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carleton 06-11-13 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spazegun2213 (Post 15730633)
is that normal? that seems a little shocking to me that on the world level, that 2 people can be SO much better than the rest. While I realize they could have worked together and the rest may have been unorganized, that is striking.

Yes. That happens almost every race.

Sometimes there are racers that are head and shoulders above the others, but most of the time at that level they are equally matched in terms of physical ability and the race's outcome is determined by tactics and situations. So, yes...it's normal.

Go here: http://www.tissottiming.com/Sport?sport=CT

and pick and event and go to the results of ANY scratch or points race (men or women) and you may see the same.

In this WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP Points Pace (not part of the Omnium), Belorussian Raman Ramanau was lapped 3 times and still finished the race...with -58pts

http://www.tissottiming.com/File/Dow...FFFFFFFFFFFF02

So, yes, it happens and it is OK :)

carleton 06-11-13 01:35 PM

So, that's at the highest of the highest levels of track cycling.

Don't sweat it if it happens at your local track :P

Don't demand that some guy gets pulled if he goes down a lap...or two :D

The take-away point from all of this conversation is for all that are involved to know how to safely handle the situation (as described earlier in the thread).

Brian Ratliff 06-11-13 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spazegun2213 (Post 15730633)
is that normal? that seems a little shocking to me that on the world level, that 2 people can be SO much better than the rest. While I realize they could have worked together and the rest may have been unorganized, that is striking.

Remember too that to be up a lap, you only need about a 25 second gap. This is no crit where you need to be up multiple minutes on the field in order to lap.

In a points race, it is expected that some riders will go up (and down) laps and it's accounted for in the points. If you gain a lap, it's worth 20 points. If you get lapped it's -20 points. If you get in trouble, you take your 20 point hit, collect yourself, wait for the field to come around again and get right back into it. I've actually seen one local race where a guy went down a lap early, got back in and won enough sprints over the remainder of the race to come close to winning it.

spazegun2213 06-12-13 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 15730847)
Yes. That happens almost every race.

Sometimes there are racers that are head and shoulders above the others, but most of the time at that level they are equally matched in terms of physical ability and the race's outcome is determined by tactics and situations. So, yes...it's normal.

Go here: http://www.tissottiming.com/Sport?sport=CT

and pick and event and go to the results of ANY scratch or points race (men or women) and you may see the same.

In this WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP Points Pace (not part of the Omnium), Belorussian Raman Ramanau was lapped 3 times and still finished the race...with -58pts

http://www.tissottiming.com/File/Dow...FFFFFFFFFFFF02

So, yes, it happens and it is OK :)

Just seems weird to me. Then again, I'm so new I've yet to see what type of tactics/skill/ridiculousness is needed to lap the field.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff (Post 15731010)
Remember too that to be up a lap, you only need about a 25 second gap. This is no crit where you need to be up multiple minutes on the field in order to lap.

In a points race, it is expected that some riders will go up (and down) laps and it's accounted for in the points. If you gain a lap, it's worth 20 points. If you get lapped it's -20 points. If you get in trouble, you take your 20 point hit, collect yourself, wait for the field to come around again and get right back into it. I've actually seen one local race where a guy went down a lap early, got back in and won enough sprints over the remainder of the race to come close to winning it.

I mean, 25 seconds is still a lot.... but I see your point.

Wait... what? so if you go down a lap you can still sprint for points? How does that work, when the field is on the sprint lap, wouldn't the lapped rider be sprint lap -1... so not able to win points?

Brian Ratliff 06-12-13 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spazegun2213 (Post 15734642)
...

I mean, 25 seconds is still a lot.... but I see your point.

Wait... what? so if you go down a lap you can still sprint for points? How does that work, when the field is on the sprint lap, wouldn't the lapped rider be sprint lap -1... so not able to win points?

In a points race, if you go down a lap, you are assessed a penalty of 20 points and you can get back into the field and race for points again. If you go up a lap, you are awarded a bonus 20 points and when you get back into the field, others can compete with you for points again.

