Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    Not actually Tmonk TMonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    My Bikes
    caad9, capo (fixed), centurion dave scott 10sp, dolan pre cursa (track)
    Posts
    6,164
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Critique my wheelbuild

    I want some advice on some wheels that I'm trying to build.

    Background:

    Track newbie here. Cat3 crit rider on the road, 145-155 lbs depending on time of year/amount of beer drinking. I'm generally hard on my equipment for a guy my size. I consider myself a decent sprinter on the road and excel in slight inclines/headwinds. Having said that I've learned through recent experience that I am not even close to a real sprinter on the track and get blown out of the water in like a flying 200 by those linebacker lookin' mofos

    My intention for this wheelset is to use them as my go-to track wheels. These wheels will be ridden on the track only and will see no street use except possibly from my car to the track on the sidewalk unless I decide thats a bad idea. They will be used primarily for mass-start endurance races like points and scratch.

    Idea: Low-profile, tubular, highish spoke count, nice loose ball hubs.

    Rims: Velocity Escape 32H
    Nipples: Brass
    Spokes: Straight gauge stainless spokes
    Hubs: Dura Ace high-flange 32H
    Tires: ?

    Please criticize my ideas and offer component suggestions. Additionally I am looking for tire suggestions as well, something that has a nice compromise between durability and speed.

    Thanks

    added in edit: the velodrome will mostly be the outdoor concrete san diego velodrome
    "Your beauty is an aeroplane;
    so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste

  2. #2
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    10,953
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    32h might be overkill.

    I'm a 240lb sprinter making a good amount of torque during standing starts and putting lots of stress on the wheels in the turns during high speed efforts. My training wheels are 32h/36h and they hold up great. I would imagine that being a smaller rider you could use a lighter setup. Maybe 24h/28h or at most 28h/32h.

    Save significant amounts of weight (and cost) by using a lower spoke count.

    For what it's worth, 20h Mavic Ellipse are just fine for me for all efforts and events except standing starts where they are OK, but not as stiff as my 36h training wheel.

  3. #3
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    10,953
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Go with sealed hubs like Formula and others.

    I have the DA hubs on two wheelsets, and they are nice, but a pain when the cone nuts start tightening from all of the wheel changing. This requires periodic checks to make sure it's not happening and cone wrenches to adjust.

  4. #4
    Not actually Tmonk TMonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    My Bikes
    caad9, capo (fixed), centurion dave scott 10sp, dolan pre cursa (track)
    Posts
    6,164
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ^
    good advice. thx.

    maybe ill get DA hubs down the line if/when I feel like building up some race day carbon wheels
    "Your beauty is an aeroplane;
    so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste

  5. #5
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    10,953
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
    ^
    good advice. thx.

    maybe ill get DA hubs down the line if/when I feel like building up some race day carbon wheels
    There is no significant advantage (if any at all) to using loose ball bearing hubs.

    One of the wheesets I'm speaking of is a race day carbon wheelset (DA hubs laced to Zipp 404 rims). Still a pain in the butt. If I rebuild the wheelset, I'd use sealed hubs on those, too.

    Your experience may be different, but that's just what I've noticed from using my two wheelsets and servicing two others for friends. One lady, who wasn't mechanically-inclined, had low flange DA hubs. She gave me her bike to install a chain and do some other minor tweaks. When it took the wheel off and tried to spin the wheel in my fingers, it literally would not spin. The axle turned with the wheel! The cone nuts were super tight and the grease inside was all dried up to boot.

    I disassembled the hub, cleaned, and repacked everything with grease. She was blown away during her next ride. "OH MY GOD!! What did you do?!! My bike is SOOO much faster now!!!" Basically, she was burning 100W (subjective number here) just to overcome the bearing friction.

    This is why sealed bearings were invented. (Well, they may not have been invented for bicycle hubs, but the the technology has been adopted by bicycle hub manufacturers).

    Yes, ball bearings do work just fine, but you have to maintain them.


