Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-04-13, 12:55 PM   #1
WTBATS
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Will adding 300g (.66lbs) to my wheelset make me slower?

I have an opportunity to upgrade wheelsets from the clinchers that I have now to tubulars.

I'm doing the math and the tubulars weigh significantly more. I understand that aero > weight, but is it worth gaining over half a pound in the wheels?

Data:


Current:


Upgrade:
WTBATS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 01:01 PM   #2
spazegun2213
Senior Member
 
spazegun2213's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: San Diego
Bikes: '11 Allez Comp, '09 Pinarello Pista
Posts: 597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
While I have little mathematical proof to back me up, I feel like .7lbs is not going to be noticeable unless you are in the top 99% of athletes. That being said, you might feel the rigidity of the wheels, but I HIGHLY doubt you'll feel anything less than a pound, nor do I think it will effect your speed.

I'd do it and not think twice about it. for that .7lbs you get the disc sound and serious baller status... totally worth it
spazegun2213 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 01:07 PM   #3
WTBATS
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
^ Thanks, however my main focus is squeezing out as much extra speed that I can. I rather have speed status over baller status.

--

Also, you tubular sprinters. I am maxed out at 150 PSI for the clinchers and the Vittoria Pistas are rated up to 220 PSI.

Will inflating the tubulars to 220 PSI present any benefit over 150 PSI?
WTBATS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 01:19 PM   #4
Kayce
Senior Member
 
Kayce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: St Louis
Bikes:
Posts: 1,846
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The aero benefits and stiffness of a disk will likeley out shine the slightly higher weight in the wheels.
Kayce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 01:56 PM   #5
Flatballer
No matches
 
Flatballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eastern PA
Bikes: two wheeled ones
Posts: 10,485
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Seriously? You're asking this question? FFS.

Step 1) Go look at what basically every single Olympian uses.
Step 2) Look up what they weigh (Io/Comete set is 1730 grams, not exactly light)
Step 3) realize that they could have picked any wheelset in the world, including ones that are under 1200 grams.
Step 4) don't be an idiot.
Flatballer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 02:12 PM   #6
Not the Slowest
Senior Member
 
Not the Slowest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Riverdale, NY
Bikes: 2002 Seven Axiom
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Keep me posted when you want to get rid of those CRAPPY Reynolds wheels. I am sure they WILL keep slowing you down. Besides I rather look fast than be fast , too old to change that now.
Not the Slowest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 02:22 PM   #7
WTBATS
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
Seriously? You're asking this question? FFS.

Step 1) Go look at what basically every single Olympian uses.
Step 2) Look up what they weigh (Io/Comete set is 1730 grams, not exactly light)
Step 3) realize that they could have picked any wheelset in the world, including ones that are under 1200 grams.
Step 4) don't be an idiot.
No need to be unnecessarily harsh.

If you noticed, I am not purchasing the Mavic IO/Comete set. I'm purchasing something heavier.

From your claimed 1730g weight for the Mavic's that puts it lighter than my current wheelset negating your argument.

I'm not moving to Mavics which are lighter than my current wheelset (according to you), i'm moving heavier than my current wheelset.

Last edited by WTBATS; 06-04-13 at 02:35 PM.
WTBATS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 02:58 PM   #8
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,019
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post
I have an opportunity to upgrade wheelsets from the clinchers that I have now to tubulars.

I'm doing the math and the tubulars weigh significantly more. I understand that aero > weight, but is it worth gaining over half a pound in the wheels?

Data:


Current:


Upgrade:
For 99.9% of club, local, regional type racers, the difference in their performance on these two sets of wheels will be negligible. Basically, if you aren't going over roughly 40mph, you won't experience any difference. Even then, the differences will be very small.

How do I know?

I've raced at least a dozen track wheelsets. Everything from basic clincher training wheels to the Mavic Io/Comete set. There are differences, but the two you are comparing above are very similar in performance.

Use the ones that you think are cool and make you feel fast (seriously)

Also, tubular cost more and take a lot of time (and maybe $ if you pay someone to do it) to change. Consider that, too.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 03:27 PM   #9
WTBATS
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
For 99.9% of club, local, regional type racers, the difference in their performance on these two sets of wheels will be negligible. Basically, if you aren't going over roughly 40mph, you won't experience any difference. Even then, the differences will be very small.

