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  1. #126
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    Carleton, this happened to me in a big way when we moved back from Japan in 2011. I'm really only getting back on my game now, two years later. Moving and finding a groove in a new spot takes time. Don't rush it and don't get discouraged. It will come back. Don't make the same mistakes I did pushing yourself into injury. Take it easy and have faith and patience.

  2. #127
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Carleton, this happened to me in a big way when we moved back from Japan in 2011. I'm really only getting back on my game now, two years later. Moving and finding a groove in a new spot takes time. Don't rush it and don't get discouraged. It will come back. Don't make the same mistakes I did pushing yourself into injury. Take it easy and have faith and patience.
    Thanks, man.

    BTW, Kirk is a great coach (and friend). Very patient and he definitely listens and adjusts the program as needed.

  3. #128
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    Are you still ok for LA this month? No pressure, if you need a rest, take it.

  4. #129
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Are you still ok for LA this month? No pressure, if you need a rest, take it.
    No, I'm still in. It's a mini vacation for me as well as giving me a mid-season goal for which to train.

    ...and by "mini vacation for me" I mean that my lady has already scheduled time off from work to go to LA so...yeah, I'm going no matter how I feel

  5. #130
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    Carleton - wow, I feel you.
    This was the year I was aiming to go make noise at collegiate nats, and instead every single thing in my life which ranks higher on the priority chart than racing has had major meltdowns. My goals of going fast in a cat1/2 field by July now look like, "don't get dropped in the Cat3 field at the Marymoor GP".

    Wife, dog, job, 2nd job, grad school... I've barely touched a bike in the last 7 weeks.

    I trained twice last week, rode yesterday, after a winter run-up & 6 omniums/stage races when everything was looking my way, it now doesn't look like my year.

    Hold strong, stay the course, who knows where you'll end up.
    You'll get through it.
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  6. #131
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    Carleton - wow, I feel you.
    This was the year I was aiming to go make noise at collegiate nats, and instead every single thing in my life which ranks higher on the priority chart than racing has had major meltdowns. My goals of going fast in a cat1/2 field by July now look like, "don't get dropped in the Cat3 field at the Marymoor GP".

    Wife, dog, job, 2nd job, grad school... I've barely touched a bike in the last 7 weeks.

    I trained twice last week, rode yesterday, after a winter run-up & 6 omniums/stage races when everything was looking my way, it now doesn't look like my year.

    Hold strong, stay the course, who knows where you'll end up.
    You'll get through it.
    Thanks for the support. You hang in there, too. Pick your battles.

    Screw it. Let's all drop out of life and start a cycling commune and live off of our winnings!






    ...we'd starve within a week

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    ...we'd starve within a week

    Eh - between what you sprinters eat, and what us enduro's tend to win... I'd give us one, maybe two days?
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  8. #133
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hida yanra View Post
    eh - between what you sprinters eat, and what us enduro's tend to win... I'd give us one, maybe two days?
    hahaha!

  9. #134
    Senior Member zizou's Avatar
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    What are the rules involving lapped riders? Was in a 50 lap scratch and im leading in the sprinters lane on the back straight - sense someone trying to come round but i felt confident that i could hold it off round the bend and then the race to the line. However when i come out the final bend there are 3 lapped riders ahead and i need to either ease off or cut across the others sprinting and cause a crash so obviously i ease up and ended up outside the top 3 which was rather frustrating!

    Is this just considered racing and my own fault for not seeing them far enough in advance to do something about it or should i have appealed to the commissaire afterwards? I know that lapped riders are not meant to contest the sprint but they werent doing this they were just getting in the way going slower.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by zizou View Post
    I know that lapped riders are not meant to contest the sprint but they werent doing this they were just getting in the way going slower.
    You should have appealed.
    It was the commissaire's fault for not pulling them and causing an impediment to the racing. HOWEVER, since it was the commissaire's fault for not pulling them, in my experience they are highly unlikely to rectify the situation afterwards.... I don't know if it is because they don't want to appear wrong or what - it happens though.

    The riders should have been more aware and moved up track, but lapped riders aren't always thinking about what is going on behind them. Though they should have moved up, the blame rests on the officials for not ensuring that the head of the race was un-impeded.

    I lost a crit to a generally identical ruling earlier this year - frustrating, but other than lodging a complaint and hoping for the best, there is nothing really to be done.
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  11. #136
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zizou View Post
    What are the rules involving lapped riders? Was in a 50 lap scratch and im leading in the sprinters lane on the back straight - sense someone trying to come round but i felt confident that i could hold it off round the bend and then the race to the line. However when i come out the final bend there are 3 lapped riders ahead and i need to either ease off or cut across the others sprinting and cause a crash so obviously i ease up and ended up outside the top 3 which was rather frustrating!

    Is this just considered racing and my own fault for not seeing them far enough in advance to do something about it or should i have appealed to the commissaire afterwards? I know that lapped riders are not meant to contest the sprint but they werent doing this they were just getting in the way going slower.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    You should have appealed...


    Actually, Zizou shouldn't have caught the slow riders if he wanted to keep his position at the front of the race.

    As soon as the lead rider of the pack catches a trailing rider (effectively lapping the trailing rider), that trailing rider is -20pts BUT he is now back in the pack AND can fight for the sprint points.

    So, let's say I was the slow guy and I get caught on a sprint lap to go down -20pts, but then I get on the gas and if I win that sprint lap I get +5pts for a net of -15pts.

    In my first season racing I did this and I got chewed out buy the guy who's points I stole, but not by the race director who said that it was legal.

    To make a long story short, it happens. This is also why you see a group (of say 3 riders) trying to lap the field and are doing so during a sprint lap. Those 3 riders will intentionally linger several meters back of the pack in order to get their 5, 3, & 2 sprint points before catching the pack and getting the +20 bonus, effectively getting a double bonus of 25, 23, and 22 points respectively. If they catch the pack, the leaders of the pack get the 5, 3, 2, 1 points and the 3 that lapped the field only get +20 each.

  12. #137
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Now on the subject of what to do with those pesky lapped riders...

    From the Slow Rider's POV:
    - Ride in the sprinter's lane.
    - DO NOT move up track to clear the way for riders approaching from the rear.
    - Ride your race.
    - You can get on the tail of a group of riders but you cannot intentionally slow down to provide aero benefit for some guy behind you to bring him back up. (I'll explain this later).
    - You cannot go down a lap then take pulls on the front of a group of riders. (I'll explain this later).
    - Safely overtake other slow riders.

    From the Faster Rider's POV:
    - Safely overtake the slower rider...even if it's 20 of you overtaking one guy, all 20 pass over the top safely.
    - DO NOT yell at him to "MOVE OVER" and get out of your way.

    Fromt he Race Director's POV:
    - Pull slower riders if you feel that they will never be able to contest the race (i.e. "Get a second wind"). This is to eliminate this entire issue. You see this at even the Olympic level.
    - If it's not an important race (i.e. local training races) maybe let the slower riders stay in for training. At the local level, usually no one gets pulled.



    Now, about going down a lap then being "a good teammate".

    Let's say that I'm not the best Points Race guy (we all know I'm the best, but for the sake of argument, let's say I'm not ). And my teammate informs me that he want's to lap the field mid-race. I'm not strong enough to go off the front with him, but I wait. When I see him 1/2 a lap away and the field is chasing him, I, being a good teammate, SLOW DOWN and drop off the back of the pack in order to BACK-IN to my teammate and provide him a draft to ease his pain and lead him up to the back for his +20. This is illegal.

    Which brings me to the next point. Any lapped rider cannot take pulls on the front of any break-away group. If you want to be part of the break-away group, the customary thing for the lapped rider to do is to hang on the back (never taking a pull) and being the "gatekeeper" basically letting guys take their pull then you let them slide in in front of you.

    This is great for getting a workout. Basically the guys are motorpacing you around. The hard part is dealing with the surges of backing off and getting back as you let people in. It's not a steady-state effort. But, it's a great workout.
    Last edited by carleton; 06-06-13 at 06:09 PM.

  13. #138
    No matches Flatballer's Avatar
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    That's good to know about being lapped. I always assumed it was like the road and the rider being overtaken got out of the way. I actually had a rider yell at me (she knows even less than I do though) for not getting out of her way when she was sprinting for 5th place in some training race. I assumed I was wrong and should've gone up track, but what I actually did was drop down into the blue a little bit. Is it ok to drop down some or should you just hold your line completely on the bottom of the sprinter's lane?
    It's a bike race, not a tea party. - GirlAnachronism

  14. #139
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
    That's good to know about being lapped. I always assumed it was like the road and the rider being overtaken got out of the way. I actually had a rider yell at me (she knows even less than I do though) for not getting out of her way when she was sprinting for 5th place in some training race. I assumed I was wrong and should've gone up track, but what I actually did was drop down into the blue a little bit. Is it ok to drop down some or should you just hold your line completely on the bottom of the sprinter's lane?
    Hold your line in the sprinter's lane.

    You are not responsible for what happens behind you because you cannot see behind you. The riders behind you see exactly what's happening and they are responsible for planning accordingly. Your only responsibility is to ride in a straight line.

    One note:

    Let's say there is a situation where there are 3 guys in a small group taking pulls together then a faster group is approaching from the rear. In this situation DO NOT take pulls until they have passed you. All 3 are to ride in a straight line until it is clear for the front rider to pull off. Usually one of your group will yell for you all to "STAY" or "Don't Pull Off" until it's clear. This occurs very often in longer race of all skill levels.

  15. #140
    Senior Member Cannon's Avatar
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    Raced in my first track race last night and it was just as fun as I was expecting it to be. Normally our velodrome puts the 5s races on Fridays by themselves, but since it was the first 5 race of the season and the normal Thursday night race was slightly condensed due to Madisons, the organizers kindly included us on the schedule. It was definitely entertaining to watch the fireworks going off in the upper categories and motivating to upgrade asap. The atmosphere at a track race is just fantastic.

    Anyway, the first race was a point-a-lap. I was riding an undergeared loaner Schwinn so had some trouble matching the sprints, especially without a warm-up (bringing a trainer next time for sure), but still managed to place third. Learned who I needed to watch for and where to wind up my sprint, and had lots of painful fun, so it was a good race.

    Second race was a 15 lap points race. I liked this one more because there was a bit more strategy working into the right position and keeping an eye on the fast guys on the off laps. After mistakenly sprinting with a guy on the third lap due to some incorrect instructions at the start, stuck with him to take second points on lap 5. Into the second points lap the leader was sucking wheel so I moved up his outside to box his sprint into corner 3, managing to come around the outside and taking first points. Got stuck on the front after the sprint so tried to recover as best I could on the front. On lap 15 I decided to jump off the front on the back stretch as I knew the quick guys would be coming around any second. Managed to grab a wheel and get second points, and the win! After many times on the second and third step on the podium in road races this year it was definitely satisfying to get my first win and have it be on the track, even if it was only a 5s race. Very much looking forward to getting my own bike built up and racing a whole lot more this summer.
    Cannondale Six13
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  16. #141
    No matches Flatballer's Avatar
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    Congrats on the win. Nicely done.
    It's a bike race, not a tea party. - GirlAnachronism

  17. #142
    VeloSIRraptor
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Actually, Zizou shouldn't have caught the slow riders if he wanted to keep his position at the front of the race.

    As soon as the lead rider of the pack catches a trailing rider (effectively lapping the trailing rider), that trailing rider is -20pts BUT he is now back in the pack AND can fight for the sprint points.
    Quote Originally Posted by zizou View Post
    What are the rules involving lapped riders? Was in a 50 lap scratch
    I'm not C, and I respect your opinions a lot... but his question wasn't about a points race.
    Agreed, in a points race that's a very different situation, but lapped riders, in a scratch, as the pack is finishing need to not be there.

    Points races, yep - keep your head in the game and keep racing... IMO, at the last lap of a scratch race... have some respect.
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  18. #143
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    I surprised myself the other week, I got to the track ready, even in time for a good warm-up!

    Scratch race (I can't remember the distance, but it was long) - I pretty much got beaten up with this and was dead by the end, just missing out on podium by less than a bike length!
    Points race, mixed categories - U16, B and A (that's youth up to elite categories) were thrown together for this, a bad call IMO. All riders except FOUR were lapped, but left to an incredible bunch sprint finish.
    Devil - I got boxed in on the second elimination, total disappointment, this was the event I thought I would do well in. Must be more aware!
    500M Handicap - The poor devil probably gave me the majority of motivation for this - The higher you were in the scratch, the further back you started. So 1st started at the 500m line and 10th only did about 400m. I was 3rd (the guy who placed 2nd in the scratch pulled out due to injury) so I started from 480m and took the whole field... I won't brag too much, but I was told it was impressive.
    Epic/Tarmac/Langster Pro

  19. #144
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    I'm not C, and I respect your opinions a lot... but his question wasn't about a points race.
    Agreed, in a points race that's a very different situation, but lapped riders, in a scratch, as the pack is finishing need to not be there.

    Points races, yep - keep your head in the game and keep racing... IMO, at the last lap of a scratch race... have some respect.
    Oh, I thought it was a Points race. But, the point still remains, even in a scratch race, there may be lapped riders on the track. The same guidelines apply. The rider in the rear must adjust and go around the slower riders.

  20. #145
    VeloSIRraptor
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Oh, I thought it was a Points race. But, the point still remains, even in a scratch race, there may be lapped riders on the track. The same guidelines apply. The rider in the rear must adjust and go around the slower riders.
    I'm totally with you on what the behavior of the lapping riders should be - they need to go around... however, isn't it the RD/official's job to make sure they aren't there? (delta in speed, possibility of crashes, et al)

    I'm not a track expert, just a padawan
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  21. #146
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    I'm totally with you on what the behavior of the lapping riders should be - they need to go around... however, isn't it the RD/official's job to make sure they aren't there? (delta in speed, possibility of crashes, et al)

    I'm not a track expert, just a padawan
    I'm no expert either

    Lapped riders can easily occur during the last few laps of any race of significant distance at any level of racing. It's part of racing.

    It's normal for a race directory to let a rider go 1 lap down. When one goes 2 laps down are they subject to being pulled.

  22. #147
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Here is a results scorecard from a World Cup Scratch Race. Notice how 11 of the 18 racers had been lapped

    2013 UCI TRACK CYCLING WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS - MINSK
    Minsk (BLR), BLR
    February 20th - 24th 2013

    http://www.tissottiming.com/File/Dow...FFFFFFFFFFFF02

    It happens

  23. #148
    Senior Member zizou's Avatar
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    Thanks for clarifying things!

  24. #149
    Senior Member spazegun2213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Here is a results scorecard from a World Cup Scratch Race. Notice how 11 of the 18 racers had been lapped

    2013 UCI TRACK CYCLING WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS - MINSK
    Minsk (BLR), BLR
    February 20th - 24th 2013

    http://www.tissottiming.com/File/Dow...FFFFFFFFFFFF02

    It happens
    is that normal? that seems a little shocking to me that on the world level, that 2 people can be SO much better than the rest. While I realize they could have worked together and the rest may have been unorganized, that is striking.
    '11 allez Comp, very specialized & '09 Pinarello Pista, that only turns left
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  25. #150
    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
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    The results are from the omnium, so people target certian races, and others have their weak point.

    Once a rider, or in this case two, gain a lap and get back in the field it is very hard for a large group to gain a lap on them. Usually what happens, if there is time, another rider or two will go off the front and try to gain a lap to join the top two that are already up a lap.

    The best way to look at this is not to think everyone is down a lap, but that Dibben and De Buyst are up a lap.
    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

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