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  1. #301
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post

    I never really understood why masters races were always 500 instead of 1000. Its no less difficult
    Wait! WHAT?!

  2. #302
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    Umm...

  3. #303
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Haha, I quite dislike the "harder than", "better than", "best of all-time" discussions. But in this case, I think my favorite graph provides some insight on why *I* think kilo is objectively more difficult than the 500:




    Anaerobic and aerobic Energy Pathways

  4. #304
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    ^^^
    So, pretty much the kilo ends just as all your anaerobic energy systems are exhausted and right before your aerobic system is up and running full gas. No wonder...
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    Is Master's world cup the same way?
    Yes. And is why I don't race this event anymore... Already down to 750m as MMAS3 (40-44) and will drop to 500m once I hit MMAS5.
    http://climbinglama.blogspot.com.au

  6. #306
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    sorry I should rephrase. I meant more that the 500 is still VERY HARD. You still have the standing start and you have almost the same top speed.

    And for me I am more competitive at a kilo than 500 so would prefer it (although to be fair I have a few years before masters here).

  7. #307
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Haha, I quite dislike the "harder than", "better than", "best of all-time" discussions. But in this case, I think my favorite graph provides some insight on why *I* think kilo is objectively more difficult than the 500:




    Anaerobic and aerobic Energy Pathways
    When I was a junior, a million years ago, I tried out for running track and field. I was very good at the 100 meters but not as fast as a couple of the other kids. I was not great at a couple of miles so the coach had me try the 400 meters. I killed it. Some things never change. My sweet spot is still 1 minute power and if I would have done track earlier than 2008, I might have been a pretty good kilo racer. Now my best event is the 500.

    And Vance, you can always race the 2k pursuit like a kilo and positive split it. IMO, I am not sure that your time would be any slower and in fact it may be better but it would certainly hurt more.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  8. #308
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Another strong turnout for the second of four Friday Night Races sponsored by FFWD Wheels. Full field in cat 4/5, about 15 in 1/2/3, and two big junior fields. Small women's field, but I think they will get more next time. My field did a 4k Tempo, a 10k Points, and Super Scratch (MnO until six left, then 3k scratch). I love racing with people faster than me, as I find it is the best training. But it is a little odd in that it both requires you to be extremely precise with your strategy/tactics, while at the same time severely limiting your strategic options.

    Random photo from the night (not me):
    Photo credit: Steve Cohen

  9. #309
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    ***** stole my look

  10. #310
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Nice turnout Vance.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  11. #311
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    When I was a junior, a million years ago, I tried out for running track and field. I was very good at the 100 meters but not as fast as a couple of the other kids. I was not great at a couple of miles so the coach had me try the 400 meters. I killed it. Some things never change. My sweet spot is still 1 minute power and if I would have done track earlier than 2008, I might have been a pretty good kilo racer. Now my best event is the 500.

    And Vance, you can always race the 2k pursuit like a kilo and positive split it. IMO, I am not sure that your time would be any slower and in fact it may be better but it would certainly hurt more.
    I've always believed that high school and/or college sports to be a good way to determine if an athlete has slow, fast, or mixed - twitch muscle fibers. High School track and field especially. The kids are generally all even in terms of training and equipment (if any equipment is necessary), so the only significant factor is muscle fiber type (AKA: "talent").

    If you were good at short, middle, long, or all distance track and field events in high school, you'll likely be good at short, middle, long or all distance track cycling events.

  12. #312
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    The first weekend event at Alpenrose was this weekend ... with low temps and the threat of rain keeping away the typically large early season fields. So with groups between 5 and 10 riders we all set out to work out the early kinks.

    I raced the cat 1/2 and the Masters 40+ groups. First up was the Cat 1/2 with a point a lap ... no make that a last second 20 lap scratch race, thanks Zach. With all the local fast guys in attendance it was anything but leisurely. Lap after lap of 1/2 lap pulls and 30 mph speeds saw my legs zapped pretty quick. Take away a proper warm up because of the rain threat and temps and add the fact that I had another set of races and when the pace kicked up with some attacks at 5 to go I was gapped off taking mr Ratliff with me. I looked back and he seemed no more interested in closing the gap than I was so there went the race and I dropped out a lap later to save for the first Masters race. The race end with a clean finish for Zach Kovalcik our local fast guy, but upcoming junior Kent Ross kept it close and edged out two other fast guys for 2nd place.

