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  1. #101
    Senior Member spazegun2213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    I'm in the 5's and sometimes NOBODY will take the pole lane. Everyone will sit up above the red line because nobody wants to pull. A little frustrating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Unless the pace is really jamming, the sprinters lane is a pretty poor place to be. Attacks come from over the top usually.
    +1 on both of these.

    While I have only a little training, I have noticed that the ONLY time I want to be the lead in sprinters lane is 1) at the start to a short points race (eg, when I know I can go off the front grab a point and sit back for a little) or 2) when I'm sprinting for something. Past that I've been stuffed there WAY too many times for me to consider that a great place to ride.

    3rd friday in a row of racing. I even signed up for the kilo, which would be a first for me. I got there a little late after attending a happy hour (don't worry I didnt imbibe), but just in time to suit up and head out for the paceline warmup. I finished but decided that I was not going to bother to sprint hard at the end. I put in a good 70% effort on the last lap and cruised in.

    The first race was a 6 lap tempo, and while I managed to grab a point near the end, it was not enough for the top 5. After that was the Kilo, and my happy hour tot's were starting to make their presence known... and not in a good way. I ended up volunteering to go first (because I had to race right after the kiloer's were done) and jebus did that start SUCK! I really need to practice standing starts, but past that I pretty much wanted to die on the last lap. I came in feeling horrific, but it was done and with a 1:28.5 the time showed I have a LOT to learn/do.

    The second race was a triple sprint, which was another first. I LOVED it! it was some of the closest racing I've done yet, with lots of people. Because of the pace and short distance it was just a blast. I knew I didnt have anything on the first sprint, so I let it go. I was angling for the second when I got pinned in the sprinters lane (note above). The third, I knew I had to be better placed, and coming into t3 on the second to last lap I was in the paceline just above the sprinters lane, and making my move. I ended up starting my effort just as the front guy was coming out and up track. So I went up pretty far, and around I went. I managed to gain and keep a supposedly 5-8 rider gap between me and anyone chasing to take the win. For a moment I thought I had actually won, but ended up second, which I'll take.

    The last race was a 15 lap scratch. A single guy went off the front for nearly the entire race, but for once the D's worked together and had a great paceline going and a good speed. We caught the lone man with 1 to go and I was in a good place but my sprint ended up being a little slow so I ended up 5th.

    Overall, it was another great friday! I'm even thinking of doing a C race next friday just to see how much faster they are.

    It was a great turn out again with probably ~20 or so D riders.
    '11 allez Comp, very specialized & '09 Pinarello Pista, that only turns left
    It doesn't hurt any less, you just go faster

  2. #102
    No matches Flatballer's Avatar
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    First races for this year on Friday. Chariot, Wheelrace (handicap) and then unknown distance. My first ever chariot and wheelrace. The chariot I was 3rd out of 3. Had a pretty poor start and the holder wouldn't lean me farther up track even though I kept asking. My wife had a good angle on it and said the bike was way down track.

    Wheel race I was third slowest out of about 8, no holders for this so we had to clip in, which I'm terrible at doing quickly. It all came together within a lap and was basically a 9 lap scratch race from there. I didn't do great. Got caught on a bad wheel and shot out the back when the attack came.

    Uknown distance I was just too tired to do anything. I'm out of shape, but it was fun overall.
    It's a bike race, not a tea party. - GirlAnachronism

  3. #103
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Chariot and wheel races are not something we have in my neck of the world - what is the format of these races, out of interest?

  4. #104
    No matches Flatballer's Avatar
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    Chariot is a sprinters race (and is pretty awesome, I have to say). One lap, standing start, 2+ riders depending on track size. Steeply banked like our 250 (42.5) they did 4, except my heat which was 3. More than that and I think the outside rider gets too much advantage. It's one lap all out, no tactics really, just a drag race. Inside person has an advantage if they get a good start, outside has gravity on their side but can get shut out. Won and lost in the first 10m.