And, yes, there is a bit of timing involved, but you can "double dip" on a lapped field: The situation happens when you are about to lap but haven't taken the lap yet when your bell rings for a sprint. You hang off the back of the field for the bell lap and you win the 5 points for the sprint while field gets the bell for their sprint ahead of you. Then you catch the field during their bell lap (+20 points for you), reintegrating the field again (everyone is free to sprint for the 5 points), and if you are a real monster, you get to the front and win their sprint as well for another 5 points.

This is only for a points race. For a scratch race, if you are lapped, you are lapped; your only hope of winning is to get your lap back again. If you lap the field, then you are in the catbird seat for winning the race (unless you subsequently lose the lap due to your effort).

It's a bit unclear for other types of races. For instance, for a miss-and-out, I don't think lapping the field gets you anything at all; in fact, there is incentive just to hang off the back if you are in that position. Other types of races such as point-a-laps etc., I don't think there is any incentive for gaining a lap. These races are usually short enough, though, that riders are rarely in a position to test this theory. Points and scratch races, on the other hand, might go up to 100 laps so there has to be rules for dealing with lapping and lapped riders.

carleton 06-12-13 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spazegun2213 (Post 15734642)
Wait... what? so if you go down a lap you can still sprint for points? How does that work, when the field is on the sprint lap, wouldn't the lapped rider be sprint lap -1... so not able to win points?

All new racers should be required to at least read the rules :)

Go to section 2M (Points Race) here: https://s3.amazonaws.com/USACWeb/for...k-Chapter2.pdf

The entire rule book: http://www.usacycling.org/forms/rule...C-Rulebook.pdf

I'd suggest reading:

Chapter 1 — General Regulations
Chapter 2 — Track Racing
Chapter 8 — Discipline
Appendix 4 — USA Cycling Code of Conduct

Also note:
Quote:

You may request a hard copy of the rule book by emailing membership@usacycling.org.
It's free. Request it and put it in your bathroom and read sections when you have some "idle time" in there :)

carleton 06-12-13 12:34 PM

From the rule book:

Quote:

Any rider who gains a lap on the main field will receive 20 points. Any rider who loses a lap to the main field will lose 20 points.
Quote:

2M3. Gaining Laps.

(a) A rider shall be considered to have lapped the main group upon reaching a position to take shelter behind the main group. (A rider or group of riders shall be considered to have taken shelter behind the main group when the distance between the last rider in the main group and the first rider of the overtaking group is less than 5 meters or 16 feet.)

(b) Riders who break away continue to score points until they have lapped the main group. Once they have lapped the main group, they must sprint with this group to score additional points, even if they catch the group during a sprint lap.

(c) If the riders are strung out so that no main group exists, the chief referee shall determine when a rider or group of riders has passed enough riders to be credited with having gained a lap.

(d) Riders who lose contact with the field, and are then caught by the leaders, may not lead. Riders attempting to gain a lap may not accept assistance from riders who have lost contact with the back of the field. Riders attempting to gain a lap may work together, but no sacrifice of a rider's position to the advantage of another rider shall be allowed.


2M4. Losing Laps.

(a) Riders who lose laps may sprint for points only after being absorbed by the main group prior to the beginning of the sprint lap. A rider may be considered to be absorbed when caught by the lead rider in the main group. Riders may win points regardless of how many laps they have lost.

(b) A rider who gains a lap and then loses contact does not lose the lap until absorbed by the main group.

(c) Riders who fall two or more laps behind and are considered to be out of contention may be withdrawn at the discretion of the Chief Referee.

carleton 06-12-13 12:41 PM

Generally speaking, ATRA adopts USA Cycling's rules for race governance. USA Cycling adopts the UCI's rules for race governance.

There are minor exceptions that I can't recall right now. But, for the most part that's what happens.

The bigger exceptions are the silly rules about equipment. USA Cycling is less strict than UCI and ATRA is less strict than USA Cycling. However, USA Cycling must strictly enforce UCI equipment rules if there is a UCI World Record at stake. This is why at Masters Track Nationals during bike check, the officials will ask you if you think you might set a Masters World Record. If you think you might, they will go over your bike with a fine-toothed comb so that they can confidently certify that your bike met UCI specs if you set the record.

spazegun2213 06-12-13 01:08 PM

Thanks for the info guys.... Clearly today is a virtual monday, because I do remember the -20 point rule... The double dipping is VERY interesting though. If only I had legs like carleton... I'd try to lap the field ;)

carleton 06-12-13 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spazegun2213 (Post 15734874)
If only I had legs like carleton... I'd try to lap the field ;)

Ha! Yeah, using my legs you'd lap the field once...then proceed to roll right off the track and go home.