How do I know?

I've raced at least a dozen track wheelsets. Everything from basic clincher training wheels to the Mavic Io/Comete set. There are differences, but the two you are comparing above are very similar in performance.

Use the ones that you think are cool and make you feel fast (seriously)

Also, tubular cost more and take a lot of time (and maybe $ if you pay someone to do it) to change. Consider that, too.
Great info. Have you ever tried flying 200's back to back with the same gearing between box wheels and Mavics? How much of a decrease in time did you experience simply by using Mavics?

My assumption is that they aren't some sort of magic wheels and you'll see a 1 second gain, maybe something more around .1s-.2s.

I've stayed away from tubulars specifically for that reason. I can change a clincher no problem. Tubulars, SOL.

I searched around for awhile looking for the best bang for the buck / aero clinchers and landed with the Reynolds. The weight of the wheels are lighter than a lot of tubular wheels which I think makes them great. But this year i'm using my budget on a new set of wheels versus buying a new bike.
WTBATS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 03:47 PM   #10
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,019
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post
Great info. Have you ever tried flying 200's back to back with the same gearing between box wheels and Mavics? How much of a decrease in time did you experience simply by using Mavics?

My assumption is that they aren't some sort of magic wheels and you'll see a 1 second gain, maybe something more around .1s-.2s.

I've stayed away from tubulars specifically for that reason. I can change a clincher no problem. Tubulars, SOL.

I searched around for awhile looking for the best bang for the buck / aero clinchers and landed with the Reynolds. The weight of the wheels are lighter than a lot of tubular wheels which I think makes them great. But this year i'm using my budget on a new set of wheels versus buying a new bike.
Well, for me, from training wheels to race wheel I'll gain maybe 0.3-0.4" in a Flying 200M. Maybe 1.5-2" on a Kilo effort. But that's using the two extreme types of wheels.

Aero shoe covers, skinsuits, aero helmets all individually do as much as an aero front wheel That's where the best bang for the buck happens.

Tubulars are generally preferred because they feel different and have a more predictable round profile (great for transitioning from straights to banking), not because of performance gains. But, there also exist "open tubular" clincher tires that do this, too.

The Reynolds are a great wheelset.

If you are seeking performance gains, there are lots of other things that will make you faster. Maybe keep the Reynolds and invest in:
- Annual track pass
- Skills clinics
- Booties
- Aero helmet
- Skinsuit
- Bike fit (by someone who knows track)
- Travel to other tracks to race more
- Coaching
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 04:10 PM   #11
spazegun2213
Senior Member
 
spazegun2213's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: San Diego
Bikes: '11 Allez Comp, '09 Pinarello Pista
Posts: 597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post

Data:

I just noticed that you have only one tire and tube for the clinchers, vs 2 on your tubulars. Are the clinchers really that light (eg is 140g for both)? if you forgot to add another tire and tube, then you are at 110g difference between the two.... which is nothing.
spazegun2213 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 04:16 PM   #12
WTBATS
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spazegun2213 View Post
I just noticed that you have only one tire and tube for the clinchers, vs 2 on your tubulars. Are the clinchers really that light (eg is 140g for both)? if you forgot to add another tire and tube, then you are at 110g difference between the two.... which is nothing.
I have the same supersonics and tubes on both tires so I only displayed it once but multiplied by two in the calculations:

1675 + 2(140+50) = 2055

For the tubulars I plan on using a different front vs rear tire and wanted to accommodate for the weight difference visually.
WTBATS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 04:23 PM   #13
WTBATS
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Well, for me, from training wheels to race wheel I'll gain maybe 0.3-0.4" in a Flying 200M. Maybe 1.5-2" on a Kilo effort. But that's using the two extreme types of wheels.

Aero shoe covers, skinsuits, aero helmets all individually do as much as an aero front wheel That's where the best bang for the buck happens.

Tubulars are generally preferred because they feel different and have a more predictable round profile (great for transitioning from straights to banking), not because of performance gains. But, there also exist "open tubular" clincher tires that do this, too.

The Reynolds are a great wheelset.

If you are seeking performance gains, there are lots of other things that will make you faster. Maybe keep the Reynolds and invest in:
- Annual track pass
- Skills clinics
- Booties
- Aero helmet
- Skinsuit
- Bike fit (by someone who knows track)
- Travel to other tracks to race more
- Coaching
Yikes, .3-.4 is substantial. I didn't think it would be that much. That's promising to hear.

This is my last year i'll try to self train. Next step is to get a coach (probably this winter). But I assume a coach means i'll also need to get a power meter and that's not cheap.
WTBATS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 04:26 PM   #14
spazegun2213
Senior Member
 
spazegun2213's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: San Diego
Bikes: '11 Allez Comp, '09 Pinarello Pista
Posts: 597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post
I have the same supersonics and tubes on both tires so I only displayed it once but multiplied by two in the calculations:

1675 + 2(140+50) = 2055

For the tubulars I plan on using a different front vs rear tire and wanted to accommodate for the weight difference visually.
clearly I need to learn how to add before I accuse others of not knowing, lol!

I still stand behind what I said though, .6lbs is not a lot of weight.
spazegun2213 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 05:22 PM   #15
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,019
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post
Yikes, .3-.4 is substantial. I didn't think it would be that much. That's promising to hear.
Not really. A rider can gain/lost 0.3-0.4" in a flying 200M by taking a different line or using a different gear.

In local/regional competition, qualifying spots 1-5 could be separated by 0.5" or more. More for Masters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post
This is my last year i'll try to self train. Next step is to get a coach (probably this winter). But I assume a coach means i'll also need to get a power meter and that's not cheap.
I'd venture to guess that 20% of the track coaches that I know of ask for their athletes to have power meters. I've had 3 really, really good coaches and not one required a power meter. A computer that records speed and cadence is enough. One that has downloadable data, like the Garmin 500 or PowerTap Cervo (basically powertap without the power hub) for around $300 is all you need.

Max Speed and Stopwatch Splits can tell a good coach a wealth of information about how an athlete is doing. My first full season training and racing with my power meter my coach asked me what my wattage was once. She was more concerned with top speed and top cadence on each effort on a weekly bases.

Most coaches that I know of use power meter data to adjust training load more than anything. This is to induce stress and overcompensation by the body. I can tell when I'm stressed and overtrained by how cranky I am. I can see my body overcompensating when I get stronger/faster.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 05:34 PM   #16
Kayce
Senior Member
 
Kayce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: St Louis
Bikes:
Posts: 1,846
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
A 200 time is important. But people often use that as a guide rather than how a wheel rides in the actual sprints. 200s are a build to an all out effort. There is no hard jump or hard deceleration. Different wheels act very differently in those situations.
Kayce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 05:36 PM   #17
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,019
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spazegun2213 View Post
I still stand behind what I said though, .6lbs is not a lot of weight.
+1

Seriously.

A normal person can fluctuate 3lbs or more depending on food and hydration status. That doesn't even take into account clothing, etc...

People can "weight weenie" all they want, but it really doesn't matter as much as we think. For example, the Felt TK1, LOOK 496, BT Stealth are *not* the lightest frames on the market. What makes them the choice of fast riders is other characteristics. And that's on the world-class level. On the local level, if you put the same rider on the same bike with +/- 5lbs his race placings wouldn't be significantly different (if at all).

I had a 57cm TK1 and I weighed it with Mavic Io and Comete wheels and SRM cranks. It was 21lbs.

Here it is with other wheels:




Now...

Here is Sarah Hammer's TK1. I assume that it's a size 55. It can't be much lighter. Maybe 20lbs? 19.5lbs?



She does OK on it

So does Jennie Reed (I know this is size 55)



So...don't worry so much
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 05:40 PM   #18
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,019
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayce View Post
A 200 time is important. But people often use that as a guide rather than how a wheel rides in the actual sprints. 200s are a build to an all out effort. There is no hard jump or hard deceleration. Different wheels act very differently in those situations.
He asked for a comparison of wheelsets on extreme opposite ends of the spectrum, "...box wheels and Mavics". If I did back to back 200M using Reynolds and FFW and Mavics, the times would not be significantly different, if any different at all.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 05:42 PM   #19
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,019
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Oh, and here is Kevin Mansker (probably the guy in the USA right now) riding the TK1 with steel bars.



Weight is not an issue.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-13, 06:18 PM   #20
Kayce
Senior Member
 
Kayce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: St Louis
Bikes:
Posts: 1,846
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
He asked for a comparison of wheelsets on extreme opposite ends of the spectrum, "...box wheels and Mavics". If I did back to back 200M using Reynolds and FFW and Mavics, the times would not be significantly different, if any different at all.
I didn't mean it as a critique of anyone, or anything. Just something I have noticed from track discussions in general.
Kayce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-13, 03:00 AM   #21
Dalai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Bikes:
Posts: 1,962
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
Seriously? You're asking this question? FFS

Step 1) Go look at what basically every single Olympian uses.
Step 2) Look up what they weigh (Io/Comete set is 1730 grams, not exactly light)
Step 3) realize that they could have picked any wheelset in the world, including ones that are under 1200 grams.
Step 4) don't be an idiot.
1. I personally wouldn't use what Olympians ride as a comment on what is the best gear. Countries may have restrictions on what they are allowed to ride or use. I'd also read (can't find the source right now) that Mavic provided a nice incentive pricewise for countries to use their wheels...

2. I would expect the IO/Comete set will weigh alot more than 1730g but haven't found real weights only manufacturer claimed weights. Also see point 1.

3 See point 1.

4. See below

No need to be rude Flatballer. Small enough community here and few posts. Jumping down this blokes throat will only make others think twice before coming here and asking a question - regardless of how stupid you may think it is...
Dalai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-13, 06:12 AM   #22
jolly_ross
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Bikes:
Posts: 621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You can't buy "much faster" - you have to work for it.

Ride your bike a lot.
jolly_ross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-13, 06:58 AM   #23
ochizon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
"Id rather be fast and look slow than be slow and look fast"

in other words - ride what you got, with HUGE intensity. Then rest and eat
ochizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-13, 11:58 AM   #24
WTBATS
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Oh, and here is Kevin Mansker (probably the guy in the USA right now) riding the TK1 with steel bars.



Weight is not an issue.
Kev is definitely the fastest in the US right now. There are a few up and coming juniors that have the potential to top him in a few years but not right now. Looks like he was using a similar front wheel as mine!

Thanks for the insight on the high end bikes. That really puts things into perspective. I didn't think a $4k frame with $7k wheelset would weigh 21lbs.

We have some people at the track with super lightweight carbon frames barely over 15lbs. I was feeling a bit envious with an 18lb bike.

*All, this has been mostly a positive discussion. Thanks. I think i'm going to make the plunge for the new wheels. I'm not expecting much, I just want to experience something different.

To those who say it's a clear an simple choice; it's not, really. My current aero wheelset is not garbage. If it were a comparison of box wheels vs the FFWD sure, upgrade. But comparing a lighter aero wheelset vs a heavier FFWD does warrant the question.
WTBATS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-13, 12:24 PM   #25
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 13,019
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post
Kev is definitely the fastest in the US right now. There are a few up and coming juniors that have the potential to top him in a few years but not right now. Looks like he was using a similar front wheel as mine!

Thanks for the insight on the high end bikes. That really puts things into perspective. I didn't think a $4k frame with $7k wheelset would weigh 21lbs.

We have some people at the track with super lightweight carbon frames barely over 15lbs. I was feeling a bit envious with an 18lb bike.

*All, this has been mostly a positive discussion. Thanks. I think i'm going to make the plunge for the new wheels. I'm not expecting much, I just want to experience something different.

To those who say it's a clear an simple choice; it's not, really. My current aero wheelset is not garbage. If it were a comparison of box wheels vs the FFWD sure, upgrade. But comparing a lighter aero wheelset vs a heavier FFWD does warrant the question.
It's basically a lateral move. But if it makes you feel fast, you'll be fast Go for it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:55 PM.