, I'm not sure, but they were mostly all speed skaters before they
    were top cyclists, so maybe there's something in that.

    2. We are constantly trying new things and changing what we do, so what we
    do this year will be different to what we did last year and so on. Australia
    is a small country and is competing with some real powerhouses in terms of
    talent pools, resources and money that we can't even dream of matching, so
    we have to be a step ahead or we're not in the race.

    3. What sprinters did 10 years ago is completely different to what most of
    the top sprinters are doing now. The critical factors that determine success
    or failure have changed. Tactics have changed and the tournament formats
    have changed. Training that would win 10 years ago is generally not as
    successful today, but every dog has his or her day and some old-school
    trainers still come out on top now and again, but it is happening less and
    less.

    4. Our philosophy is simple. Most events are speed endurance. To win you
    need to go faster for longer than the other guy or gal. Some riders are
    better at faster, some are better at longer, but they generally need a bit
    of both. To have speed endurance, first you need speed. If you can't ride
    5.0 for a flying 100m, you won't ride 10.1 for a 200m. Speed is hard to
    train and takes a long time. Endurance is easy by comparison and we just
    chuck that on at the end. To get up to speed, you need acceleration and that
    means power. Power is a combination of strength and speed. The speed part
    you get on the track, the strength you get in the gym. Low cadence power
    (0-120rpm or so) we can train in the gym too, but high cadence power
    (120-200rpm) is too fast to do in the gym and you generally need to be
    chasing a maniac on a motorbike (e.g., our Head Coach) down the bank to
    increase that. Or at least, someone faster than you to break the wind so you
    can go overspeed.

    5. Aerobic Capacity (VO2max, AT) is the base for enduros, strength is the
    base for sprinters. We do three gym sessions and two track sessions for most
    of the year. Road is just for recovery, to keep them a little bit lean and
    to keep the sprinters out of the pub and out of trouble. It is generally a
    max of 2hrs, but mostly only 1 and is very easy - talking the whole time.

    6. When strength is the focus, we don't care what numbers they pump out on
    track, just what they lift. When power or speed is the focus, we back the
    gym off (2/wk and easier sessions) so we can get the numbers we want on the
    track (3-4/wk). Generally, half the year is spent focussed on strength and
    half on power and speed (roughly - depends on competitive calendar) although
    we always train a bit of everything, it's just the proportion of each that
    changes. The strength work is not all done in one block. We cycle through
    strength, power and speed at least twice per year.

    7. Gym is generally 3-4sets of 3 max lower body strength or power lifts -
    early in the phase, two strength and one power, later, two power and one
    strength. I don't use cleans, jerks or snatches with our current riders -
    they are too technical for maximal efforts unless you have years of
    experience. We do one bilateral strength lift each session for "core"
    strength (Squat, Deadlift, Romanian Deadlift) - usually lower back is the
    limiting factor not legs and this is the only reason I use these lifts - for
    back strength in standing starts. The rest of the lifts are unilateral. How
    many feet do you push each pedal with at one time? If you train bilaterally
    you get stronger bilaterally and unilateral strength lags behind. If you
    train unilaterally, you get stronger unilaterally. It's a neural thing.

    Single-leg Press is our bread and butter. Different foot and hip positions
    for different phases of pedal stroke, standing, seated, etc. I use high
    speed video to match joint angles and velocities for each rider. We mainly
    do it ballistically for power - throw the sled as far as you can - at
    different percentages of max to match up to different muscle contraction
    velocities for different phases of the acceleration (different cadences). We
    do a lot of single-leg plyos on boxes, stairs, bunjee sleds, etc during
    speed phases. Strength and power gains are extremely specific and do not
    necessarily transfer well. When Ryan Bayley beat Sean Eadie in the
    Commonwealth Games sprint final in 2002, Sean was tripling 250kg for a
    parallel back squat and Ryan was tripling 120kg. On single-leg press, they
    were much closer (20kg) and so was the racing.

