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  1. #26
    Senior Member TrackMonkey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lew. View Post
    There was a mention to enduros that lift, wouldn't this be the reverse of developing their efficient and typically weaker muscles?
    Weight training shouldn't have a negative impact on enduro guys if done correctly (i.e. in moderation). We don't have weaker/efficient and stronger/inefficient muscles, they are all capable of being strong or efficient. Muscle fiber type plays a big role, Type 1s or so-called slow-twitch fibers generally being more efficient at exerting a small force over a longer period of time. Type 2s or fast twitch are better at exerting a lot of force quite quickly. More sprinty enduro guys might like to have both muscle fiber types well-trained and conditioned. Muscle contains 'intermediate' fibers that are capable of doing both of these tasks reasonably well, and evidence suggests that sometimes focusing more on one type of training has them shift over to be better at that task, for example long distance rides would make these fibers more endurance-orientated.

    Long story short, weight training can't really hurt an enduro's training, unless it's so intense that it hampers all the other training they need to do. I like to think of having quite a bit of strength as just another tool I can use to be successful in races.

  2. #27
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Jaytron, I'm cat 5 and probably always will be as I only do sprint events. The cat 3 rule is not necessarily hard and fast.
    Don't listen to this guy

    He has state and national medals. He just hasn't applied for his upgrades. He can easily be a 3 and good enough to hang with 2s
    Last edited by carleton; 02-12-13 at 10:12 PM.

  3. #28
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    The damn barbells are always taken when I want to do squats. Are there any cons to doing dumbbell squats instead? I've tried non-weighted squats on one of the little balance balls too (no idea what the hell they're called). I always do on leg presses (for some reason I thought one leg> two leg.. maybe to practice stability), and lunges (with dumbbells)
    Last season I didn't do squats. Only leg press and single leg press. My back was happy about that

    I say back squat, front squat, leg press, and/or single leg press. Your choice. Just commit to progressing every week.

  4. #29
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Re enduros lifting:

    I've seen some racers with HUGE legs racing NRC crits. Huge. Those guys lift.

    The #1 complaint is from traditional road racers who don't want to add mass that they have to carry up hills/mountains. Endurance track and road crit racers lift.

  5. #30
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    I believe the biggest reason enduros like myself don't lift is benefit vs time. Easy enough for a sprinter to fit in weights sessions is that they aren't riding alot of hours as it isn't neccessary.

    I train comparatively low km compared to other road / enduro track riders I know due to many factors - work, family etc. So choosing between a specific on bike interval session or lifting weights is an easy one.

    Having said that I am contemplating some additional upper body work and weight bearing exercise for general health as I age on top of core work.
    http://climbinglama.blogspot.com.au

  6. #31
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    I'm going to ease into my 3 gym days a week. I went for a ride today and my legs had nothing. I probably need an off day or two...

    How many off days do you guys take a week?
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  7. #32
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    I'm going to ease into my 3 gym days a week. I went for a ride today and my legs had nothing. I probably need an off day or two...

    How many off days do you guys take a week?
    Most people have at least one day per week off. I've had programs that had me off 2x a week during the winter.

    The key is to not plan strenuous activity (standing starts, sprinting, flying 200M, etc...) on days after a long road ride. There will be no glycogen in the legs. Generally do strength/power day, endurance/fatburn day, then rest day.

    If you do, let's say, standing starts the day after a 3 hour group ride, you'll feel like crap. Do the starts on day 1, hang in the back (or do the ride solo) for 3 hrs the next day, then eat and rest on the 3rd day.

    That's from a sprint point of view. I'm sure that enduros will have a much different approach.

  8. #33
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Most people have at least one day per week off. I've had programs that had me off 2x a week during the winter.

    The key is to not plan strenuous activity (standing starts, sprinting, flying 200M, etc...) on days after a long road ride. There will be no glycogen in the legs. Generally do strength/power day, endurance/fatburn day, then rest day.

    If you do, let's say, standing starts the day after a 3 hour group ride, you'll feel like crap. Do the starts on day 1, hang in the back (or do the ride solo) for 3 hrs the next day, then eat and rest on the 3rd day.

    That's from a sprint point of view. I'm sure that enduros will have a much different approach.
    Sweet, that's what I was leaning towards doing.

    After a pursuit training session on Sunday (lots of just flying 500's w.o exchanges, some 2ks with half lap exchanges) I tried weights on Monday. Then Tuesday I tried to do a recovery ride, but even that felt like my legs weren't up to it. Probably time for a day off. Thanks for all the tips Carleton and everyone else, you guys have been a huge help.
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  9. #34
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    Thanks Carleton for the weight factor, that enduros don't have to carry it up hills if they're track dedicated... Hadn't considered that as I mainly do road events and only getting into track.

  10. #35
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    Jaytron,

    I think it's fair to say that most enthusiastic amateur bike racers tend towards over-training than not. I've certainly been guilty of this many times myself. When you throw weights into the mix even more so. Weight training that is hard enough to be effective is really stressful for the body. As Carleton says, it's pointless to try a hard workout the day after a serious gym session. Your body needs to recover.

    I've been told by those much more knowledgeable than I that the proper order of intensities should go from highest to lowest chronologically in a weekly cycle. That is, when you're freshest do speed/explosive work, next strength/power, finally endurance. Don't try to do sprints the day after a 60 mile tempo road ride. How you work weights into your weekly schedule is a bit of a balancing act.

    Carleton recommends three gym days per week in the off-season, and I think for younger riders with minimal time commitments this is probably right. With a full time job and a kid, I can only do two per week, but I'm finding the extra recovery time this affords works better for me in my situation.

    My weekly schedule right now is something like this:

    Mon- off or roller/trainer warm-up ride
    Tues- ride road bike to work (easy)
    Weds- AM 100m jumps in 82" gear or stair bounding
    PM gym, back squat, press
    Thurs- ride road bike to work
    Fri- AM starts in 82" gear
    PM gym, front squat, chin-ups, deadlift
    Sat- ride road bike to work
    Sun- track workout

    This is only three real training days per week. Notice how any day with serious training is followed by a day with just a recovery ride. This is a sprinter-type plan, and enduros would obviously do more threshold and interval type stuff, but the general flow is probably pretty adaptable.

    Just remember that the training/stress provides the impetus for the training adaptation, but the adaptation does not occur there. It happens during the rest/recovery phase. If you train even so-so hard every day, you will see short term gains starting from a beginner level, but will quickly plateau as you've not allowed sufficient time for recovery. Believe me, I've been there! The answer is usually not "more training".
    Last edited by Baby Puke; 02-13-13 at 12:50 PM.

  11. #36
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Yes!

    And most weight training programs (like Starting Strength) don't take into account that you are riding/racing another 2-3 days/week.

  12. #37
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    You guys are awesome.

    Baby Puke, I need to come out to an advanced session to thank you in person sometime. Carleton, ATL is a bit far for me to do that. Hahaha I took a day completely off the bike today to kinda let my legs settle into the new routine.
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  13. #38
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    maybe i should get my butt to the gym with all this lifting talk...

  14. #39
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    Right now I'm spending 3-4 days in the gym but am going to cut that back and spending more time on the rollers. Going to start doing track workouts on the weekend. This will be my first full season of cycling. All this talk is really helping give me ideas. I like the fact that Carleton mentioned not trying to peak multiple times. And at this phase and newness to the sport I just want to keep riding and learn to race.
    "I kick my own arse today, so I can kick yours race day." - unknown UK track sprinter

  15. #40
    Member Gloomy's Avatar
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    Just want to check in and say thanks for all the very informative tips, it's been a huge help.

  16. #41
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    You guys are awesome.

    Baby Puke, I need to come out to an advanced session to thank you in person sometime. Carleton, ATL is a bit far for me to do that. Hahaha I took a day completely off the bike today to kinda let my legs settle into the new routine.
    I'm in SoCal now. I'll be in the Bay Area on Friday, on the way to Portland. Moving there for work

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantani98 View Post
    Right now I'm spending 3-4 days in the gym but am going to cut that back and spending more time on the rollers. Going to start doing track workouts on the weekend. This will be my first full season of cycling. All this talk is really helping give me ideas. I like the fact that Carleton mentioned not trying to peak multiple times. And at this phase and newness to the sport I just want to keep riding and learn to race.
    As one gym-nut Masters World Champ sprinter told me, "Lifting is fun, but you are a cyclist first."

    Lifting weights teaches our muscles to move slowly in a straight line. This is why every structured program that I've used had me on the rollers or spin bike after every gym session.

    As I've mentioned on another forum: Don't make the Squat the end-all-be-all of your Sprint training. The squat trains the first few pedal strokes of your standing start. Roughly 8". After that, there comes power, endurance, fluidity, then pain management

  17. #42
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I'm in SoCal now. I'll be in the Bay Area on Friday, on the way to Portland. Moving there for work



    As one gym-nut Masters World Champ sprinter told me, "Lifting is fun, but you are a cyclist first."

    Lifting weights teaches our muscles to move slowly in a straight line. This is why every structured program that I've used had me on the rollers or spin bike after every gym session.

