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Thread: Training Wheels

  1. #1
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    Training Wheels

    Given the choice would you rather ride clinchers or tubulars for training on the rollers/track?

    I was thinking about building up some Velocity Deep V with some kind of hub (still hub shopping, open to cheap suggestions too).
    Nothing should come between you and your chamois -- lawkd

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    I think the answer is it depends on a lot of things. Me personally I like clinchers to train on, I also use them for club racing. YMMV

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kindablue View Post
    Given the choice would you rather ride clinchers or tubulars for training on the rollers/track?

    I was thinking about building up some Velocity Deep V with some kind of hub (still hub shopping, open to cheap suggestions too).
    After having built a set of deep V training wheels I can say that it doesn't make much sense to build them when you can buy them for cheap and they are just as nice.

    In this video (in the opening scene), you can see that Shane Perkins rides what appear to be Velocity Deep V rims and hubs. Not sure if they are clincher or not:



    There are LOTS of pre-built quality clincher wheelsets out there for around $200-300. So, if you decide on clincher, I'd suggest buying pre-built. Mavic Ellipse are popular, but cost more. A nice used set goes for around $300-350. These can double as race wheels, too...or backup race wheels.

    Here is the world sprint champion Gregory Bauge training on Mavic Ellipse:
    Mavic Io front and Ellipse Rear


    Ellipse front and a what looks like a 36 spoke Dura Ace hubbed rear (he's a strong guy, haha)




    Tubular or clincher is another debate.

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    Italian Stallion mcafiero's Avatar
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    I've got Mavic Ellipse and I both train and race on them currently. Clinchers.

    I'm actually about to start shopping for a set of race wheels and will probably keep the clinchers. I have seen too many riders go down on tubulars, including my coach who recently had one roll off.

    That said, I plan on getting these tires: http://www.conti-online.com/generato...rsonic_en.html in 700x20c
    "Go out hard. When it hurts... speed up"
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    Italian Stallion mcafiero's Avatar
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    And yes... I love my Mavic Ellipse wheels...
    "Go out hard. When it hurts... speed up"
    I have a grande hairy chest and I am of Italian descent.
    2010 Cannondale Supersix
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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcafiero View Post
    I've got Mavic Ellipse and I both train and race on them currently. Clinchers.

    I'm actually about to start shopping for a set of race wheels and will probably keep the clinchers. I have seen too many riders go down on tubulars, including my coach who recently had one roll off.

    That said, I plan on getting these tires: http://www.conti-online.com/generato...rsonic_en.html in 700x20c
    As far as equipment goes, I'd hold off on buying race wheels until you have:
    - Chainrings 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, & 51
    - Cogs 13, 14, 15, 16, & 17
    - Cog and lockring tools
    - Bike maintenance tools
    - Skinsuits
    - Aero booties
    - Aero helmet
    - Professional bike fit
    - Annual track pass

    Those will in total cost less than race wheels and each individually will make you faster than race wheels Seriously.

    Race wheels (especially the rear disc) provide the least bang for the buck in terms of performance. Plus you'll only use them on rare occaisions. You especially shouldn't use them in beginner races when:
    1) You don't have the best bike handling skills and are surrounded by others who are the same.
    2) Beginner races are won and lost by whole seconds. There may be 10 seconds between the 1st and 3rd place finishers in a race. Aero wheels only buy you 1/10ths of seconds. Not worth it.
    3) You'll be the only racer out there with race wheels

    And don't get 20c Supersonics. Get the 23. 20 is too small.

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    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    As far as equipment goes, I'd hold off on buying race wheels until you have:
    - Chainrings 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, & 51
    - Cogs 13, 14, 15, 16, & 17
    Unless he's mostly a sprinter I'd drop the 45 and 46 and add a 52, and make the 13 and 17 low priorities. Other than that, I pretty much agree. Booties and aero helmet are biggest bang for the buck. You also didn't list aerobars and stem-- I haven't been keeping track, does he already have those?
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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
    Unless he's mostly a sprinter I'd drop the 45 and 46 and add a 52, and make the 13 and 17 low priorities. Other than that, I pretty much agree. Booties and aero helmet are biggest bang for the buck. You also didn't list aerobars and stem-- I haven't been keeping track, does he already have those?
    Good points about the aerobar setup and gearing.