    Dura Ace axle nuts are nice, though. I buy them separately and use them on my other wheels, too.
    Last edited by carleton; 07-18-12 at 12:33 PM.

  6. #6
    Not actually Tmonk TMonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    My Bikes
    caad9, capo (fixed), centurion dave scott 10sp, dolan pre cursa (track)
    Posts
    6,164
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Why do some people prefer loose ball hubs?

    There is some loss due to friction with a sealed setup, no? Perhaps the efficiency gained with loose hubs is incremental and insignificant.

    I should add that I've never owned non-sealed hubs.
    "Your beauty is an aeroplane;
    so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste

  7. #7
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    10,953
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
    Why do some people prefer loose ball hubs?

    There is some loss due to friction with a sealed setup, no? Perhaps the efficiency gained with loose hubs is incremental and insignificant.

    I should add that I've never owned non-sealed hubs.
    They say it's because you can fine-tune the friction (or lack therof). But, quality (not even high quality) sealed bearings are smooth enough. They are pretty much "Set it and forget it." until it's time to replace them. Then you use a bearing extractor to remove them then press in some new ones.

    I don't want to make it seem like DA hubs are bad. They aren't. They are pretty good. They just require basic maintenance. It's just that sealed bearings require much less of that.

    If I were building wheels from scratch, I'd use sealed. Actually, I did have a clincher training wheel built last winter and I used a Velocity "Aero" rim with an All City (re-branded Formula) hub.

  8. #8
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    10,953
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    The best track hubs I've ever used (or seen for that matter):


    http://www.zipp.com/technologies/hub/track-hubs.php

    One great feature of these, besides being awesome and beautiful and awesome, is that you can remove the axle when packing the wheels for travel! Most (if not all) cycling wheel cases/bags are made for road wheels and they expect you to remove the axles. Well, most track hubs do not have removable axles. But these do. Just take off the nut, grip nut, and spacer then pop the axle with a rubber mallet (or heel of your sneaker) and the axle pops out the other side.

    Unfortunately, for me, the spoke counts aren't high enough for use on thin training wheel rims. They are designed for use on 404s and 808s, where you can make a strong wheel with low spoke counts because the spokes are much shorter and don't twist as much as long spokes will.
    Last edited by carleton; 07-18-12 at 02:06 PM.

  9. #9
    Not actually Tmonk TMonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    My Bikes
    caad9, capo (fixed), centurion dave scott 10sp, dolan pre cursa (track)
    Posts
    6,164
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    damn those things are purdy...

    purdy expensive too
    "Your beauty is an aeroplane;
    so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste

  10. #10
    Italian Stallion mcafiero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Denver
    My Bikes
    2010 Cannondale Supersix; Dolan Df3; 1980's GIOS Pista;
    Posts
    449
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
    linebacker lookin' mofos
    Hey, I resemble this remark! I also have a set of Mavic Ellipse and loved them, but my hub just loosened up on my front wheel and going into turn three of my 200, shot me out into the stayers line and it felt like I had a flat tire. But other than that, I have always loved my Ellipse's.
    "Go out hard. When it hurts... speed up"
    I have a grande hairy chest and I am of Italian descent.
    2010 Cannondale Supersix
    2011 Dolan DF3

  11. #11
    Not actually Tmonk TMonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    My Bikes
    caad9, capo (fixed), centurion dave scott 10sp, dolan pre cursa (track)
    Posts
    6,164
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ya ive been considering ellipses...

    my thought process is that if I can get a set of sweet low-profile alu tubular rims laced to decent hubs at less than or equal to the cost of ellipses than that's what I would prefer.
    "Your beauty is an aeroplane;
    so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste

  12. #12
    Not actually Tmonk TMonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    My Bikes
    caad9, capo (fixed), centurion dave scott 10sp, dolan pre cursa (track)
    Posts
    6,164
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    and RE: linebackers...