    First up for the masters was a 12 lap scratch ... right in the middle of sprinter/enduro length. Pace was much slower and less even than the 1/2 race, but still fairly fast for the first race of the year with a small field. I had my teammate Stephen McDade in this race and things seemed in hand early on. After mostly playing nice and keeping the pace moderate for the first 10 laps we started to position for the final sprint my teammate attacked with just over 2 laps to go, which under normal circumstances would have been the best thing for me. I was positioned on coach aber's wheel, who was going to have to chase things down and lead me to victory or let my teammate win. My plans were spoiled twice over, first being an out of town racer (Daryl) who chased after my teammate, giving coach a great leadout, second even with my position on coaches wheel, I did not have the legs to come around. So instead of me getting the armchair victory it was Abers first over the line. I was left in his wake when he kicked it into full speed and decided my teammate more than earned his 3rd place and stayed in 4th as we came over the line with legs that did not seem to be going well and no chance of catching first or second.

    Rain continued to threaten to fall at any second but all the groups made a second race before the event was called. Next up for the Cat 1/2 guys was a miss-n-out ... with 10 riders ... this should be fun. I immediately went to the front along with Daryl who was racing both races just like me - and we both new the front was the only place to be in a small miss-n-out field. I jumped around him for the pole position one lap before they pulled the first rider and held that for 2 laps and then positioned myself behind Zach figuring he would stay out of trouble. Well he did, but being behind him only lasted two more riders and ended my miss-n-out just as you should not on the bottom and not having the room to expend any energy as zach pushed his way between riders on the line and I was stuck in last with everyone else up high. Sigh, another win for Zach, and that was it for the 1/2 field. Nice to see that Kent is getting stronger, anytime a junior can be up there with the top guys is a good thing.

    Final race for the masters was a 25 lap points race ... a little long for the typical sprinter, but short enough to keep everyone in it. It seemed that the miss-n-out not only woke up my legs, but also my spirits as I was up in the points during the first two sprints and leading the race early, which is not something I am known for. Feeling that maybe the first race was just too short and that maybe this was my race a few attacks picked up the pace and reminded me it was not my day as Daryl and my teammate were able to make a small break while I was gapped. Everyone kept falling off the lead two riders with me typically in 3rd in no mans land, then I finally broke the string, both because my legs were not able to keep on their wheel while helping, and I had a teammate up there, so I figured best to let him battle it out for the win while I kept the rest in check. I was thinking my teammate might have the win in hand as they were close going into the final sprint, but Daryl edged him out on the final, taking both the race and the omnium. For me it was just a pride thing left so I attacked my group with less than 2 laps to go as Abers attacked at 3 to go. Although I got a very good gap on the rest and was closing in on the front two, I knew I would not catch them and just had to hold off whoever was catching me. But it was not to be as a bike throw on the line and there was Abers, a pure sprinter if there ever was one, somehow, after 25 laps pulling me back on a final race attack and taking it by a couple of inches. Not sure he has ever beat me in that manner before, but scoring 3rd in the points race ahead of him was not enough to make up for the dent in my pride from him beating me on the final effort.

    Oh well, my string of good luck and form this season on the road had to come to an end at somepoint and this is just another weekend on my way to track nats. More training and more races will be won and lost before August, so time for another training block while I figure out how to ensure I take the carrot that Abers has left me and motivate myself to go a little bit faster next time.
    Last edited by jmikami; 05-04-14 at 10:36 PM.