    As I've mentioned on another forum: Don't make the Squat the end-all-be-all of your Sprint training. The squat trains the first few pedal strokes of your standing start. Roughly 8". After that, there comes power, endurance, fluidity, then pain management
    Hey, some of the BFSSFG guys are doing a fixed metric on Sunday with me. Would you want to join? Will you still be in the area?

    If not, I'm going out to grab some brews on Friday night with some buddies, you're welcome to join too!
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  18. #43
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Hey, some of the BFSSFG guys are doing a fixed metric on Sunday with me. Would you want to join? Will you still be in the area?

    If not, I'm going out to grab some brews on Friday night with some buddies, you're welcome to join too!
    Thanks for the kind offer! But, I'm just passing through. Gonna stop whenever we get tired of driving, sleep, then get up and finish the drive to Portland. Not much time for fun stuff, unfortunately.

  19. #44
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    Glad to have you on the west coast, Carleton! Any plans to make it to Hellyer this season? Hellyer Velodrome Challenge will have money...

  20. #45
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Thanks for the kind offer! But, I'm just passing through. Gonna stop whenever we get tired of driving, sleep, then get up and finish the drive to Portland. Not much time for fun stuff, unfortunately.
    No problem! Maybe next time you're around. Is there a velodrome in Portland?
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  21. #46
    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
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    A snapshot of the low end list of things I like doing bike related best to worst:

    riding in a blizzard
    Rollers and trainer days
    walking 20 miles after a series of flats
    lifting
    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

  22. #47
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Glad to have you on the west coast, Carleton! Any plans to make it to Hellyer this season? Hellyer Velodrome Challenge will have money...
    Ha! I'll be there and yeah, I'm glad to be on the West Coast, too. I told my boss that if I'm going from 100% work remotely to working in the office that he'd have to give me freedom to travel and race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    No problem! Maybe next time you're around. Is there a velodrome in Portland?
    Next time for sure.

    Yeah, there is Alpenrose velodrome in Portland.

    http://obra.org/track

  23. #48
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Generally, sprinters lift 3x a week during the off season and 2x a week during the season. Basically trading a lifting day for a race day. Most people race 1x a week.

    Enduros that lift, generally lift 1-2x a week in the off season and 0-1x/week when the season starts for the same reason.
    I find this a valuable topic, so I'm reviving the thread in hopes of more insights. Even without lifting, finding the precise balance of training load is a never-ending quest. Of course made easier with quantitative data (TSS, CTL), but there's still an art to the science.

    Now add in lifting (which, as mentioned in other threads, is much harder to quantify), and it becomes quite a delicate balancing act. I am doing squats for the first time this off-season -- as much for non-cycling reasons as anything (just incredible all-around exercise) but I'm big on self-experimentation and given how enlightening my first couple years of track racing were with regards to power/strength profile, I'm extremely curious to play the weights card, even as a 160lb enduro. And I've never been hung up on labels at all, anyway.

    Virtually all of the literature/discussion around lifting for cyclists is sprinter specific, so I appreciate Carleton's anecdote above. As an enduro, my general plan has been to squat 3x/week as I work through the novice arc (various tendons and ligaments had further to go than the muscles). And then cut back to 2x/week as I ramp up intensity coming out of off season. And 0-1x during a few key tapers.

  24. #49
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    i will speak to this- but i will preface my response with a warning that most people think my program is wack!

    Im a Sprinter and I lift 3 days a week 48-weeks a year, heavy.

    in my experience, there is an adaption period- where you get used to operating with a much elevated level of fatigue in your legs. Once I adapted to this high level of fatigue- on bike training level goes back to where it was before the heavy lifting.. basically you figure out how to train hard and be fast when you are tired..
    the 3rd phase is in the taper/peak. For me the weight work is an excellent, highly measurable metric of volume to cut when its time to peak for a key event... the biggest learning curve for me was just when to cut the weights pre-comp- and through some trial and error and some not so great race days, and some great ones, ive figured out i function better when i cut weights out relatively close to my big events..
    I think its very personal athlete to athlete.. figuring out what works for you is a major part of the battle.. and i have realized that i am a highly Volume Dependent Athlete..

    as for analyzing TSS- ive begun quantifying weight training with a manually entered TSS number in Golden Cheetah.. we'll see how it works and how it compares to my Fitness/Freshness numbers on Strava- which is only based on bike workouts..
    Last edited by Quinn8it; 12-13-13 at 10:09 AM.

  25. #50
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    i would love to lift but i'd rather do a 2-3 hour road ride. i feel that's more beneficial to me. as i'm wrapping up my first year of riding a bike, i feel my lack of conditioning played a major roll in my not so stellar first year. maybe next off season i'll try and incorporate some lifting.

    i would like to increase my overall sprint speed. would lifting actually do that?

    my legs look like two churro sticks.


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