    I have no doubt that you would school me each and every time in a sprint on the track, but at the end of of a 0.7mi lap crit with 60+ feet of elevation per lap, maybe not
    "Your beauty is an aeroplane;
    so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,454
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    For outdoor concrete tracks (actually all my outdoor race tires including road TT's and RR's) - I use Vitorria Evo CX tires.
    http://climbinglama.blogspot.com.au

  14. #14
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    10,953
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mcafiero View Post
    Hey, I resemble this remark! I also have a set of Mavic Ellipse and loved them, but my hub just loosened up on my front wheel and going into turn three of my 200, shot me out into the stayers line and it felt like I had a flat tire. But other than that, I have always loved my Ellipse's.
    You should have gotten a tool to adjust your bearings with your Mavic wheels. It functions the same way that a cone wrench does on old school hubs.



    The improvement of the Mavic hubs over old-school DA type hubs is that installing and removing the wheel doesn't affect the hub adjustment (cone nuts). They are separate. If I remember correctly, you can even adjust the bearings without removing the wheel.
    Last edited by carleton; 07-19-12 at 12:37 AM.

  15. #15
    Senior Member chas58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,022
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    My track wheels (Ellipse, American Classic, Easton) are 20F, 24R. Interestingly doing down wind runs (road) my road wheels make a lot of whooshing noise, but the track wheels (with flat spokes) are just silent. That is what I would be aiming for (along with adequate stiffness)

    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    32h might be overkill.

    I'm a 240lb sprinter making a good amount of torque during standing starts and putting lots of stress on the wheels in the turns during high speed efforts. My training wheels are 32h/36h and they hold up great. I would imagine that being a smaller rider you could use a lighter setup. Maybe 24h/28h or at most 28h/32h.

    Save significant amounts of weight (and cost) by using a lower spoke count.

    For what it's worth, 20h Mavic Ellipse are just fine for me for all efforts and events except standing starts where they are OK, but not as stiff as my 36h training wheel.

  16. #16
    Italian Stallion mcafiero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Denver
    My Bikes
    2010 Cannondale Supersix; Dolan Df3; 1980's GIOS Pista;
    Posts
    449
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    You should have gotten a tool to adjust your bearings with your Mavic wheels. It functions the same way that a cone wrench does on old school hubs.



    The improvement of the Mavic hubs over old-school DA type hubs is that installing and removing the wheel doesn't affect the hub adjustment (cone nuts). They are separate. If I remember correctly, you can even adjust the bearings without removing the wheel.
    Hmmm never got that tool.
    "Go out hard. When it hurts... speed up"
    I have a grande hairy chest and I am of Italian descent.
    2010 Cannondale Supersix
    2011 Dolan DF3

  17. #17
    Not actually Tmonk TMonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    My Bikes
    caad9, capo (fixed), centurion dave scott 10sp, dolan pre cursa (track)
    Posts
    6,164
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    so im thinking either 28/28 or 24/28h, brass nipples, regular spokes, velocity escapes, and some...

    formulas? any reason why I should consider a more expensive sealed bearing hub?
    "Your beauty is an aeroplane;
    so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste

  18. #18
    Senior Member chas58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,022
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Formulas are fine (like Carleton has said)

    I would consider flat spokes. They cut a very low profile through the air. Just think, when you are running at 35mph, the top of your wheel is actually going 70mph (and the bottom 0MPH if you are not sliding). Aero of those spokes cutting through the wind is going to make a difference at those speeds. Like I said, going down wind I can hear the spokes on my commuter rims, but the spokes on the track rims are just silent at speed. That sound is turbulence and is costing you power.

    Quote Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
    so im thinking either 28/28 or 24/28h, brass nipples, regular spokes, velocity escapes, and some...

    formulas? any reason why I should consider a more expensive sealed bearing hub?

  19. #19
    Not actually Tmonk TMonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    My Bikes
    caad9, capo (fixed), centurion dave scott 10sp, dolan pre cursa (track)
    Posts
    6,164
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ^
    Good idea.

    I used to own some road wheels with sapim cx rays. Will those be appropriate for track use?

    The wheels were simple novatechs (10sp shimano freehub) laced to kinlin xr-270s w rays. Loved those things.
    "Your beauty is an aeroplane;
    so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •