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  1. #1
    Senior Member Not the Slowest's Avatar
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    Different Clinchers for the Track

    Hi folks.
    I currently am riding a FELT TK3 with the original Felt TkR-4 30mm deep aluminum aero track rims.

    I'm thinking of swapping off the stock Vittoria Rubino Slick foldable 700cX23, with a max 125 PSI
    and using Conti Supersonics. Of course I could not tell you if the Vittoria's are good or bad as this is my first track bike. On the road I can define the feel of asome tires
    and of course the bike.

    The question is whether I could safely use the 700 x 20 with a max 170 PSI or go to
    the 700 x 23 with a max 145. I understood that some rims may not be designed for higher PSI.

    As a a note I am about 210 lbs.

    Of course I could get other clincher or tubular wheels but thought this was as good as any place to start.

    Thoughts or suggestions
    Robert
    Not The Slowest, Never The Fastest, even Solo

  2. #2
    Senior Member xengravity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not the Slowest View Post
    Hi folks.
    I currently am riding a FELT TK3 with the original Felt TkR-4 30mm deep aluminum aero track rims.

    I'm thinking of swapping off the stock Vittoria Rubino Slick foldable 700cX23, with a max 125 PSI
    and using Conti Supersonics. Of course I could not tell you if the Vittoria's are good or bad as this is my first track bike. On the road I can define the feel of asome tires
    and of course the bike.

    The question is whether I could safely use the 700 x 20 with a max 170 PSI or go to
    the 700 x 23 with a max 145. I understood that some rims may not be designed for higher PSI.

    As a a note I am about 210 lbs.

    Of course I could get other clincher or tubular wheels but thought this was as good as any place to start.

    Thoughts or suggestions
    Contact the manufacturer and ask if there are any limitations in regards to max pressure.

  3. #3
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    My suggestion is to go with 23c at 140PSI. I weigh more than 210 and use them at 140psi. I have a 23c Supersonic on my rear clincher training wheel right now.

    The 20c is really narrow. I rode one for one track session and hated it.

    The Supersonic is a great tire, but it's a "race tire" so it's fast, thin, and light. It won't last as long as other tires. You can find some high pressure tires that have more rubber on them.

    Look into "Open Tubular" type tires or the Vredstein brand to name a few options.

  4. #4
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Also, I remember Vittoria making a 320tpi tire that goes up to 150-160psi, too.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Not the Slowest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xengravity View Post
    Contact the manufacturer and ask if there are any limitations in regards to max pressure.
    I dd but no answer from them
    Robert
    Not The Slowest, Never The Fastest, even Solo

  6. #6
    Senior Member Not the Slowest's Avatar
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    Thanks, I did hear that they will not last that long but up here the season is shorter than other parts of the country so I do not expect more than a season. Then again I race once a week, sometimes twice.
    Robert
    Not The Slowest, Never The Fastest, even Solo

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not the Slowest View Post
    Thanks, I did hear that they will not last that long but up here the season is shorter than other parts of the country so I do not expect more than a season. Then again I race once a week, sometimes twice.
    Sounds like you've already made up your mind, but here goes anyway...

    I bought them because, at the time, they were the only tires that I knew of that would go over 120psi. Plus they were $30 each on Amazon that day. Win-Win.

    Since then I bought a Vredstein Tri Comp. It's a great training/racing tire for an outdoor track that goes up to 160psi. Lots of rubber on it. I loaned it out and had the Supersonic laying around so that's why it's on that wheel now. If I had to buy a new tire today, it would be something else.

    There are many others options now with more rubber. I say look around and choose one of those. In my estimation, the Supersonic was designed as a light "race day" tire for triathletes who use clinchers.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Not the Slowest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Sounds like you've already made up your mind, but here goes anyway...

    I bought them because, at the time, they were the only tires that I knew of that would go over 120psi. Plus they were $30 each on Amazon that day. Win-Win.

    Since then I bought a Vredstein Tri Comp. It's a great training/racing tire for an outdoor track that goes up to 160psi. Lots of rubber on it. I loaned it out and had the Supersonic laying around so that's why it's on that wheel now. If I had to buy a new tire today, it would be something else.

    There are many others options now with more rubber. I say look around and choose one of those. In my estimation, the Supersonic was designed as a light "race day" tire for triathletes who use clinchers.
    Actually I did not make up my mind so I am all ears open wide and listening. I have found only great suggestions and comments here.
    My comment on how long they last were just from commnets made on review sites.
    I race at Kissena an outdoor venue so I'm all game for saving a few bucks and giving me a bit of an edge.

    Thanks Robert

    Who knows, by the time spring rolls in I may find some other wheels. In the meantime I will try to get faster and stronger. I haven't run into too many people who want to get slower and weaker
    Robert
    Not The Slowest, Never The Fastest, even Solo

  9. #9
    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    Supersonics aren't *that* thin. I got some for my ellipses (which are training only wheels) and they've lasted through a lot of track time and a lot of road and off-road time. My girlfriend uses the ellipses when she's riding her fixed gear on the road, and that frequently includes fire roads. They've been holding up fine for several thousand miles, I don't think either of us has ever gotten a flat on them.

    The rim is probably your big limiting factor-- even the ellipse rims, which are among the beefiest track rims I've seen, are only rated to 145 or 150 or something. There's not a big advantage to super high pressures for clinchers, and some disdvantage- at high pressures you're going to increase your chance of blowing the bead off the rim going through a turn fast (seen it happen). You get a brief bead lift, the tube peeks out, explodes, then the bead sets back in place while you slide on the apron.

    20 mm tires are only good for TTs. If you're riding a track with any banking at all you want something like a 23 and a round cross section.
    Track - the other off-road
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  10. #10
    what. kyle!'s Avatar
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    Yeah people get way too into the idea of having the thinnest tire possible on the track. Leave that to the pros or big race days and keep it comfy for the weekly stuff.

    I raced nothing but 19/20's until this year when I put some 23 supersonics on my ellipses. So good. I even lowered my psi to 120 max from my usual 130/135. Even better as our track is anything but smooth lately. So I'll echo the duck's sentiment. Supersonics, while light and thin, are definitely beefy enough for weekly racing.

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    I have a '12 TK3 and have been using the stock Vittoria Rubino Slicks w/o any issues. Of course, they're my first track use tire so I have nothing to compare them to. I'd like to pick up a set of the SuperSonics as I've heard nothing but great things about them. My big plan is to use the stock wheels for training and get a set of tubulars for racing.
    "I kick my own arse today, so I can kick yours race day." - unknown UK track sprinter

  12. #12
    JMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
    The rim is probably your big limiting factor-- even the ellipse rims, which are among the beefiest track rims I've seen, are only rated to 145 or 150 or something. There's not a big advantage to super high pressures for clinchers, and some disdvantage- at high pressures you're going to increase your chance of blowing the bead off the rim going through a turn fast (seen it happen). You get a brief bead lift, the tube peeks out, explodes, then the bead sets back in place while you slide on the apron.
    +1

    I wouldn't even try running more than 145 PSI in a clincher... it's just asking for a rim failure IMO.

    I would challenge that you would be any faster on 175 PSI than 145 anyway... maybe on an indoor board track, but that's it.

    JMR

  13. #13
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    On a related note, I contacted Velocity about maximum tire pressure for their rims. They responded that I could go as high as the tire stated with no problem.

  14. #14
    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMR View Post
    I would challenge that you would be any faster on 175 PSI than 145 anyway... maybe on an indoor board track, but that's it.
    Clinchers already generally have lower rolling resistance at ~120 psi than most tubulars at ~170 psi (the glue can be very lossy). On anything but perfect concrete or a really smooth indoor track higher pressure is going to start being counterproductive because your tire won't flex enough to stay in contact with the track as you go over all the small features.
    Track - the other off-road
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  15. #15
    JMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    On a related note, I contacted Velocity about maximum tire pressure for their rims. They responded that I could go as high as the tire stated with no problem.
    Really? I emailed Velocity here in Australia to enquire about the max pressure I could run on Deep-V rims and was told 120PSI.

    Here is the email conversation:

    Hello J,
    Some go higher but we don`t recommend it.
    regards
    albert
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:
    To:
    Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 2:21 PM
    Subject: RE: max tyre pressure on 700c Deep V rim

    Thanks Albert… even on track? (no heat into the rims from braking)

    Kind regards,

    JMR


    From: Albert [mailto:albert]
    Sent: Monday, 5 March 2012 2:17 PM
    To: JMR
    Subject: Re: max tyre pressure on 700c Deep V rim

    Hello J
    120 max
    regards
    albert
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:
    To: info@velocitywheels
    Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 2:02 PM
    Subject: max tyre pressure on 700c Deep V rim

    Hi,

    Just hoping you could tell me what the maximum tyre pressure I can run using a Velocity Deep V rim is?

    Thanks.

    Kind regards,

    JMR
    Last edited by JMR; 09-26-12 at 10:33 PM.

  16. #16
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Hmmm... well, this is what I was told by a guy named Adam from Velocity USA:

    "Carleton

    For tire pressure we would default to the max pressure listed on the tire as the appropriate gauge for pressure limits due to the fact that the tire will give out long before the rim would."

    Great. Who is right?

  17. #17
    Senior Member Not the Slowest's Avatar
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    Great....Now what
    Robert
    Not The Slowest, Never The Fastest, even Solo

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not the Slowest View Post
    Great....Now what
    Well, I'm 240+ lbs and I've been using high pressure (140-160psi) in my clinchers (Deep V and Mavic Ellipse) consistently on steep-ish tracks for a long time. I use tubular most of the time. But, when my tubular wheels are flat (due to punctures) I use my clinchers till I get the tubulars repaired.

    I've only had one blowout with a clincher and that happened immediately when I got on the track (like 20 meters). I suspect that was because the bead wasn't set right. It was a Conti GP 4000 tire rated for 120psi and I pumped it to 130psi. I didn't mount the tire myself, the mechanic at a shop did. I should have checked his work. I count that as user error on my part for not maintaining my equipment myself.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Not the Slowest's Avatar
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    Sounds as if I should be safe especialy since my track is no where near deep banked.
    Thanks, sounds like this should work then. In the meantime I'll work on my Speed and Strength and maybe a nice set of tubulars will fall in my lap creating an entire new series of questions.

    Rob

    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Well, I'm 240+ lbs and I've been using high pressure (140-160psi) in my clinchers (Deep V and Mavic Ellipse) consistently on steep-ish tracks for a long time. I use tubular most of the time. But, when my tubular wheels are flat (due to punctures) I use my clinchers till I get the tubulars repaired.

    I've only had one blowout with a clincher and that happened immediately when I got on the track (like 20 meters). I suspect that was because the bead wasn't set right. It was a Conti GP 4000 tire rated for 120psi and I pumped it to 130psi. I didn't mount the tire myself, the mechanic at a shop did. I should have checked his work. I count that as user error on my part for not maintaining my equipment myself.
    Robert
    Not The Slowest, Never The Fastest, even Solo

  20. #20
    Senior Member Not the Slowest's Avatar
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    Which particular model of Tri Comp did you use as I found several with high PSI.
    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Sounds like you've already made up your mind, but here goes anyway...

    I bought them because, at the time, they were the only tires that I knew of that would go over 120psi. Plus they were $30 each on Amazon that day. Win-Win.

    Since then I bought a Vredstein Tri Comp. It's a great training/racing tire for an outdoor track that goes up to 160psi. Lots of rubber on it. I loaned it out and had the Supersonic laying around so that's why it's on that wheel now. If I had to buy a new tire today, it would be something else.

    There are many others options now with more rubber. I say look around and choose one of those. In my estimation, the Supersonic was designed as a light "race day" tire for triathletes who use clinchers.
    Robert
    Not The Slowest, Never The Fastest, even Solo

  21. #21
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not the Slowest View Post
    Which particular model of Tri Comp did you use as I found several with high PSI.
    I can't recall and I don't have the tire right now (still loaned out).

    Don't over-think this.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Not the Slowest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post

    Don't over-think this.
    TOO late, just kidding. I am sure the current tires on my bike are fine, but we all look for an edge.
    As big(ger) guys we all may be a bit slower getting out of the gate, but once the train is rolling get out of the waaaaaay.
    Robert
    Not The Slowest, Never The Fastest, even Solo

  23. #23
    Senior Member chas58's Avatar
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    Velocity does not have any rating on their rims. Velocity told me that if I ran a continental supersonic 700x20c at 170 psi, I should be fine.

    Ellipse has a specific pressure rating (145psi ) and rider weight limit (for the newer version).

    A 20mm tire is going to have more sidewall flex and a higher rolling resistance unless you really put a lot of air in it. You can look at the famous tire pressure drop chart and article (http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/TireDrop.pdf) but that 20mm tire is going to need over 150psi to match the % tire pressure drop of a 23mm tire at 130psi.

    I think the only real advantage between 20 and 23 mm clincher might be aero, but how much is that really worth.

    But on the subject, I have been riding on the road the new Michelin pro4. It has an interesting pointy profile that
    1) makes it more aero
    2) gives it a lot wider rubber patch on turns - which could be good for slower riding on a steep velodrome.

    It does seem to have a smoother ride too, which would be a benefit for those of us on outdoor tracks. Food for thought...






    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Hmmm... well, this is what I was told by a guy named Adam from Velocity USA:

    "Carleton

    For tire pressure we would default to the max pressure listed on the tire as the appropriate gauge for pressure limits due to the fact that the tire will give out long before the rim would."

    Great. Who is right?

  24. #24
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not the Slowest View Post
    TOO late, just kidding. I am sure the current tires on my bike are fine, but we all look for an edge.
    As big(ger) guys we all may be a bit slower getting out of the gate, but once the train is rolling get out of the waaaaaay.
    Ummm...no one at DLV can beat me out of the gate (seriously)

  25. #25
    JMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Well, I'm 240+ lbs and I've been using high pressure (140-160psi) in my clinchers (Deep V and Mavic Ellipse) consistently on steep-ish tracks for a long time. I use tubular most of the time. But, when my tubular wheels are flat (due to punctures) I use my clinchers till I get the tubulars repaired.

    I've only had one blowout with a clincher and that happened immediately when I got on the track (like 20 meters). I suspect that was because the bead wasn't set right. It was a Conti GP 4000 tire rated for 120psi and I pumped it to 130psi. I didn't mount the tire myself, the mechanic at a shop did. I should have checked his work. I count that as user error on my part for not maintaining my equipment myself.
    I did think that 120psi seemed pretty low... especially on a track rim (no heat from braking), also they are a solid looking rim and not exactly lightweight!

    I think I am going to start running 145 in them.

    JMR

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