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-   -   "Dear Carleton" (http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/743918-dear-carleton.html)

Syscrush 08-12-12 10:01 PM

Is it typical to experience DOMS after a cycling workout, though? DOMS is typically associated with eccentric/negative contractions, and you do basically none of that on a road bike, and I would assume that you do as little as possible on a track bike...

Mumonkan 08-17-12 08:52 AM

dear carleton:
just saw this, thought you might enjoy

http://manteresting.com/site_media/m...hn_normal.jpeg

carleton 08-17-12 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syscrush (Post 14598194)
Is it typical to experience DOMS after a cycling workout, though? DOMS is typically associated with eccentric/negative contractions, and you do basically none of that on a road bike, and I would assume that you do as little as possible on a track bike...

I don't think it's typical.

Stopping on a track bike creates an eccentric contraction. This is why people who first start to skid have issues with their hip flexor muscles.

8bits 08-20-12 09:24 PM

Carleton,

Cervelo gives 2 geometries based on seat tube angle, do you understand whats that about?
http://www.cervelo.com/en_us/bikes/2011/T1/geometry/

Do they mean that there's 2 types of T1's based on seat tube geometry?

Scrodzilla 08-20-12 09:32 PM

The seat can be placed in two different positions (as shown in the diagram), resulting in differences in geo.

/notcarleton

8bits 08-20-12 09:36 PM

Damn I'll email Cervelo cause seeing the pics it seems like something the T3 would have, the T1 seems to have a "normal" aero seatpost

MuppetMower 08-20-12 09:36 PM

You can flip the seatpost around to change the setback I believe. Its like that for several of their track and tt bikes.
Edit: there are not two different frames.

carleton 08-21-12 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8bits (Post 14631529)
Carleton,

Cervelo gives 2 geometries based on seat tube angle, do you understand whats that about?
http://www.cervelo.com/en_us/bikes/2011/T1/geometry/

Do they mean that there's 2 types of T1's based on seat tube geometry?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrodzilla (Post 14631567)
The seat can be placed in two different positions (as shown in the diagram), resulting in differences in geo.

/notcarleton

+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8bits (Post 14631589)
Damn I'll email Cervelo cause seeing the pics it seems like something the T3 would have, the T1 seems to have a "normal" aero seatpost

The T1 has an optional adjustable seatpost like the T3: http://forums.cervelo.com/forums/p/9796/67954.aspx

http://www.excelsports.com/image/Cer...20Position.jpg

Apparently this guy works at Cervelo and commented in the thread:

Quote:

I am from Cervélo AND I am a T1 owner. The stock post is the single position post which gives you the 73 degree effective seat tube angle. The second position can be attained with the post that Hutch has pointed out or the two position post from your P2K. It can also be ordered through an authorized Cervélo retailer. We don't spec this post as it will put many saddles in an illegal position for UCI racing.

Thanks,

David Byer, Cervélo
So, the forward position is obtained via the optional seatpost. The stock T1 comes with the regular, non-adjustable seatpost which puts the seat tube at 73 degrees...which is normal for a track bike.

carleton 08-21-12 07:40 AM

For what it's worth, using the forward position at 76 degrees doesn't necessarily make it illegal. My custom Tiemeyer has a 76 degree seat tube angle and it's legal with normal saddles. But, my bike is a 58cm. It may be illegal with smaller sizes like 55cm.

8bits 08-21-12 07:42 AM

you sir, is awesome!

btw that kind of seatpost tech is interesting, do other brands do this "gimmick"? Does it really make a difference for different type of races?

carleton 08-21-12 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8bits (Post 14632660)
you sir, is awesome!

btw that kind of seatpost tech is interesting, do other brands do this "gimmick"? Does it really make a difference for different type of races?

It's not really a gimmick. Many Time Trial riders do like super-forward seatposts. Cervelo is a company that serves that community, even with their mid-level track frame (as well as their high-end frame). The Felt TK1 (also a track TT bike) used to come with 2 seatposts originally, one back and one forward. Then it came with with a topper made by Ritchey that sat on rails so you can slide the clamp forward/backward as well as moving the saddle on it's rails for the same effect.

http://www.racycles.com/assets/produ...Frameset_3.jpg

Now they use a non forward/backward adjustable 3T topper.

Most bike companies that make track bikes don't bother. They just make standard seatposts and normal angles to appeal to the masses. It's cool that Cervelo does this on a mid-level frame.

JesusBananas 08-21-12 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 14632652)
For what it's worth, using the forward position at 76 degrees doesn't necessarily make it illegal. My custom Tiemeyer has a 76 degree seat tube angle and it's legal with normal saddles. But, my bike is a 58cm. It may be illegal with smaller sizes like 55cm.

Why is seat tube angle restricted? Does it affect power output? Aeroness? Safety?

I found this thing, but it didn't really explain the rationale behind the seat tube angle rule: http://www.usacycling.org/forms/uci/...egulations.pdf

Nagrom_ 08-21-12 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusBananas (Post 14636559)
Why is seat tube angle restricted? Does it affect power output? Aeroness? Safety?

I found this thing, but it didn't really explain the rationale behind the seat tube angle rule: http://www.usacycling.org/forms/uci/...egulations.pdf

I don't believe there is a seat post angle regulation, but rather a saddle setback regulation. Having steeper than usual angles causes it to be impossible to have a saddle behind the bottom bracket, therefore being illegal.

/notcarleton.

carleton 08-22-12 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nagrom_ (Post 14636565)
I don't believe there is a seat post angle regulation, but rather a saddle setback regulation. Having steeper than usual angles causes it to be impossible to have a saddle behind the bottom bracket, therefore being illegal.

/notcarleton.

Exactly.