    Wheel race (or handicap) is from Australia, not that popular in the states (I didn't like it much honestly). They space you around the track with the slowest rider at the pursuit or start/finish line in the front, and faster riders starting at gaps behind him. Some number of laps. Theoretically if they space everyone correctly you all finish together coming together in the last 50m or so. Ours came together in the first 250m so it was weird. Ours was 10 laps with 10 meters between people. Not enough distance to mean much.

    I think the chariot would be a LOT more fun with gates. Having held starts in something where the start is so extremely important doesn't work real well. Some people looked like they were getting away a little early, but with holders it's so hard to tell. Not sure how much they cost, but I'm guessing it's expensive. I'm sure they're on the list of things to get for the track though.
    It's a bike race, not a tea party. - GirlAnachronism

  5. #105
    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
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    Chariots are always our go to we have extra sunlight race. They are a great place to practice your standing starts and race off your friendly rivalries.


    My season finally kicked off last Thursday, after a long spring of leading an 8 week long training clinic for new riders. I was really unsure at how it would go for me. I have been spending a lot of time with creating a new team, and working on the long term organizing of the velodrome stuff.

    5 Lap Scratch:
    I am in no way a sprinter, so a 5 lap scratch is always a scary race for me. It was a teammate's first B race, so I was trying to get him in a good spot. With three to go some one went for a hard break, but it never really materialized, other than breaking some of the slower guys off the back(me). Ended up pretty far back.

    Miss and Out:
    As more of a thinker than anything else I love the miss and outs. It also plays well to my strengths of having something in the tank at the right time, no matter what. I didn't have to play the devil too much, but I survived pretty deep in. Like I told the new C riders on my team. EVERYONE loses this race by being boxed in at some point, and thats what happened to me. I noticed it at the start of turn 4, so I had no chance.

    10? Lap Tempo:
    I really wanted our new B rider to get a win, so the plan was for me to get off the front and snag some of the early point, and let him score a bunch deeper. But my plan was figured out and I had to fight hard on the first two laps. I won one and got a second on the other. It was good enough for 5th. Fourth tied me in points, but he got me on the final lap. My rider ended up on with the leaders battling for the late points and ended up in 3rd.
    Last edited by Kayce; 05-14-13 at 05:03 PM.
    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

  6. #106
    Senior Member zizou's Avatar
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    Got my first couple of wins wooo!

    Started off with a 10 lap scratch. Starting position was important here then the roll out lap then the ***, i was near the front all the time so well placed when the sprint opened up i managed to get a 2nd on the line.

    Next up a 30 lap scratch, was active for most of the race sticking near the front doing a few pulls then with about 4 laps to go i was on the front and an attack came from above with a couple of riders and i managed to drag it back very gradually then come round for the win. Actually i think that is how it unfolded, I cant really remember how i got to the line - i just remember making a huge effort on the back straight after that its a blur

    Then a 40 lap points, with points up every 5 laps. Didnt contest the first points but contested the second (coming second) and noticed we had quite a gap after that sprint so shouted attack to the other rider and off we went, sucked up the next couple of sprints and almost got a lap on the rest of the field but my legs started to go and i lost the wheel - he was strong enough to make it on the back of the group but i wasn't so it turned into a sufferfest and i was losing the gap bit by bit and i was having to dig deep to stay out. Track was getting a bit chaotic at this point as there were some dropped riders from the group who i managed to overtake and when someone passed me i thought it was someone i already had lap on but instead it was someone who'd jumped off the group to close it down. In any case i didnt have the legs to stay with him anyway. Ended up with a 3rd rather than a 2nd which was a little disappointing due to the amount of effort i'd put in!