    Single-leg squats (front and back) and deadlifts usually make up the third
    exercise and are as much for pelvic stability as strength. I'm going to try
    single-leg pulls and cleans this year, but these will not be our primary
    power exercises - more of a preparation for the work before Beijing. We have
    done SL squats, deadlifts and pulls for years now and the riders are pretty
    stable. An example of numbers - our best single-leg squat figures are 3 @
    165kg on each leg (just over 360lbs). The weakest of the girls (who just
    entered the squad this year) is 3 @ 80kg on each leg, but she only weighs
    about 50kg. Two riders have done the 165kg so far. We have riders who can do
    sets of standing hops onto 1m+ boxes. The lowest is for one of the girls and
    is a 70cm box for sets of 8 each leg.

    8. Upper body, we do two exercise per session (a push and a pull in the same
    plane of movement, different each day) in general prep and two per week in
    specific prep (both pulls) so they can keep hold of the handlebars in
    standing starts. The girls are starting to push themselves off the bike,
    their legs are so strong (around 3 @ 250kg on each leg for the girls and up
    to 350kg for the guys on SLP). Abs and core, we do two per session - one
    mainly flexion, one mainly extension. Some have rotational or lateral
    components, but not isometric holds or pilates mumbo jumbo. If their "core
    stability" is poor, they wouldn't be able to squat on one leg. Lying on the
    ground and waving your legs in the air doesn't transfer to the bike. That
    might annoy the physio's and guru's who make money out of Swiss balls and
    all that stuff, but I tried it for three years in 20 different sports and it
    didn't make any difference to performance or injury rates. They get really
    good at balancing on a ball, but there's no Olympic event for that. It
    doesn't transfer to the sport. Fix their technical problems in the actual
    technique (soapbox time is now over).

    9. A Gym session lasts about 2.5-3 hours for 6 or 7 exercises, a maximum of
    33 sets including 12 warm-ups sets, so that's about one set every six
    minutes or more on average. We don't set maximum rests, just minimums. If
    they need longer to get their heads in gear, they take it. Ryan Bayley is
    the slowest trainer in the world. Lucky he's so bloody fast, they'll pay my
    bill to sit there and talk about muscle cars and heavy metal music. Reps are
    a maximum of 6 for strength, and 4 - 15 for power (less for high percentages
    - 60-70% max, more for low percentages - 20%, or BW for plyos) Total
    contraction time for a set (not counting hang time in the air) is around
    6-8s max - phosphate energy system all the way. Minimum of 2 min rest, but
    that is never in danger. Only the phosphate energy system can deliver energy
    fast enough for maximal work and you've got about 8s max.

    10. On the track they take about 3 hours for 3 or 4 efforts including half
    hour warm-up routine - same as pre-race warm-up. Warm-up, change gears,
    roll-up, effort, roll down 20-30min rest, roll-up, effort, etc. Lot's more
    rest. Rest usually consists of sitting on their arses, paying out on each
    other, drinking Coca Cola (sponsorship please - the Coke bill is killing us)
    and the occasional chocolate cake. This is especially good when there is a
    joint sprinter/enduro training session. (Enduros don't get any cake -
    they're too paranoid about body fat). In general prep phase, the sprinters
    ride to track and gym (15-20min easy each way) and in spec prep, they drive..
    Each track effort is no longer than about 15s and usually less than 10s.
    Again, mainly phosphate system.

    11. The one thing we do that most coaches can't cop is this. If you don't
    make the target times or loads on the first effort or set, you warm down and
    go home. You aren't fresh enough to train at a level that will make you
    improve. If you do a PB, you warm down and go home. If you are on fire that
    much you can blow yourself to pieces in a couple of sets or efforts and it
    will take weeks to dig you out of the hole you put yourself in, so whatever
    it is, if you PB, you stop and come back next time. This philosophy takes
    everyone a while to accept, but it works. When we don't follow the rules, if
    we let someone pump out a series of PBs in one session, they are almost
    invariably wrecked for weeks afterwards and we never get close to quality
    training during that time. Sometimes, you can see it coming, but sometimes
    it just comes out of the blue. When it does, warm down, go home. Sometimes,
    at lower levels you can get away with it, but the better you get, the more
    capacity you have to exceed your normal limits, the more this becomes
    important. Enduros don't need to do this. Everything is submaximal.