  13. #313
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Jmikami
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  14. #314
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    ... First up was the Cat 1/2 with a point a lap ... no make that a last second 20 lap scratch race, thanks Zach. With all the local fast guys in attendance it was anything but leisurely. Lap after lap of 1/2 lap pulls and 30 mph speeds saw my legs zapped pretty quick. Take away a proper warm up because of the rain threat and temps and add the fact that I had another set of races and when the pace kicked up with some attacks at 5 to go I was gapped off taking my Ratliff with me. I looked back and he seemed no more interested in closing the gap than I was so there went the race and I dropped out a lap later to save for the first Masters race. ...
    Heh... That first race was fast. I was right on the bubble when the gap opened and didn't notice for half a lap until it was a good two bike lengths. jmikami was fighting hard and then to compound things, when he swung uptrack for me to take a pull, I got trapped on the wrong side of his wheel and ended up taking a ride up to the stayers line - my mistake and that ended it. A bit of a clusterf of a race day with the threat of rain, but it successfully got me past the early season yips. We'll try again next weekend.
    Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 05-04-14 at 08:42 PM.
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  15. #315
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Good reports guys!
    Great racing and thanks for sharing

  16. #316
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    From the last sprint clinic.

    Flying 200: unstable due to wind, had to sit down EARLY. Also felt some wheel hop and came out of the lane between 3/4. Subconciosly let off the gas. Failed. I guess doesn't matter, PB'd.

    3up: went well. I got to the front and was able to keep the race under my control. I feel much more confident in the front of a race. I feel that I can rely on my speed, and I have MUCH more confidence in my top end, than my acceleration. I also feel I'm pretty good at keeping track of what's going on behind me when in the lead.

    I started the race by brining the pace high, because I knew one of the sprinters (Ken, 3rd guy) is stronger than me from a low speed jump (talking to him post race, reveals that it was a good tactic and it kept him from jumping early). The 2nd person (Ethan) was too close to my wheel to capitalize on much so I was fairly unconcerned. I turned most of my attention to Ken (3rd guy). All that "ride while looking backwards" training helps. It's the bell lap, I see Ken swing up to the rail out of saddle; he's making his move. No more time for games, I look forward and commit to a jump and punch it, about 90%. A quick look over my shoulder reveals that he's taken Ethan by surprise and Ken is now in second. But in doing so, he went too fast to really time "the rush." I give it another kick to about 95% in between turn 3/4 and give it another quick look coming out of 4. They've sat up and I take the win.

    vs Sean (11.8): Coach instructs me to not lead out. I let him get too big of a gap when I went to the rail (5~6 bike lengths... ****). In hindsight, I should've come down much earlier, or not gone completely up. I have a mini **** pants moment. The race should be his. He doesn't really punch it and I'm able to get him back into my sights. I tee up, and punch it coming into 3. He reacts a little late and I'm coming over him coming out of 3. He's a teammate and tries to be cute by riding up to the red to see if it spooks me a little. It doesn't really and we brush shoulders ever so intimately at full sprint. Good race, but I think he should've won.

    vs Ethan (11.5): Coach told me to not lead out, because he feels it's my strongest point, and I need to practice different tactics. Overconfidence in my speed gave me this loss, I clearly didn't kick and more or less "rode spirited into the gap" instead of "rushing the gap"... Lost by about half a wheel. Oops.

    vs Ethan (rematch, for the crowd's pleasure): Once again, told to not lead out. I locked my mindset into rushing the gap. Didn't trust my instincts when the race was too low of a pace. Should have taken advantage of the lower speed and come over earlier. Again, I think my lack of confidence in my acceleration may have been a factor here. I just have a feeling that my lack of strength compared to other sprinters is a problem. In the end, I didn't pass, but Ethan caught a gust of wind and swung up violently. Probably would've been relegated.

    Any comments are appreciated!
    Last edited by Jaytron; 05-06-14 at 12:47 PM.
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  17. #317
    Cat 5 Mod Jandro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Any comments are appreciated!


    sup sqrl
    Attack in the feeling because it says I'll win absolutely.

  18. #318
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    @Jandro, huh??
    nice Jaytron - congrats on the PB. Nice race report too.
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  19. #319
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Well, i'm no sprinter, but entered the sprints for race experience at the recent racing.

    Qualifier on a windy 333 outdoor track (compared to my local 250 indoor) felt really fast (for me), but was 0.06s off my PB. oh well, putting it down to the wind ;-). Lesson from this though was the benefit of practise (our coach has had us practising the 333m run in line for about a month), as well as visualization. Both definitely worthwhile.