For most track events, the saddle must be 5cm or more behind a vertical line from the center of the BB*. So, an aggressive seat tube angle (really forward) may push the saddle into that 5cm violation area.

*There are exceptions to this rule. Generally for shorter racers. But, you have to get a pass called an anthropomorphic exemption or exception (I can't recall the exact term).

8bits 08-22-12 07:10 AM

Did this rule really was invented out of spite for Graeme Obree? I remember from this scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...8jUdt0#t=4190s

or does it have a theory behind it?

carleton 08-22-12 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8bits (Post 14637282)
Did this rule really was invented out of spite for Graeme Obree? I remember from this scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...8jUdt0#t=4190s

or does it have a theory behind it?

I'm not familiar with the rationale. I don't think anyone knows why.

This is just as arbitrary as the "bikes must be under 15lbs" rule. Years ago when people were making super light bikes, the UCI figured that to keep them from being too flimsy and therefore unsafe, they would require that they be 15lbs. So, if you are 230lbs or 130lbs, your bike cannot weigh less than 15lbs.

Nagrom_ 08-22-12 10:58 AM

From what I've heard, the saddle setback regulation has to do with the amount of force you can generate. Something about being in front of the bottom bracket, or within 5cm gives you an unfair advantage. I don't know the specifics but it makes some sense to me at least.

/notcarletonagain

hairnet 08-22-12 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 14637613)
So, if you are 230lbs or 130lbs, your bike cannot weigh less than 15lbs.

A woman was at the co-op last night with a 43cm Pinarello ROKH w/ Force that weighed in at 20lbs. crazy. Where is all that weight coming from when my generic AL frame with old 105 was around 22/23lbs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nagrom_ (Post 14638347)
From what I've heard, the saddle setback regulation has to do with the amount of force you can generate. Something about being in front of the bottom bracket, or within 5cm gives you an unfair advantage. I don't know the specifics but it makes some sense to me at least.

This is why racer sit on the nose of the saddle during TTs. I think high end triathalon bikes go all out with the steep seat tube angles since they arent as regulated.

mjf595 08-22-12 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8bits (Post 14637282)
Did this rule really was invented out of spite for Graeme Obree? I remember from this scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...8jUdt0#t=4190s

or does it have a theory behind it?

Going to have to watch that later!

But from the few minutes I watched so far, all I get from it is "We hate poor people"

TheRealFaux 09-05-12 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UCIBicycleRegulations
The lowest part of the bars must also be higher than the top of the wheels.

Does this include or exclude the tire? Is the tire included as part of the wheel?

Nagrom_ 09-05-12 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealFaux (Post 14696700)
Does this include or exclude the tire? Is the tire included as part of the wheel?

It includes the tire.

/notmrbanks

Kayce 09-05-12 09:52 PM

The bike is weighed completly built, just as it will be raced. I have heard stories of people having to tape fishing weights to the inside of their seatposts to get their bike weighed right.

Sit around the track with an experienced rider and you will hear some great cheat to win stories.

8bits 09-11-12 12:24 PM

Carleton,

Have you tried the track specific Speedplay? If so can you give your insight of how do they compare to something like the shimano spd-sl line (I know that you've tried some of these shimanos).

carleton 09-11-12 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8bits (Post 14717674)
Carleton,

Have you tried the track specific Speedplay? If so can you give your insight of how do they compare to something like the shimano spd-sl line (I know that you've tried some of these shimanos).

Yeah, I tried them back in 2009. They use the same cleat as the standard Zero. The difference is that the ramp that ejects the C-clip in the cleat off of the pedal is steeper, so it take mabe 1/3 more force to unclip.

I've found that the tension on SPD-SL pedals can be turned up much higher than the Speedplay Track Specials.

I rode/raced Speedplay Track Specials in 2009. In 2010 I switched to Shimano SPD-SL and never looked back. I even demo-ed some LOOK KEO 2 Max pedals and the max release tension of the SPD-SLs is much higher.

BUT, to put things into perspective, I'm a big guy with big legs. Release tension is relative to the rider's size. What is normal for me is hard for lighter riders. For example, I once tuned up the bike of a 130lb female friend, and in doing so I (incorrectly) determined that her pedal release tension was too low. So, I tightened it to what felt comfortable for me. I dropped off the bike and she calls me later saying that the pedals were ridiculously tight.

carleton 09-11-12 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kayce (Post 14696826)
The bike is weighed completly built, just as it will be raced. I have heard stories of people having to tape fishing weights to the inside of their seatposts to get their bike weighed right.

Sit around the track with an experienced rider and you will hear some great cheat to win stories.

Yes.

Even though this is a rule for any UCI or USA Cycling event, it's rarely enforced outside of National or International level events. I've raced a few National events.

Basically, 15-30 minutes before each event, the rider is required to bring his/her bike to Bike Check. There an official measures the dimensions and checks the weight to make sure that it is legal. Then the bike is quarantined until the race starts and you are marked off the list as having been checked. The bike is put on a bike rack where you can't go fiddle with it...unless you bring it back through Bike Check again.

I've heard similar stories of bikes not being 15 lbs and having large allen wrenches taped to the tubing to make weight. I've even heard of one athlete installing SRM Power Meter cranks (which are heavier than normal cranks) but not using the computer just to make the bike weigh enough. This usually only happens with the x-small bikes (48-52cm) for the ladies.

It's an antiquated rule. Basically, in the 90s people where going crazing making their bikes lighter. They were drilling and shaving everything making things flimsy and dangerous. So, the only way the UCI could "control" this was to make a minimum weight requirement so that there would be no incentive to do this. Now that it's 20 years later and materials are so much more advanced, the old rule is still in place. Carbon today is MUCH stronger than Carbon from 20 years ago. The technology has evolved. The rule should evolve, too.


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