    12. In general prep, the sprinters might do 2 x 1hr easy aerobic/coffee
    rides per week and an easier recovery ride on days off (unless the're too
    fat, then they might do 2hrs and less chocolate cake). This year, we are
    doing a total of six aerobic development rides (over Christmas - fat time).
    In spec prep, they just do the recovery rides.

    13. We generally always do track after gym. Gym in mornings (8:30am-11/12)
    track in the arvo (2:30/3pm-5:30/6pm). If the gym session is too hard, it
    will bugger them for track. As I said, for about half the year, we don't
    care. For the other half, I water down the gym so the track work is 100%.
    There is some short term potentiation from doing some maximal strength or
    power efforts but the research is not clear on time frames since everyone
    does something different. This is one thing we are looking at. If we do two
    maximal power ergo tests (6s with 4-5min recovery), the second one is always
    much better. The same has been shown with some contrast-loading studies on
    squats and plyos, etc., but an equal number of studies have shown no effect..
    The time courses and stimuli are always different though, so it's hard to
    compare. I think there's something in it so if you find something that works
    for you, go with it. The exception is start sessions. We never do standing
    starts after gym. If we do, they are always crap sessions.

    14. Coming up to the major comp for the year (Worlds or Olympics), we slot
    in a speed endurance block. This involves the addition of some longer
    sustained efforts or sets of short efforts with low recovery once or twice
    per week, usually one on an ergo and one on the track. This increases the
    muscles ability to buffer hydrogen ions from the anaerobic glycolysis energy
    pathway that you have to rely on when the phosphates run out and increases
    the enzyme capacity of that pathway as well, so it can run at a higher
    level. Adaptation is relatively fast and 6-8wks will usually give a massive
    increase in this capacity.

    15. Here's the logic.
    Volume is a speed killer. It doesn't matter what you do, if you do a lot, it
    will make you slower. The protein in your muscles (myosin heavy chain
    isoforms for those who know their molecular biology) will change to a
    slower, more endurance friendly type if you do too much volume. This is
    individually variable, but two sessions every day of anything will make you
    slower as will lots of aerobic work. You might still be fast for an enduro,
    but in sprinter terms, you're still slow.

    Going slow makes you slow. If you want to be able to go faster, then going
    at less than maximal speed generally won't do it. If it does, then you
    weren't operating at 100% before. That's OK. Most people can't switch
    everything on. You have to practice it. It takes years to reach your 100%
    level even without any actual physiological improvement. Most sprint events
    require sustained power output at cadences over 160rpm. If you don't
    practice this, you won't get good at it. Most people will spend all their
    bickies just getting up to 160rpm on a decent gear, so to train maximally at
    that level, you have to get up to 160rpm without using up your phosphate
    stores. That's where the motor bike comes in. Use the slipstream to get up
    to max speed or over and then spend your bickies. That way you work
    maximally at maximal speed. You have to train your nervous system to
    coordinate your muscular contractions at that speed.

    Same in the gym. If all you do is slow, heavy. You get STRONG and SLOW. You
    need to do most of your work at race speeds using submaximal loads but at
    high speeds. If you can't do single-leg stuff, then Olympic pulling
    movements are your next best option, but unloaded plyos are more important
    for higher cadences. You don't need to be able to clean or snatch or jerk.
    The pull phase from the floor to full hip and knee extension is where the
    gains come from. What happens after that doesn't matter. You can throw the
    bar out of the window and the gains will be the same. I would only recommend
    this on your last rep as most gym owners get quite irate about their
    equipment being heaved out into the street, as do passing pedestrians. The
    overspeed work will come as you try to get away.

    Use your maximum capacities at the maximum rate and in as specific a way as
    possible to transfer to the bike. I can outlift all our top riders in the
    gym and out-power them on the ergo, but I'm not in the race on the track. I
    can't put my power through the bike into the track. I'm just not technically
    as good as they are. Ryan Bayley may look like a monkey humping a tennis
    ball when he sprints but most of his power is getting onto the track.

    ....

