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-   -   500M TT: Track Bike or Road Bike Faster? (http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/882900-500m-tt-track-bike-road-bike-faster.html)

carleton 04-12-13 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Broon (Post 15503968)
I asked a coach of mine named Gillian what she thought. She's a total badass at standing starts, having won the 500m at elite worlds, as well as killing it at the team pursuit.


She said that anyone with significant track experience would be faster on a track bike. She's pretty much the fastest standing starter I know, I'd be inclined to believe it.

That said, I've always wondered if it would be possible to rig an internally geared hub fixed, and then run a bar-end shifter to controll the speed. I feel like that would be faster, if you insert it into a track bike.

For a 25m ride, I'd go with a small(er) gear, based only on the fact that I'll do super-informal unsanctioned 1/4 mile drag races on the street, and we get some BMX/Dirt Jump Guys coming, and they can go off the line like nobody's business.

Ha! It's awesome hearing the announcer say, "Carleton's looking rapid...".

I've shared the track with her at ADT, but I've never properly met her. Maybe I'll meet her this season, being that we both have awesome names.

David Broon 04-12-13 11:36 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 15505011)
Ha! It's awesome hearing the announcer say, "Carleton's looking rapid...".

I've shared the track with her at ADT, but I've never properly met her. Maybe I'll meet her this season, being that we both have awesome names.

She's one of the nicest people on the planet, and I know a lot of nice people. She's got a cool story too, reformed triathlete, injured on the road, tried the track, and then two years later she's got a olympic bronze.

She's also super-involved in the local Fixed gear Community, and willing to lend her name to help us get permits to close roads and what not.

She also has the best hair evar:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...78839954_n.jpg

Hermes 04-13-13 09:28 AM

So Gillian logged a 20.62 starting lap and a 14.89 second lap for a 35.51.

Anyone have better metrics than that? The other Carleton????:D

Six jours 04-13-13 10:16 AM

Background: Cat. 1 on the track and raced as an "independent" (semi-pro, essentially) six day rider in Germany. After coming back to America I focused on the kilo for a couple of years. All of this was a long damn time ago. Am currently old and fat.

Power output: A few years after retirement from racing I got a chance to play around with a first generation powermeter on a second generation Look carbon road bike. My pathetic-feeling standing start netted about 1900 watts (and a lot of snap/crackle/pop from that silly bicycle) so I guess in shape I would have been good for 2000 or a bit more.

500 TT experience: none. I raced back when men were men and 500s were for girls and senior citizens. (Ya bunch of pansies.) My best kilo was 1:08 and change - standard drop bars and, IIRC, a disk on back and a 36 spoke box section tubular up front.

So if my resume measures up, I'll offer some half-assed opinions of my own:

First, I did a lot of kilo training on my road bike, including more full-power standing starts than I'd like to consider. It did feel a little different on the road bike, but I don't think that actually madeany difference. And I never pulled a wheel, with quick releases and horizontal drops. So I'm not sure that's a factor either, Chris Hoy maybe excepted. (FWIW, I knew a national class sprinter who got tired of changing cogs during his track workouts, so had a bunch of rear track wheels made up with quick releases. He definitely put out more power than me, and I never saw him pull a wheel on the track. All the wheels I ever did see get pulled were mounted on frames with too much paint on the dropouts.) So I don't see any of that as really being a knock against the "geared 500" concept.

More to the point, it's already been done. Jocelyn Lovell raced kilo succesfully on a two speed bike in the 70s, and Rory O'Reilly tried one in the 80s, with less success.

Lovell set his bike up with two drivetrains. On one side he used a low-geared freewheel, and on the other, a larger-geared fixed cog. At the start, the fixed cog would be spun onto just a thread or two. As he accelerated, the force would be passed through the freewheel, while the fixed cog spun onto the hub. When it engaged, viola, bigger gear. It worked for him - but he was the best Canadian kilo guy of his generation and (IMO) would have done just as well with a standard drivetrain.

O'Reilly used the Browning transmission, involving two chainrings and an actuator, so there was never any need to back off the power. He went slower with it, claiming low was too low and high was too high.

So IMO, it's more-or-less a wash. A geared 500 would probably come out about the same as a fixed 500, all other things being equal.

David Broon 04-13-13 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermes (Post 15505858)
So Gillian logged a 20.62 starting lap and a 14.89 second lap for a 35.51.

Anyone have better metrics than that? The other Carleton????:D

Allowing for 5 seconds for a start in a 250m track, that's about even.

carleton 04-14-13 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Six jours (Post 15506043)
Background: Cat. 1 on the track and raced as an "independent" (semi-pro, essentially) six day rider in Germany. After coming back to America I focused on the kilo for a couple of years. All of this was a long damn time ago. Am currently old and fat.

Power output: A few years after retirement from racing I got a chance to play around with a first generation powermeter on a second generation Look carbon road bike. My pathetic-feeling standing start netted about 1900 watts (and a lot of snap/crackle/pop from that silly bicycle) so I guess in shape I would have been good for 2000 or a bit more.

500 TT experience: none. I raced back when men were men and 500s were for girls and senior citizens. (Ya bunch of pansies.) My best kilo was 1:08 and change - standard drop bars and, IIRC, a disk on back and a 36 spoke box section tubular up front.

So if my resume measures up, I'll offer some half-assed opinions of my own:

First, I did a lot of kilo training on my road bike, including more full-power standing starts than I'd like to consider. It did feel a little different on the road bike, but I don't think that actually madeany difference. And I never pulled a wheel, with quick releases and horizontal drops. So I'm not sure that's a factor either, Chris Hoy maybe excepted. (FWIW, I knew a national class sprinter who got tired of changing cogs during his track workouts, so had a bunch of rear track wheels made up with quick releases. He definitely put out more power than me, and I never saw him pull a wheel on the track. All the wheels I ever did see get pulled were mounted on frames with too much paint on the dropouts.) So I don't see any of that as really being a knock against the "geared 500" concept.

More to the point, it's already been done. Jocelyn Lovell raced kilo succesfully on a two speed bike in the 70s, and Rory O'Reilly tried one in the 80s, with less success.

Lovell set his bike up with two drivetrains. On one side he used a low-geared freewheel, and on the other, a larger-geared fixed cog. At the start, the fixed cog would be spun onto just a thread or two. As he accelerated, the force would be passed through the freewheel, while the fixed cog spun onto the hub. When it engaged, viola, bigger gear. It worked for him - but he was the best Canadian kilo guy of his generation and (IMO) would have done just as well with a standard drivetrain.

O'Reilly used the Browning transmission, involving two chainrings and an actuator, so there was never any need to back off the power. He went slower with it, claiming low was too low and high was too high.

So IMO, it's more-or-less a wash. A geared 500 would probably come out about the same as a fixed 500, all other things being equal.

Thanks for the insight!

IthaDan 04-20-13 06:54 PM

Haven't read the entire thread, but Nelson Vails used to ride a bike with a brake lever attached to a rear derailleur that worked as a very basic two speed.

http://i.imgur.com/8UIkpeE.jpg

As chronicled in the comments for this article on Dave Moulton's blog:

Quote:

...The sprint was downtown and Nelson was there with his "trick" sprint bike. It had a rear derailleur and two cogs. The derailleur was operated by a brake lever. Upon starting, Nelson held in the lever keeping the bike in a low gear. As he came to speed he realeased the lever and the bike upshifted to a higher, and faster gear
E: this is a totally redundant post to post #35.


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