    Next a 20 lap points. Was supposed to be a 50 lap but time was running out so it was 20 instead, i was pleased with this after the hard work in the points race. It was a bit of a strange race as one rider took a huge pull on the front, probably about 14 laps, not really sure why though! I was low and in danger of getting boxed in but i was just wanting as big a tow as possible at this point as my legs were feeling heavy so didnt panic and managed to move into a better position with 4 laps to go and maintain it and by the bell lap was sitting 3rd - big effort on the back straight to get on the shoulder of the guy in the lead who was in the sprinters lane. Ideal position as we come slingshotting out the final turn and managed to pull ahead for the line.

    Couple of things helped me make the break through and get my first wins: More experience, my positioning is getting better as the weeks progress and I also think im getting better at knowing what wheels to follow. I also got lucky with my positioning at the important times! It was also my first time on a 50x15 as opposed to a 49x15, in the warm up i thought i was maybe a little over geared as i like the 49x15 but come the racing it felt good. A little slower to accelerate but i could sustain my sprint a bit longer.

  7. #107
    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
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    That seems like an odd combination of races, compared to what we do here in St. Louis. Which velodrome are you racing at? What group do you race in, and what groups competed that night?
    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

  8. #108
    Senior Member zizou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayce View Post
    That seems like an odd combination of races, compared to what we do here in St. Louis. Which velodrome are you racing at? What group do you race in, and what groups competed that night?
    Its the Sir Chris Hoy velodrome in Glasgow which is a 250 metre indoor track. This was the endurance night in the C group and there were A and B races too (these are a bit longer.) During the winter league there was a devil / elimination race instead of one of the points races but that has disappeared from the schedule. Also back then there was enough entrants for a D group for beginners (which i was in) but things have quietened down a bit now partly because for the summer league there are new rules meant the hire/rental bikes are not allowed to be used racing now. Sprint night is next week and involves a flying lap for seeding then a sprint ladder with matched sprints - you win you move up, you lose you move down.

  9. #109
    No matches Flatballer's Avatar
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    Last night was another Friday night league races at Giordana. Split scratch, then tempo, then win and out. At the end they also had a bonus miss and out for anyone who wanted.

    I'm a slow D and was mixed with the slower half of the Cs and all women. There were a number of out of towners there since the Red Rider Classic is tomorrow (today now). One of the women was super strong and some of the Cs were strong. I didn't really race, I mostly just tried to hang on, with mixed results. Nothing super exciting happened. There was a crash from people going too slow at the beginning of the miss and out.

    One question: someone from another track was saying that at their track if someone is taking a pull in the sprinters lane and goes up track to pull off, no one is allowed to follow them. Why is that? Seems like a weird, arbitrary rule to me.
    It's a bike race, not a tea party. - GirlAnachronism

  10. #110
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
    One question: someone from another track was saying that at their track if someone is taking a pull in the sprinters lane and goes up track to pull off, no one is allowed to follow them. Why is that? Seems like a weird, arbitrary rule to me.
    Saying that "nobody is allowed" seems a bit misguided, but it's definitely frowned upon. The idea is that you shouldn't lead the field on a wormy route up and down the velodrome (and, in this situation, it's that second person, following the puller-offer, who's leading the field on the wormy route).

    Protocol is, you take a turn at the front (even if just for a few meters) and then you swing up.

    If you can't see the wind for a handful of seconds, you shouldn't be second wheel.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  11. #111
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
    One question: someone from another track was saying that at their track if someone is taking a pull in the sprinters lane and goes up track to pull off, no one is allowed to follow them. Why is that? Seems like a weird, arbitrary rule to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    Saying that "nobody is allowed" seems a bit misguided, but it's definitely frowned upon. The idea is that you shouldn't lead the field on a wormy route up and down the velodrome (and, in this situation, it's that second person, following the puller-offer, who's leading the field on the wormy route).

    Protocol is, you take a turn at the front (even if just for a few meters) and then you swing up.

    If you can't see the wind for a handful of seconds, you shouldn't be second wheel.
    +1

    It's not against the rules, but I've seen it cause problems.

    Basically, the 1st guy will pull up and the 2nd guy will follow. Then the first guy slows down and the 2nd guy may run into him. Or if multiple people do it at once, then they fan out and now you are racing 3 or 4 across...then there is a lot of shuffling and stuff.

    I've also seen people pull hard on a points race sprint lap and then PULL UP coming out of turn four...BAM. They took out the rider who was trying to pass over the top.

  12. #112
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I've also seen people pull hard on a points race sprint lap and then PULL UP coming out of turn four...BAM. They took out the rider who was trying to pass over the top.
    that's a perfect example of... i dunno what. maybe of, "there's no substitute for experience." cause, i dunno, sure, you follow certain rules and protocols. except when you just don't. cause it's a really bad idea.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  13. #113
    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
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    Its the same as the NEVER pass to the left rule. New riders get that rule. Then overtime learn when it is safe to break.
    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

  14. #114
    No matches Flatballer's Avatar
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    At his track he was saying it was a DQ. At our track it just seems like racing to me. I don't think there have been any crashes at our track from anything other than people going too slowly. I've never even heard that rule or had anyone say it at our track.

    I've also never heard the never pass to the left rule. Also seems like a weird rule to me. It's racing, I don't see why the need for all the rules about where you can and can't go on the track, other than the actual rules, and the ones during training.
    It's a bike race, not a tea party. - GirlAnachronism

  15. #115
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
    At his track he was saying it was a DQ. At our track it just seems like racing to me. I don't think there have been any crashes at our track from anything other than people going too slowly. I've never even heard that rule or had anyone say it at our track.

    I've also never heard the never pass to the left rule. Also seems like a weird rule to me. It's racing, I don't see why the need for all the rules about where you can and can't go on the track, other than the actual rules, and the ones during training.
    Rules are there until they are replaced by experience.

  16. #116
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
    It's racing, I don't see why the need for all the rules about where you can and can't go on the track, other than the actual rules, and the ones during training.
    It's like any other bike racing discipline - or just about anything else. There are the Actual Rules, and then there are the guidelines that are really important, slightly flexible, difficult to codify into rules, and good to communicate as Rules to beginners.

    Cycling is a different kind of sport. Nobody's calling fouls or penalties - instead, we have to look out for ourselves and each other, and since we become part of this writhing, dynamic animal called a peloton, there have to be some common understandings in order to help keep it safe.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  17. #117
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    It's like any other bike racing discipline - or just about anything else. There are the Actual Rules, and then there are the guidelines that are really important, slightly flexible, difficult to codify into rules, and good to communicate as Rules to beginners.

    Cycling is a different kind of sport. Nobody's calling fouls or penalties - instead, we have to look out for ourselves and each other, and since we become part of this writhing, dynamic animal called a peloton, there have to be some common understandings in order to help keep it safe.
    Yup.

    All of the rules, written and unwritten (aside from UCI silliness) are rooted in safety.

    Track cycling is raced in very close quarters. The closest of any cycling discipline. Sudden lane changes by new racers on new racers often cause problems. Mainly because the new racers may not have a sense of when it is safe and expected to make such a move and the affected new racers may not know how to deal with it within a split second.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I've also seen people pull hard on a points race sprint lap and then PULL UP coming out of turn four...BAM. They took out the rider who was trying to pass over the top.
    Our track's unwritten rule here is that when the sprint is on, you hold your line regardless. In my first year, I was in a handicap race and I was coming around the outside of the first 2 riders. First place was fading and he went to pull up knowing that I was coming around. What he didn't realise was that I was already coming around him. THAT was a butt clenching moment!

  19. #119
    No matches Flatballer's Avatar
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    Last night was sprint night at the track. Flying 200 was 14.33, so pretty slow but not slowest. Had to race a 5 lap scratch to qualify, finished 2nd to qualify 16th. Got beat by a guy from DLV on a green Serenity who rode an 11.5 and said he was hoping for an 11.2. I pretended to know tactics, he actually knew tactics, I jumped, he rode over top of me like I wasn't moving.

    10 lap scratch for fun, finished 8th or 9th probably. Miss and out for fun, finished mid pack. Played devil, which I enjoy, but then just got worn out and lazy and got caught at the bottom. Fun night though. I'm getting faster, but still slow. Enjoying the process though.
    It's a bike race, not a tea party. - GirlAnachronism

  20. #120
    Senior Member spazegun2213's Avatar
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    Friday was had some amazing ups and downs. I have very little strategy when it comes to shorter races, so I've decided to go out and take the first few points and mix things up a bit. Gives me 1) points, and 2) time to recover a little. While this has been working for me in the past, friday the tables turned and it backfired. The First race was a 7 lap snowball where I had someone come around me on the first two laps so I got 0 points but had a strong finish for somewhere in the middle of the pack . The triple sprint was also interesting and only managed to grab a couple of points on one of the sprints. again

    By this point in the night I really thought 2 weeks of not racing had made me REALLY bad. I could not get points in the first race, I seemed to not be able to keep pace with people in the sprints and I was starting to get aggravated.... but that was about to end. The last race was a 15 lap scratch. I've started to learn that you need time to position yourself for the last lap or two, which is usually an all out sprint for the win. I rode in the paceline near the front most of the time. On lap 5 I decided I was going to move out of the line and position myself early enough not to be caught out in the mayhem in the 2-3 lap range. So I moved up and maintained pace about 2 people back from the front (I should have moved up more). When the bell rang I was in a great position, and managed a 2nd place. One of the guys in the paceline in front of me just took off and I could not catch him, but it was a hard earned 2nd, and I was happy.

    I did learn that I if I conserve for 10 laps, I can "hang out" there for a few laps and have something left at the end. However, I might need to move further up, or do something else so as not to let someone off the front.
    '11 allez Comp, very specialized & '09 Pinarello Pista, that only turns left
    It doesn't hurt any less, you just go faster

  21. #121
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Worst season ever for me. I just want to put that out there.

    I have a grab-bag of excuses:

    New stressful job
    New city
    New training program
    New track
    New bike
    New crank length
    New diet
    New relationship

    My only hope is that it all comes together when it has to. Hope.

  22. #122
    Senior Member spazegun2213's Avatar
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    Dude, you are a haus... this is how I read your excuses

    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post

    I have a grab-bag of excuses:

    New stressful job which pays for all my bikes, and the 10,000 calories I eat a day to say a haus
    New city which means I don't actually know where the track is.... yet
    New training program because my last one was too easy
    New track I'm still learning where every little undulation is... this s**t takes time to learn!
    New bike because I busted my last one applying 2 giggawatts of power in a sprint
    New crank length because I kept breaking my last one
    New diet you know, I had to hire a chef to prepare 10,000 calories a day... good food takes time
    New relationship started seeing said chef


    In all seriousness its life, do what you can.
    '11 allez Comp, very specialized & '09 Pinarello Pista, that only turns left
    It doesn't hurt any less, you just go faster

  23. #123
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spazegun2213 View Post
    Dude, you are a haus... this is how I read your excuses





    In all seriousness its life, do what you can.
    HAHAHA! Thanks! I needed that.

  24. #124
    Senior Member spazegun2213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    HAHAHA! Thanks! I needed that.
    Np, we all have those days/weeks/years. All we can do is our best, so good luck (especially with that relationship ) just remind them to kick you out of the house every once and a while with your bike
    '11 allez Comp, very specialized & '09 Pinarello Pista, that only turns left
    It doesn't hurt any less, you just go faster

  25. #125
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spazegun2213 View Post
    Np, we all have those days/weeks/years. All we can do is our best, so good luck (especially with that relationship ) just remind them to kick you out of the house every once and a while with your bike
    Will do

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