    Weight training for enduros - the same strategies apply but maximal strength
    and power are less critical. All endurance riding, even the bunch sprint at
    the end, is really submaximal. A little bit of gym regularly helps to
    maintain the structural integrity of the body, prevent imbalances and
    prepare you for crashes, but the real gains come on the road. Racing is the
    best training. All our best track enduros race on the road in Europe. They
    come together for camps to touch up their track skills, but all of that was
    learnt as juniors and in domestic track racing on the way up. For strength
    endurance on the bike, ride up hills in the saddle on bigger gears. That was
    the only strength work out team pursuit did for the last three years and
    they won everything there was to win with a bucket load of world records to
    boot. Incidentally, they are also the fastest starters."

  2. #2
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,010
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    I think it's been posted here years ago. But, it's still a good read.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,519
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Since it's now fall and racing season is a long way away, I'm bumping this. It's a good read. I'm getting into the weight room three times a week these days and getting a good dose of deadlifts and squats, but after a little while, I'm going to start incorporating those single leg, ballistic leg presses described above for power. I don't have the time to learn olympic lifting.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  4. #4
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,010
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Since it's now fall and racing season is a long way away, I'm bumping this. It's a good read. I'm getting into the weight room three times a week these days and getting a good dose of deadlifts and squats, but after a little while, I'm going to start incorporating those single leg, ballistic leg presses described above for power. I don't have the time to learn olympic lifting.
    There are many ways to do this. For 2 seasons, all I did was leg press (sub for squat), single leg press (sub for squat), and explosive single leg press (sub for power clean). It worked.

    I asked my friend (she's a doctor of physical therapy) of how high-weight leg press compared to high-weight squatting in terms of risk of injury. She said that I was simply trading the risk of hurting my spinal discs for the risk of hurting my pelvis (I'm sure she said some medical term, but I can't recall).

    So, for me, it was 6 one way, and 1/2 dozen the other way.

    I've heard from 2nd hand account of two Olympic, Elite World Champ sprinters on the same national team, 1 uses leg press and the other uses squat.

    I really like the idea of both the back squat and the dual/single leg presses for different reasons. Back squat for the added core strength and the single leg presses due to the fact that we engage legs individually when cycling.
    Last edited by carleton; 09-22-13 at 01:23 PM.

  5. #5
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,010
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Duh. I just recalled that I did leg press for TWO seasons, not just one. I did back squat 1 season, front squat 1 season, and leg press for 2 seasons.

    If you are going to try the leg presses, a few thoughts:

    Make sure that you go deep. Most don't go deep enough (similarly as those who don't go deep enough with squats).

    Pay attention to your foot position on the rack.

    I forgot my trigonometry, but if I remember correctly: If it's a 45-degree rack then the vertical component of your lift is COS(45)*WEIGHT, or 0.71*WEIGHT. Believe it or not, this formula worked out to approximately what my max back squat was the season before.

    It's difficult to progress in back squat then switch to leg presses. For me, I had to pick one horse and ride it throughout the season.

    Man, I miss this:

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by carleton; 09-22-13 at 01:27 PM.

  6. #6
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,010
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Aussie Anna Meares:


  7. #7
    Senior Member zizou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    70
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The gym i use has a horizontal (or maybe something like 5 degrees) leg press rather than a 45 degree one...does that make a difference?

  8. #8
    Senior Member rgwinn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Salem, OR
    My Bikes
    Trek Madone 4.5
    Posts
    71
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Since it's now fall and racing season is a long way away, I'm bumping this. It's a good read. I'm getting into the weight room three times a week these days and getting a good dose of deadlifts and squats, but after a little while, I'm going to start incorporating those single leg, ballistic leg presses described above for power. I don't have the time to learn olympic lifting.
    Thanks, good reading.

    I started doing heavy gym work 4 months ago, then started back on a bike 4 weeks ago. My Gym work helped me get back on the bike with a reasonable cadence.
    Remember; "You only DIE once, you live every day"

  9. #9
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,010
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by zizou View Post
    The gym i use has a horizontal (or maybe something like 5 degrees) leg press rather than a 45 degree one...does that make a difference?
    Probably not. In which direction does the weight move when in motion? I assume it works on cables? Then the weight would move vertically. But, it doesn't matter.