    To the others in this thread:

    Race wheels, from a distance, seem to be a way to buy speed. "All the fast guys have race wheels. Therefore race wheels must have made them fast.". That can't be further from the truth.

    The truth is that the faster you get, you are matched with racers of much more closely matched ability. That's when races are won and lost by a wheel or less. Then and only then will the "fine tuning" of race wheels might be a factor.

    Give a new racer a $10k bike and it won't make the slightest bit of difference for him/her in how well (or not) they do in beginner races.

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    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Race wheels, from a distance, seem to be a way to buy speed. "All the fast guys have race wheels. Therefore race wheels must have made them fast.". That can't be further from the truth.

    The truth is that the faster you get, you are matched with racers of much more closely matched ability. That's when races are won and lost by a wheel or less. Then and only then will the "fine tuning" of race wheels might be a factor.

    Give a new racer a $10k bike and it won't make the slightest bit of difference for him/her in how well (or not) they do in beginner races.
    pretty much dead on.

    Learning to race well is *way* more important than having the best equipment or even being the fastest rider out there. Races are won and lost by being in the right or wrong place at the right time, and learning how to be where you need to be at any given time to be in front at the line when there are points to be had is more important than your equipment.
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    Italian Stallion mcafiero's Avatar
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    "- Skinsuits
    - Aero booties
    - Aero helmet"

    Those are the only items in that list that I don't have. That said, I only said I will be "shopping" for race wheels. As you know, Carleton, there's a good amount of time that goes between shopping and buying! ha!

    I've got to buy an SRM immediately for $1800 so the race wheels most likely won't be purchased until maybe the middle of next racing season.

    Why is 20c too small?
    "Go out hard. When it hurts... speed up"
    I have a grande hairy chest and I am of Italian descent.
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  11. #11
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcafiero View Post
    "- Skinsuits
    - Aero booties
    - Aero helmet"

    Those are the only items in that list that I don't have. That said, I only said I will be "shopping" for race wheels. As you know, Carleton, there's a good amount of time that goes between shopping and buying! ha!

    I've got to buy an SRM immediately for $1800 so the race wheels most likely won't be purchased until maybe the middle of next racing season.

    Why is 20c too small?
    I believe that the Conti Supersonic was made as a road TT clincher race tire. Which is why it's light, thin, and able to be pump to abnormally high pressures for a clincher tire.

    Remember, on the track, you'll spend a significant amount of time on the side of your tire. Depending on the width of your rim bed, and I don't know of any clincher rims with a thin rim bed, the 20c tire won't give you much bulge on the side to ride slowly on. So, if you are riding only TTs, that might be OK, but if you are riding slowly as in warmups or match sprinting, 20c would be cutting it close. Between the two options available, 23 and 20, 23 is the better option. I have 23c supersonics on my Ellipse. I rode a 20c for one week in 2009 when I had tire clearance issues with a Planet X fork and hated it. I found a 21 or 22c tire that worked and threw the 20c away.

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    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    I've ridden 23 mm supersonics in madison practice (read that as: riding slow on the banking on relief) at Home Depot Center without any problems, but I think I'd stay away from the 20's except strictly as a TT tire on a narrow rim.
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  13. #13
    Italian Stallion mcafiero's Avatar
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    good tips, thanks
    "Go out hard. When it hurts... speed up"
    I have a grande hairy chest and I am of Italian descent.
    2010 Cannondale Supersix
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    Senior Member chas58's Avatar
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    So, you are saying a 20mm tire would be fine for a tubular, but not for a clincher because of the thickness of the rim bed?

    Plenty of people ride 20mm tubulars. General physics state that the size of the contact patch is dependant on the weight and tire pressure (not on size of the tire or construction of the tire - those affect shape, but not size).

    Just wondering why a 20mm clincher woudld be different...

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chas58 View Post
    So, you are saying a 20mm tire would be fine for a tubular, but not for a clincher because of the thickness of the rim bed?

    Plenty of people ride 20mm tubulars. General physics state that the size of the contact patch is dependant on the weight and tire pressure (not on size of the tire or construction of the tire - those affect shape, but not size).

    Just wondering why a 20mm clincher woudld be different...
    "One test result is worth one thousand expert opinions."
    --Wernher von Braun

    Clinchers sit taller on the rim as tubulars sit wider. I run a 20c tubular tire on my front race wheel. I would not run a 20c clincher on the front of my clincher training wheel. Yes, technically it will work, but as I mentioned earlier in the thread, it was not confidence inspiring when I rode one on the front.

    Also, remember that at slower speeds on the track you ride on the side of the tire, not the center.

    Of the two options, 20c and 23c, 23c is the better choice.
    Last edited by carleton; 11-07-11 at 11:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
    Unless he's mostly a sprinter I'd drop the 45 and 46 and add a 52, and make the 13 and 17 low priorities. Other than that, I pretty much agree. Booties and aero helmet are biggest bang for the buck. You also didn't list aerobars and stem-- I haven't been keeping track, does he already have those?
    If you're running road gearing, then yeah, a 53x16 feels pretty good. (lots like a 49x15 actually) otherwise, all you really need are 48, 49, and 50t chainrings with a selection of cogs for the back. You wanna go faster? Spin faster. Easy peasy!

    Note: I did all mass-start races and not pursuits.

    Sigh. I miss racing Madisons.

    Someone build a track round DC wouldya?!

    AFA training wheels: I trained on GL330s and raced on 404s. Never had an issue with tires rolling.

    M

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    Senior Member BrainInAJar's Avatar
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    I ride 20c clinchers slowly on the boards at Burnaby and haven't ever felt uncertain of my grip/handling. It might be different for cement tracks (the only cement track I've ridden is Glenmore)

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gummee View Post
    If you're running road gearing, then yeah, a 53x16 feels pretty good. (lots like a 49x15 actually) otherwise, all you really need are 48, 49, and 50t chainrings with a selection of cogs for the back. You wanna go faster? Spin faster. Easy peasy!

    Note: I did all mass-start races and not pursuits.

    Sigh. I miss racing Madisons.

    Someone build a track round DC wouldya?!

    AFA training wheels: I trained on GL330s and raced on 404s. Never had an issue with tires rolling.

    M
    Yes, 48, 49, & 50 will work for most people. But, when one starts with specialized training and dialing in particular gears for time trials (Flying 200M, 500M, 1K, 2K, 3K, or 4K), having the option to change gears by 1 gear inch is essential to finding the optimal gear for the event, training level, and atmospheric conditions.

    There are days when an 48/14 feels too small and a 49/14 feels too big and a 45/13 feels perfect.

    There are several stories about guys changing their gearing as the temperature changes as the day progresses.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Yes, 48, 49, & 50 will work for most people. But, when one starts with specialized training and dialing in particular gears for time trials (Flying 200M, 500M, 1K, 2K, 3K, or 4K), having the option to change gears by 1 gear inch is essential to finding the optimal gear for the event, training level, and atmospheric conditions.

    There are days when an 48/14 feels too small and a 49/14 feels too big and a 45/13 feels perfect.

    There are several stories about guys changing their gearing as the temperature changes as the day progresses.
    I can understand that. I've felt the same way when my legs just didn't have it. Mostly tho, I kept it in the 49x15 and just rode thru it. Again, I'm a mass-start kind of guy and didn't get into kilos, etc.

    Mmmmmm Madisons! Mass chaos on wheels! Yay!

    What I want to learn is how guys like Shaun Wallace had that extra gear in there that I don't have. He must've had Cancellara's electric motor before Cancellara got it!

    M

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