I've raced points races, shot my load, come off the track, recovered then sat on the bench and cheered my teammates on as they raced another 30 laps. That's how I race points races :D

I did, however, almost lap the field in a 5 lap scratch on a 327M track once. It was epic. I launched from the start of the race. They all scoffed and laughed...till with about 1.5 laps to go, I pulled within 50M of the pack. That was fun :D

spazegun2213 06-12-13 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 15734939)
Ha! Yeah, using my legs you'd lap the field once...then proceed to roll right off the track and go home.

I've raced points races, shot my load, come off the track, recovered then sat on the bench and cheered my teammates on as they raced another 30 laps. That's how I race points races :D

I did, however, almost lap the field in a 5 lap scratch on a 327M track once. It was epic. I launched from the start of the race. They all scoffed and laughed...till with about 1.5 laps to go, I pulled within 50M of the pack. That was fun :D

yea, I'd assume on longer tracks, lapping the field is a lot harder..... but man, nearly made it with 1.5 to go... WOW!

Hida Yanra 06-12-13 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spazegun2213 (Post 15735119)
yea, I'd assume on longer tracks, lapping the field is a lot harder

On our 400m track lapping the field is almost non-existant in anything short of a Madison.
Given the odds against lapping, the racing dynamic in points races and madisons changes quite a lot.

Brian Ratliff 06-12-13 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spazegun2213 (Post 15734874)
Thanks for the info guys.... Clearly today is a virtual monday, because I do remember the -20 point rule... The double dipping is VERY interesting though. If only I had legs like carleton... I'd try to lap the field ;)

My points races tend to go how carleton is describing. Sprinters are weird like that ;). At the Alpenrose Velodrome Challenge last year, I saw our top Oregon sprinter enter the 10 mile scratch race between the preliminary sprints in the morning and the finals in the afternoon. They were giving $5/lap primes; he went off the front from the whistle, collected $30 or $40 and rolled off to the apron with his lunch money when he was caught by the field. For him it was just something to get his legs moving again during a long day.

The other option for sprinters is to hide hide hide until someone tells you the race is over. I've done both strategies; with the latter, I don't even bother tracking the race or looking at the lap card. It turns out something like an epic motor pacing drill.

carleton 06-12-13 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff (Post 15735669)
The other option for sprinters is to hide hide hide until someone tells you the race is over. I've done both strategies; with the latter, I don't even bother tracking the race or looking at the lap card. It turns out something like an epic motor pacing drill.

Yeah, I've had coaches give me that as a training assignment. "Latch on to the back of the breakaway and hang on till they drop you." It's easy for sprinters to catch the wheel, but we don't have the diesel engines to hang on for as long as they can.

It's amazing to see National/World level enduros race like that. Dan Holt (back to back elite points race champ) is a regular at DLV. I watched him take a lap in the 2010 Elite Points Race Championship. In the process he had Dan Harm (TP National champ) on his wheel. Holt dropped Harm like a hot rock...then proceeded to catch the field THEN won the next sprint to boot. Amazing.

queerpunk 06-12-13 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 15734939)
I did, however, almost lap the field in a 5 lap scratch on a 327M track once. It was epic. I launched from the start of the race. They all scoffed and laughed...till with about 1.5 laps to go, I pulled within 50M of the pack. That was fun :D

I saw a video of Graham Obree pursuiting against somebody on a short velodrome - maybe it was like a 160. Obree comes out of the gate in his super measured, traditional-pursuit style. The other dude launches like he got shot out of a cannon. Not the done thing if you're trying to make it the whole 4k, but he damn near caught Obree (which would give him the de facto victory). He came to within about ten meters, and then blew up, went backwards fast, and Obree caught him a handful of laps later.

JMR 06-12-13 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 15736810)
I saw a video of Graham Obree pursuiting against somebody on a short velodrome - maybe it was like a 160. Obree comes out of the gate in his super measured, traditional-pursuit style. The other dude launches like he got shot out of a cannon. Not the done thing if you're trying to make it the whole 4k, but he damn near caught Obree (which would give him the de facto victory). He came to within about ten meters, and then blew up, went backwards fast, and Obree caught him a handful of laps later.

If it was a final, there would be no "de facto" about it... if you catch the other rider you win.

JMR

Hida Yanra 06-12-13 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 15735814)
...Dan Holt <snip> Dan Harm

D. Harm is a good friend of mine - I work on his bikes and help him out when he isn't traveling... he is a VERY fast boy, that would have been impressive to watch.

Hida Yanra 06-12-13 11:56 PM

Well,

1st race: unknown distance, got accidentally pinned by my own teammate and shuffled to the back of the field. I ended up making it back to 3rd wheel, but 100m before I was going to launch (my guess was 11 laps), they rang to bell and I got stuck in the swarm. Oh well.
Successes: got shuffled to back of the field, and moved back up smartly over 3 laps, wasted no energy and got back to the front without panicking.
Failures: Wasn't assertive enough with teammate when we had a mis-communication.

While changing my gear after the first race I realized that wheel had something funny going on. In fact, the rear axle had become almost completely stuck, no wonder I didn't have much kick in the first race. I spent the next 20' trying to fix it, finally fixed it, only to realize that in the struggle to get the axle nuts off, I now didn't have enough threads on the NDS to tighten the axle nuts. Lots of stress & frustration.
Successes: I managed to find cone wrenches (one of the few tools I don't keep in my bag), fix the axle issue, and get through the presenting problem.
Failures: Equipment, I am using a 3rd hand set of wheels - the threading/cones failed, I'm not sure why - I hadn't been playing with them. I'll take it all in to work tomorrow and sort it out.

2nd race: Scratch 12 lap, DNS, no rear wheel.

I'd given up on the night's racing, but gathered myself, sucked my ego up and asked around for a rear wheel until someone had one.
When I 'check out' after big setbacks it is usually the end of the event/day for me, so getting my head back in the game was a big improvement for me.

Put on a cog, got new wheel on the bike, and ate a bit to get ready for the last race of the night.
Also, I had a "natural" energy drink a friend gave me in my track bag... so after getting the gear sorted I downed it 30' before the last race - if I was going to race, I was going to make it interesting for everyone.

3rd race: 4x4 points. With two teammates in the race, one sprinter and two enduros we talked through our strategy, have the sprinter try for the first sprint, then my teammate and I start swinging for the fences. After the neutral lap, I'm in the top three wheels, and I feel a guy start to accelerate from 3-4 wheels behind me. I wind it up as he comes past and am immediately on his wheel. He goes for 3/4 of a lap, and when I look around we have a huge gap. ... well, that certainly wasn't the plan... The other guy is pretty quick, so I figure what the heck, start stomping on the pedals.

We ride for a lap and one guy who won the first two races of the night bridges, two laps later three more guys come up~ there isn't any organization among us for a lap or two until one other guy and I stomp on it a bit, and everyone gets down to business. We now have a 1/2 lap gap and 80% of the firepower in the field... this will be staying away. We ride, my teammate and I get some points in the sprints, and with a couple to go I try to get in position to lead teammate out, but he doesn't notice or respond, and then an attack splits things with 2 to go. I proceed to ride my guts out for two laps, get more points on the line, and end the night happy.
Successes: Followed an attack, ended up driving the break that decided the race. Knew when to let a couple guys in & get slightly more rest instead of burning matches when they weren't needed. Tried to get tactics to work w/ teammate. Had great legs for harder/longer efforts, after the race my legs didn't feel trashed.

Failures: Threshold watts does not a winning sprint make. Didn't have a good sprint a couple times when I needed it, after looking at cadence chart, my gear was too big. Gear failures - I'm not a fan of them. I have a new rear wheel 85% built and a disc 100% ready, simply didn't have them with me and I needed them. That's a failure.

The other guys in the break who beat me have much better legs than I do. I've taken almost 2 full months off the bike, time to take my medicine and get back in shape. Last week was a great training week, this week will be even better. I'm focused, more confident than I have previously been on the track, and have a good threshold base to build on.

Flatballer 06-17-13 07:34 AM

Another Friday night, another dissapointing night. I guess I should be glad I'm making progress, but I'm still slow.

This week was Chariot, Wheelrace (handicap), and Unknown distance. When we got there they announced you could do a Flying lap or a flying 200 if you wanted, but not for points.

I chose the flying lap, since it was chip timed and the flying 200 was hand timed, which makes it kind of pointless with so much error on such a short effort. Only a couple other people chose the flying lap, most people did the 200.

I didn't feel great, coming off a rest week and hadn't done openers the night before because I was being lazy. Flying lap I put in a slow but not awful 18.25. My best ever flying 200 the other week was 14.2 or something (yeah, still slow). Not sure how these equate, and I don't really remember a good 250 time.

Chariot was 3 of us, the Ds. One strong guy, one slow guy (me) and one slower guy. Last time we did chariot I got destroyed at the start and never got back in it, riding a 48x15. This time I decided to try a 48x16 to see if I could get the jump and hold on. I definitely got the jump, but I couldn't hold on. Got passed on the back straight for 2nd. Definitely back to 48x15, and practicing standing starts more. Standing starts are really fun, but really hard to learn. I like them because they're technical.

Wheel race was 8 laps. I was 2nd in line of 7. 10 meters seperation I think. Usually these come together immediately and turn into scratch races. I decided that I would go from the gun and see if I could catch them sleeping. I got clipped in well, got a good start, and overtook the first rider in the first 15 meters or so. Put my head down and kept going. I went out a little hard though and blew up about 4 laps in. I could see I wasn't going to make it, so I sat up and waited for the pack. Sat in and tried to recover but just didn't have anything left. I was at the bottom when the train above me derailed. Woman at front went up to pull off, woman behind her followed, third wheel was overlapped and above and went down. Came flying down track about 6 inches in front of my wheel, without her bike, and landed on the apron. We kind of expected them to neutralize it since she was being tended to in the apron, almost on the blue band, but they didn't. I kind of mailed it in after that for the last couple laps and rolled in 2nd of the 3 men.

Unknown distance he hinted that it was going to be long, and he wasn't lying. Nobody counted, and I didn't ask the ref afterwards, but it was long. Like, 40 laps long or something. There were a few moves early but nothing stuck. Then I was riding on the bottom, train up above on the stayer's line, and the fastest man was coming over the top in a seated attack. I yelled that he was going and I got on the gas. I went hard for a lap and then pulled off, only to find nobody behind me was chasing, they were content to sit in. I was too gassed to chase him by myself, not that I would have caught him anyway, so I just let him lap us. Nothing much to do after that except hang on to the finish, which took forever. 2nd out of 3 again. The third guy was pretty slow and not really in it.

When I was talking to the winner afterwards he said the reason they didn't chase is because they were women, so they were racing each other, not him. Which I should have known, but didn't think about. It's one of those race within a race things, so it was my job to chase him down (possibly with help from the third guy if he could help). Oh well, race and learn. This weekend I actually joined the team of the winner for the rest of the season, so I dunno what it's going to be like once I get my kit. We might have to race each other if it's just the two of us in the Ds. He'll probably be moving up soon, he's strong enough. I don't really have the legs just yet. Maybe towards the end of the season, or in the winter training races.

spazegun2213 06-17-13 10:05 AM

Flatballer, is your D's field men and women? ours is and we race against everyone. But I can understand that 3 people in D's is quite challenging in terms of ability.

My friday night went something like this.

Burnout paceline: good speed, and enough distance to warm me up, and I put in about a 60% effort on the sprint. Nothing huge, as nothing is won here.

6 lap scratch race - 2nd or 3rd, but it was close. Again, I was super far back in the pack when the attacks came. There were 2 pacelines running with 3 to go, and I was in the upper of the two thinking "I don't want to get stuck in sprinters lane." Well the lower paceline picked it up and I was too slow to react until it was to late. I essentially started my attack a 1/2 lap before anyone else, and was able to do well, but not well enough for first.

6 lap point a lap race - One of the regulars went off the front for the first 3 laps and no one chased him. Come lap 4 I said "to heck with this" and chased him down snatching a point with very little margin. I, however, didnt have much left after that. I think I was 4th with how the points ended up, I got a point stolen at the finish line because I could not hold on at the finish. (that regular was then told to move to the C's as this was not the first time he's gone off the front and held it)

18 lap points (every 6) - By this time I realized that I had one maybe two efforts left. Come the first points lap I was in sprinters lane, all the way at the back *sigh* I kicked myself for being there and not realizing what lap it was. Either way, I didnt even bother sprinting, I just watch it all unfold. In another 3 laps it was a Prim lap for a $20 gift certificate to a burger joint. From what everyone else said as soon as it was announced, I was out of my seat putting serious distance between myself and the field. I looked back when I won the prim and I had a 1/2 lap on the field. I thought "maybe you can keep it up and win some points" so I just continued and a good clip. However, I ran out of steam in T-4 within sight of the points lap. The field came by and I managed to jump on a strong wheel and he helped me get back into the pack. I managed to finish middle of the pack on the last lap with 0 points, lol.

Overall it was a great night for racing and I'm realizing I'm getting stronger

Flatballer 06-17-13 10:23 AM

We race together but are scored seperately. They often combine fields. A/B/C often race together and D/W race together. But everything is always scored seperately for points. It's kind of like Who's Line though, the points don't really matter. There's a year long omnium thing, but I don't know that anyone really cares. What everyone actually tries for seems to be the actual win on the track, not just in the standings for their field. The announcer never announces who won the W field out of the D/W, they just announce who won the race. But it certainly seemed like she was content to let him win the overall as long as she won her field.

spazegun2213 06-17-13 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flatballer (Post 15751694)
We race together but are scored seperately. They often combine fields. A/B/C often race together and D/W race together. But everything is always scored seperately for points. It's kind of like Who's Line though, the points don't really matter. There's a year long omnium thing, but I don't know that anyone really cares. What everyone actually tries for seems to be the actual win on the track, not just in the standings for their field. The announcer never announces who won the W field out of the D/W, they just announce who won the race. But it certainly seemed like she was content to let him win the overall as long as she won her field.

interesting, there is an occasional womens race on tuesday nights (when the A's and B's race) but on Fridays everyone races together. Yea, you got the short end of that stick, them being content and you needing to catch him with no help :(

TMonk 06-19-13 10:29 AM

Last Night, a rider (Jackie - Crank Cycing) crashed realllll bad at the velodrome last night (in my race!), like unconscious and ambulance bad. I walked close to the scene and she was clearly knocked out, making snoring/sneezing type noises and very bloody.

I think the rider in front of her moved up track without looking over and swiped her front wheel, causing her to hit the deck on a particularly steep part of the banking. Said rider did the same thing to me on the last lap of the motopace warmup - he moved out of the pole lane without looking up while I was fully ungaged in my sprint about to pass, causing me to veer wayyyyy up track. Careful out there guys.

Keep Jackie in your thoughts all you San Diego people.

enjoi07 06-19-13 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMonk (Post 15759620)
Last Night, a rider (Jackie - Crank Cycing) crashed realllll bad at the velodrome last night (in my race!), like unconscious and ambulance bad. I walked close to the scene and she was clearly knocked out, making snoring/sneezing type noises and very bloody.

I think the rider in front of her moved up track without looking over and swiped her front wheel, causing her to hit the deck on a particularly steep part of the banking. Said rider did the same thing to me on the last lap of the motopace warmup - he moved out of the pole lane without looking up while I was fully ungaged in my sprint about to pass, causing me to veer wayyyyy up track. Careful out there guys.

Keep Jackie in your thoughts all you San Diego people.

Man, I was walking to get a tamale, looked up and saw a rider down, didn't hear a sound at all. There was word in the stands that she was out, even by the time the ambulance came, but no one was sure of the extent...judging by the social media comments things are not looking too well.

Definitely keeping her in thought.

TMonk 06-19-13 04:30 PM

Hate to report this....

R.I.P. Jackie Dunn.

I can't believe **** like this can actually happen, esp. at something as low-key as TNR/ATRA at the SD velodrome. I'm kind of in a numb shock right now.
While I did not know her personally, I am close with a couple girls who rode/raced with her frequently, and had a good conversation with her husband about working and engineering over drinks after TNR a couple weeks back. This is so unreal.


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