  10. #10
    JMR
    JMR is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    252
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    "What sprinters did 10 years ago is completely different to what most of
    the top sprinters are doing now. The critical factors that determine success
    or failure have changed. Tactics have changed and the tournament formats
    have changed. Training that would win 10 years ago is generally not as
    successful today, but every dog has his or her day and some old-school
    trainers still come out on top now and again, but it is happening less and
    less."

    This info is (correct me if I am wrong) about 10 years old.

    While I am not say that it is wrong, but certainly a lot has changed in regards to training methods since this... just something to keep in mind before using this as your training bible.

    JMR

  11. #11
    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    1,846
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Aussie Anna Meares:

    And Chris Hoy

    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

  12. #12
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,010
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by JMR View Post
    "What sprinters did 10 years ago is completely different to what most of
    the top sprinters are doing now. The critical factors that determine success
    or failure have changed. Tactics have changed and the tournament formats
    have changed. Training that would win 10 years ago is generally not as
    successful today, but every dog has his or her day and some old-school
    trainers still come out on top now and again, but it is happening less and
    less."

    This info is (correct me if I am wrong) about 10 years old.

    While I am not say that it is wrong, but certainly a lot has changed in regards to training methods since this... just something to keep in mind before using this as your training bible.

    JMR
    Yeah, there are several new insights, such as there not being a need for crazy roadie "base miles" for sprinters. Or the use of weights at all for sprinters. Some train 100% on ergometers and the track.

  13. #13
    Senior Member abstractform20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,889
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    not a track cyclist, but if there was a velodrome closer than 2hrs, id love to do it recreationally.

    out of curiosity, what kind of squats are you guys doing: high bar, low bar, front? what depth are you going to? what sets and reps, and rest times do you use?

    also, why do you guys think that learning olympic lifts takes forever? why stay away from power cleans?

    i have a lot of questions.

    also, shame for not having a picture of hoy squatting...he claims a 227.5kg/501lb squat.

  14. #14
    JMR
    JMR is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    252
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Here is Robert Forstermann squating 260Kg x2...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oV_yDdZYXA

    I would like to know as a comparison, how much Jason Kenny squats... I would imagine it is far less than this, and yet he did a faster f200 at London olympics. Just goes to show that big legs and big squats aren't the only factor.

    JMR

  15. #15
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,010
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by abstractform20 View Post
    not a track cyclist, but if there was a velodrome closer than 2hrs, id love to do it recreationally.

    out of curiosity, what kind of squats are you guys doing: high bar, low bar, front? what depth are you going to? what sets and reps, and rest times do you use?

    also, why do you guys think that learning olympic lifts takes forever? why stay away from power cleans?

    i have a lot of questions.

    also, shame for not having a picture of hoy squatting...he claims a 227.5kg/501lb squat.
    As well as leg press mentioned above, during different seasons, I also did low bar and front squat...ass to grass, 3x5 reps (not counting warmup). I also did power cleans as well as dead lifts. I was generally on the Starting Strength program. Many follow the Starting Strength program then tweak it from there as necessary. It's a solid foundation that coaches from the AUS national team actually reference in their writings.

    http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Stren.../dp/0982522738

    For training for track sprinting, the overhead lifts, the Snatch and the Jerk, are very technical and don't really benefit the lower-body. Remember, track sprinting is a lower-body sport. So, some figure that your time and training would be better spent elsewhere. Upper-body strength is important, but only insofar as to not be so weak that standing starts hurt your back or your legs pull so hard that your fingers can't hold on to the bars. I have seen this happen. I knew a female sprinter that had very, very strong legs but didn't work on her grip strength in the gym (dead lifts, etc...) and during standing starts, her fingers would limit how hard she could push, not her legs. Once her grip strength caught up, she got even faster.

    Remember, when track sprinters aren't in the gym, they are on a bike somewhere. So, standard powerlifting programs have to be cut back some to allow for that.

  16. #16
    JMR
    JMR is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    252
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yeah, that is why you shouldn't use straps when doing deadlift... I don't even like doing alternate grips unless it is on the last set or so. You've got to build up that grip strength.