    First sprint I started at the front, and got in behind (which i prefer), and brought the race up to the top of the banking. Took a chance for a long one (lap and a half) when the front rider's attention went off me - Lights on the track were showing up shadows and was pretty confident for most of the sprint with no encroaching shadows - until about 20m from the line. couldn't believe i had been reeled me in -beware overconfidence, clearely. Took it by half a wheel on the line with every no-you-dont in my body and a bike throw.

    Second ride had my opponent leading out, and bringing a very different tactic from the first race, keeping low and fast. I kept pace higher up (feeling a bit nervous), but managed to get beneath my opponent who eventually came up for a bit of height. Good position to push up from, with the intention on getting the rider trapped on my right hip. The track we were riding has very high turns, and low straights (design blooper, you climb a couple of mountains if you ride against the rail) - pushing up to the rail, we both went up, until we were apparently too high for the comfort of my opponent and we had a nice little lean against each others shoulders. I took the moment of surprise to jump down the banking from a nice height, and fortunately this time the gap i opened in that moment was not closed, so win for me :-)

    I'm definitely not a sprinter, but lots of learnings from that - including that the surprise counts a helluva lot. this is probably old news to the sprinters :-P
    Last edited by Velocirapture; 05-07-14 at 10:57 AM. Reason: typo
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  20. #320
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Arizona hosts a couple events per year out here, since they don't yet have a track of their own (crossing my fingers for you guys). They ran TTs on Saturday, and mass start on Sunday. They have trouble getting enough for the latter, so I went to help them out. Photo below is from the weirdest Miss n Out I've ever done. All cats (except 5) and ages combined, and they pulled every three laps. And then when it was down to 3, they neutralized it before they would do the final sprint. Oh, and the strongest AZ rider lapped the field and thought he was safe from being pulled (nope). Later, they held a scratch race and some Match Sprints. Fun event. Wish more people had showed up.


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    Photos by Gus Sarmiento.

  21. #321
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Drove down with three teammates for San Diego's Saturday Night Lights series, which featured omniums and a keirin. I almost did both, but I'm not quite in that kind of shape yet, and wanted to ensure I could at least hang on to the fast 1/2/3 omnium field. We did a 4k Point-a-lap, 6k Scratch, and 10k Points. I know most of you won't have any sympathy for this, but night racing is always freezing cold at the SD Velodrome! The organizers and racers make up for it though. Otherwise, why would we spend 7 hours in the car for about 1 hour of racing?!

    Teammates in the cat 4/5 Scratch (not quite the whole field):

  22. #322
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Nice Vance. I have to get to the SD velodrome one of these days.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  23. #323
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Nice Vance. I have to get to the SD velodrome one of these days.
    The track itself could use some TLC. But they have a pretty good core group, with solid turnout to most events. As you know, even with solid participation, track renovation expenses (non-subsidised) just aren't possible unless you find a generous sponsor/benefactor. As spoiled as I am by VSC, I don't mind "roughing it"... racing is racing.

  24. #324
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Drove down with three teammates for San Diego's Saturday Night Lights series, which featured omniums and a keirin. I almost did both, but I'm not quite in that kind of shape yet, and wanted to ensure I could at least hang on to the fast 1/2/3 omnium field. We did a 4k Point-a-lap, 6k Scratch, and 10k Points. I know most of you won't have any sympathy for this, but night racing is always freezing cold at the SD Velodrome! The organizers and racers make up for it though. Otherwise, why would we spend 7 hours in the car for about 1 hour of racing?!
    Congrats on getting in some racing, and we are track racers we don't like the cold, at least the ones I race with, even in Oregon.

    I missed our weekend track race as it was mothers day, but I am looking forward to finally switching over to the velodrome and warm temps. Looks like my teammate was able to take top honors however. Should be a fun season.

  25. #325
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    I know most of you won't have any sympathy for this, but night racing is always freezing cold at the SD Velodrome!
    When you say freezing cold... what kind of cold are we talkin' about here?
    the hipster myth.

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