    JMR

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    My Bikes
    Marin Stelvio, Pogliaghi road, Panasonic track, Dolan DF3
    Posts
    670
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Not Kenny, but I recall reading an interview with Ross Edgar back when he was man one for the GBR team sprint and he said he was working out with 130 kg, which is not a huge amount. Of course, he was one of their smaller guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMR View Post
    Here is Robert Forstermann squating 260Kg x2...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oV_yDdZYXA

    I would like to know as a comparison, how much Jason Kenny squats... I would imagine it is far less than this, and yet he did a faster f200 at London olympics. Just goes to show that big legs and big squats aren't the only factor.

    JMR

  18. #18
    Senior Member abstractform20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,889
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    As well as leg press mentioned above, during different seasons, I also did low bar and front squat...ass to grass, 3x5 reps (not counting warmup). I also did power cleans as well as dead lifts. I was generally on the Starting Strength program. Many follow the Starting Strength program then tweak it from there as necessary. It's a solid foundation that coaches from the AUS national team actually reference in their writings.

    *i trimmed your response down 9/24*

    For training for track sprinting, the overhead lifts, the Snatch and the Jerk, are very technical and don't really benefit the lower-body. Remember, track sprinting is a lower-body sport. So, some figure that your time and training would be better spent elsewhere. Upper-body strength is important, but only insofar as to not be so weak that standing starts hurt your back or your legs pull so hard that your fingers can't hold on to the bars. I have seen this happen. I knew a female sprinter that had very, very strong legs but didn't work on her grip strength in the gym (dead lifts, etc...) and during standing starts, her fingers would limit how hard she could push, not her legs. Once her grip strength caught up, she got even faster.

    Remember, when track sprinters aren't in the gym, they are on a bike somewhere. So, standard powerlifting programs have to be cut back some to allow for that.

    can you link where the AUS coaches have articles about SS and Rippetoe?

    did your programming pass the novice stage (basically unable to add weight to the bar every workout, and require a weekly increase)?

    i assume that your focused on driving the squat and deadlift in order to drive the power clean...

    i have a lot of questions, sorry.

  19. #19
    Senior Member abstractform20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,889
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    i would assume that for events lasting typically under 1 minutes, that reps (after the novice stage) would never be more than 5, and that longer events would involve tapering down intensity and focusing on volume. anyone train using 15 reps for squats?

  20. #20
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,519
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by abstractform20 View Post
    i would assume that for events lasting typically under 1 minutes, that reps (after the novice stage) would never be more than 5, and that longer events would involve tapering down intensity and focusing on volume. anyone train using 15 reps for squats?
    Not sure what the experts say, but my thought is I can train for reps on my bike. We have a coach here who doesn't have his riders do weights, rather, he trains strength using seated starts and trains reps doing this nasty workout where the riders ride the rail or the stayer's line for an hour in a 115" gear. They are trying to go for specificity, though I've heard the knees take a beating doing lots of seated starts. Seems to work though. His riders are fast.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  21. #21
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,010
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by abstractform20 View Post
    can you link where the AUS coaches have articles about SS and Rippetoe?

    did your programming pass the novice stage (basically unable to add weight to the bar every workout, and require a weekly increase)?

    i assume that your focused on driving the squat and deadlift in order to drive the power clean...

    i have a lot of questions, sorry.
    Yes, I moved pass the novice stage and into the next stage following this book: Practical Programming for Strength Training

    This is the next book in the series after Starting Strength.
    http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Prog...0095205&sr=1-2

    I lifted heavy for 4 years straight with minor breaks here and there. My last season was the first one where I did all of my strength training on the bike...and that's when I started I hit over 2,100W regularly. Crazy how that works.

    Quote Originally Posted by abstractform20 View Post
    i assume that your focused on driving the squat and deadlift in order to drive the power clean...
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by abstractform20 View Post
    can you link where the AUS coaches have articles about SS and Rippetoe?
    The site's credits:

    By Carl Brewer with contributions from
    Sean Eadie
    Clay Worthington
    Craig Colduck
    Emily Wood
    Dr Dan Dwyer
    Prof Lon kilgore
    Mark Rippetoe

    http://upupup.aboc.com.au/the-book/0...gym/philosophy

    They write:


    Each of these exercises elicits a significant strength adaptation but does require competent coaching to learn safely. The squat is the cornerstone of any good strength program and we refer you to "Starting Strength, 3rd Ed" by Mark Rippetoe as the most through and important book on this subject.

    If you're going to train for strength, that book needs to be in your library.
    Quote Originally Posted by abstractform20 View Post
    i would assume that for events lasting typically under 1 minutes, that reps (after the novice stage) would never be more than 5, and that longer events would involve tapering down intensity and focusing on volume. anyone train using 15 reps for squats?
    As Brian mentions, anything over 5 reps is not strength but strength-endurance. That generally happens on the bike for like a standing half-lap effort.
    Last edited by carleton; 09-25-13 at 01:55 AM.

  22. #22
    Senior Member abstractform20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,889
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post

    I lifted heavy for 4 years straight with minor breaks here and there. My last season was the first one where I did all of my strength training on the bike...and that's when I started I hit over 2,100W regularly. Crazy how that works.

    .
    thanks for answering my questions. i really appreciate it.

    Are you claiming or implying that the improved time was a result of abandoning strength training, or the product of years of increasing strength (capacity for power output) through weighted movements in conjunction with cycling specific programming?

    was your programming self-produced, or did you have a strength coach make recommendations?

  23. #23
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,010
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by abstractform20 View Post
    thanks for answering my questions. i really appreciate it.

    Are you claiming or implying that the improved time was a result of abandoning strength training, or the product of years of increasing strength (capacity for power output) through weighted movements in conjunction with cycling specific programming?

    was your programming self-produced, or did you have a strength coach make recommendations?
    No. All 4 years of strength training contributed to the 2,100W in the 5th year.

    There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats

    I can cite anecdotal evidence to assert any position. For example, you've seen the German's and British lift. The fastest guy in the US right now, Kevin Mansker, doesn't lift (to my knowledge...Kev correct me if I'm wrong). He does his work on ergos, track bikes, and road bikes. Kevin posts here on occasion. I trained with his coach, Kirk Whiteman, last year and gained LOTS of insight into that style. Kirk is a great coach and racer.

    Work pressure abruptly truncated my season (and made an all-around grouch).

    My programming was a mix:
    Season 1: Coached by Stephen Hill (2x US Elite kilo champ, multiple masters world champ, coached others to similar results)
    Season 2: Coached by Jennie Reed (3x Olympian in sprint and endurance events, Silver medal in London, WR holder, World Champ, wonder woman, coached elite world-level athletes)
    Season 3: Self-coached
    Season 4: Self-coached
    Season 5: Coached by Kirk Whiteman (Elite racer, masters world champ, coached elite world-level athletes)

    Plus I'm an information sponge and nerd in general.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    260
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Yeah, there are several new insights, such as there not being a need for crazy roadie "base miles" for sprinters. Or the use of weights at all for sprinters. Some train 100% on ergometers and the track.
    Can you give a little more info on what you know about limited weight training for sprinters? I have the unfortunate situation of wanting to be a better track sprinter but my Spinal Orthopedist is telling me to take it very easy with the weights in general.

  25. #25
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    11,010
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ochizon View Post
    Can you give a little more info on what you know about limited weight training for sprinters? I have the unfortunate situation of wanting to be a better track sprinter but my Spinal Orthopedist is telling me to take it very easy with the weights in general.
    The long and the short of it is:

    - Track sprinting requires maximal efforts. Most (if not all) of the efforts that roadies do is sub-maximal, even when they are giving it their all at the sprint finish of a crit. You have to learn to tap into that max.
    - You will have to do some maximal training somewhere, either in the gym, plyometrics, or a spin bike or trainer where you can set the resistance very very high.
    - If you can't squat because if your spine, maybe you can do plyometrics, leg press or use a high-end, high-ressitance spin bike like the CycleOps Indoor Cycle or the Wattbike, or do similar effort on the track or a secluded rode using your track bike.

    http://www.cycleops.com/products/indoor-cycles.html
    http://wattbike.com/uk/

    Whatever it takes to be able to do a good standing start and rolling jump (maximal efforts) like this:



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •