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  1. #1
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    Will adding 300g (.66lbs) to my wheelset make me slower?

    I have an opportunity to upgrade wheelsets from the clinchers that I have now to tubulars.

    I'm doing the math and the tubulars weigh significantly more. I understand that aero > weight, but is it worth gaining over half a pound in the wheels?

    Data:


    Current:


    Upgrade:

  2. #2
    Senior Member spazegun2213's Avatar
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    While I have little mathematical proof to back me up, I feel like .7lbs is not going to be noticeable unless you are in the top 99% of athletes. That being said, you might feel the rigidity of the wheels, but I HIGHLY doubt you'll feel anything less than a pound, nor do I think it will effect your speed.

    I'd do it and not think twice about it. for that .7lbs you get the disc sound and serious baller status... totally worth it
    '11 allez Comp, very specialized & '09 Pinarello Pista, that only turns left
    It doesn't hurt any less, you just go faster

  3. #3
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    ^ Thanks, however my main focus is squeezing out as much extra speed that I can. I rather have speed status over baller status.

    --

    Also, you tubular sprinters. I am maxed out at 150 PSI for the clinchers and the Vittoria Pistas are rated up to 220 PSI.

    Will inflating the tubulars to 220 PSI present any benefit over 150 PSI?

  4. #4
    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
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    The aero benefits and stiffness of a disk will likeley out shine the slightly higher weight in the wheels.
    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

  5. #5
    No matches Flatballer's Avatar
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    Seriously? You're asking this question? FFS.

    Step 1) Go look at what basically every single Olympian uses.
    Step 2) Look up what they weigh (Io/Comete set is 1730 grams, not exactly light)
    Step 3) realize that they could have picked any wheelset in the world, including ones that are under 1200 grams.
    Step 4) don't be an idiot.
    It's a bike race, not a tea party. - GirlAnachronism

  6. #6
    Senior Member Not the Slowest's Avatar
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    Keep me posted when you want to get rid of those CRAPPY Reynolds wheels. I am sure they WILL keep slowing you down. Besides I rather look fast than be fast , too old to change that now.
    Robert
    Not The Slowest, Never The Fastest, even Solo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
    Seriously? You're asking this question? FFS.

    Step 1) Go look at what basically every single Olympian uses.
    Step 2) Look up what they weigh (Io/Comete set is 1730 grams, not exactly light)
    Step 3) realize that they could have picked any wheelset in the world, including ones that are under 1200 grams.
    Step 4) don't be an idiot.
    No need to be unnecessarily harsh.

    If you noticed, I am not purchasing the Mavic IO/Comete set. I'm purchasing something heavier.

    From your claimed 1730g weight for the Mavic's that puts it lighter than my current wheelset negating your argument.

    I'm not moving to Mavics which are lighter than my current wheelset (according to you), i'm moving heavier than my current wheelset.
    Last edited by WTBATS; 06-04-13 at 02:35 PM.

  8. #8
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post
    I have an opportunity to upgrade wheelsets from the clinchers that I have now to tubulars.

    I'm doing the math and the tubulars weigh significantly more. I understand that aero > weight, but is it worth gaining over half a pound in the wheels?

    Data:


    Current:


    Upgrade:
    For 99.9% of club, local, regional type racers, the difference in their performance on these two sets of wheels will be negligible. Basically, if you aren't going over roughly 40mph, you won't experience any difference. Even then, the differences will be very small.

    How do I know?

    I've raced at least a dozen track wheelsets. Everything from basic clincher training wheels to the Mavic Io/Comete set. There are differences, but the two you are comparing above are very similar in performance.

    Use the ones that you think are cool and make you feel fast (seriously)

    Also, tubular cost more and take a lot of time (and maybe $ if you pay someone to do it) to change. Consider that, too.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    For 99.9% of club, local, regional type racers, the difference in their performance on these two sets of wheels will be negligible. Basically, if you aren't going over roughly 40mph, you won't experience any difference. Even then, the differences will be very small.

    How do I know?

    I've raced at least a dozen track wheelsets. Everything from basic clincher training wheels to the Mavic Io/Comete set. There are differences, but the two you are comparing above are very similar in performance.

    Use the ones that you think are cool and make you feel fast (seriously)

    Also, tubular cost more and take a lot of time (and maybe $ if you pay someone to do it) to change. Consider that, too.
    Great info. Have you ever tried flying 200's back to back with the same gearing between box wheels and Mavics? How much of a decrease in time did you experience simply by using Mavics?

    My assumption is that they aren't some sort of magic wheels and you'll see a 1 second gain, maybe something more around .1s-.2s.

    I've stayed away from tubulars specifically for that reason. I can change a clincher no problem. Tubulars, SOL.

    I searched around for awhile looking for the best bang for the buck / aero clinchers and landed with the Reynolds. The weight of the wheels are lighter than a lot of tubular wheels which I think makes them great. But this year i'm using my budget on a new set of wheels versus buying a new bike.

  10. #10
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post
    Great info. Have you ever tried flying 200's back to back with the same gearing between box wheels and Mavics? How much of a decrease in time did you experience simply by using Mavics?

    My assumption is that they aren't some sort of magic wheels and you'll see a 1 second gain, maybe something more around .1s-.2s.

    I've stayed away from tubulars specifically for that reason. I can change a clincher no problem. Tubulars, SOL.

    I searched around for awhile looking for the best bang for the buck / aero clinchers and landed with the Reynolds. The weight of the wheels are lighter than a lot of tubular wheels which I think makes them great. But this year i'm using my budget on a new set of wheels versus buying a new bike.
    Well, for me, from training wheels to race wheel I'll gain maybe 0.3-0.4" in a Flying 200M. Maybe 1.5-2" on a Kilo effort. But that's using the two extreme types of wheels.

    Aero shoe covers, skinsuits, aero helmets all individually do as much as an aero front wheel That's where the best bang for the buck happens.

    Tubulars are generally preferred because they feel different and have a more predictable round profile (great for transitioning from straights to banking), not because of performance gains. But, there also exist "open tubular" clincher tires that do this, too.

    The Reynolds are a great wheelset.

    If you are seeking performance gains, there are lots of other things that will make you faster. Maybe keep the Reynolds and invest in:
    - Annual track pass
    - Skills clinics
    - Booties
    - Aero helmet
    - Skinsuit
    - Bike fit (by someone who knows track)
    - Travel to other tracks to race more
    - Coaching

  11. #11
    Senior Member spazegun2213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post

    Data:

    I just noticed that you have only one tire and tube for the clinchers, vs 2 on your tubulars. Are the clinchers really that light (eg is 140g for both)? if you forgot to add another tire and tube, then you are at 110g difference between the two.... which is nothing.
    '11 allez Comp, very specialized & '09 Pinarello Pista, that only turns left
    It doesn't hurt any less, you just go faster

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by spazegun2213 View Post
    I just noticed that you have only one tire and tube for the clinchers, vs 2 on your tubulars. Are the clinchers really that light (eg is 140g for both)? if you forgot to add another tire and tube, then you are at 110g difference between the two.... which is nothing.
    I have the same supersonics and tubes on both tires so I only displayed it once but multiplied by two in the calculations:

    1675 + 2(140+50) = 2055

    For the tubulars I plan on using a different front vs rear tire and wanted to accommodate for the weight difference visually.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Well, for me, from training wheels to race wheel I'll gain maybe 0.3-0.4" in a Flying 200M. Maybe 1.5-2" on a Kilo effort. But that's using the two extreme types of wheels.

    Aero shoe covers, skinsuits, aero helmets all individually do as much as an aero front wheel That's where the best bang for the buck happens.

    Tubulars are generally preferred because they feel different and have a more predictable round profile (great for transitioning from straights to banking), not because of performance gains. But, there also exist "open tubular" clincher tires that do this, too.

    The Reynolds are a great wheelset.

    If you are seeking performance gains, there are lots of other things that will make you faster. Maybe keep the Reynolds and invest in:
    - Annual track pass
    - Skills clinics
    - Booties
    - Aero helmet
    - Skinsuit
    - Bike fit (by someone who knows track)
    - Travel to other tracks to race more
    - Coaching
    Yikes, .3-.4 is substantial. I didn't think it would be that much. That's promising to hear.

    This is my last year i'll try to self train. Next step is to get a coach (probably this winter). But I assume a coach means i'll also need to get a power meter and that's not cheap.

  14. #14
    Senior Member spazegun2213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post
    I have the same supersonics and tubes on both tires so I only displayed it once but multiplied by two in the calculations:

    1675 + 2(140+50) = 2055

    For the tubulars I plan on using a different front vs rear tire and wanted to accommodate for the weight difference visually.
    clearly I need to learn how to add before I accuse others of not knowing, lol!

    I still stand behind what I said though, .6lbs is not a lot of weight.
    '11 allez Comp, very specialized & '09 Pinarello Pista, that only turns left
    It doesn't hurt any less, you just go faster

  15. #15
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post
    Yikes, .3-.4 is substantial. I didn't think it would be that much. That's promising to hear.
    Not really. A rider can gain/lost 0.3-0.4" in a flying 200M by taking a different line or using a different gear.

    In local/regional competition, qualifying spots 1-5 could be separated by 0.5" or more. More for Masters.

    Quote Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post
    This is my last year i'll try to self train. Next step is to get a coach (probably this winter). But I assume a coach means i'll also need to get a power meter and that's not cheap.
    I'd venture to guess that 20% of the track coaches that I know of ask for their athletes to have power meters. I've had 3 really, really good coaches and not one required a power meter. A computer that records speed and cadence is enough. One that has downloadable data, like the Garmin 500 or PowerTap Cervo (basically powertap without the power hub) for around $300 is all you need.

    Max Speed and Stopwatch Splits can tell a good coach a wealth of information about how an athlete is doing. My first full season training and racing with my power meter my coach asked me what my wattage was once. She was more concerned with top speed and top cadence on each effort on a weekly bases.

    Most coaches that I know of use power meter data to adjust training load more than anything. This is to induce stress and overcompensation by the body. I can tell when I'm stressed and overtrained by how cranky I am. I can see my body overcompensating when I get stronger/faster.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
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    A 200 time is important. But people often use that as a guide rather than how a wheel rides in the actual sprints. 200s are a build to an all out effort. There is no hard jump or hard deceleration. Different wheels act very differently in those situations.
    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

  17. #17
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spazegun2213 View Post
    I still stand behind what I said though, .6lbs is not a lot of weight.
    +1

    Seriously.

    A normal person can fluctuate 3lbs or more depending on food and hydration status. That doesn't even take into account clothing, etc...

    People can "weight weenie" all they want, but it really doesn't matter as much as we think. For example, the Felt TK1, LOOK 496, BT Stealth are *not* the lightest frames on the market. What makes them the choice of fast riders is other characteristics. And that's on the world-class level. On the local level, if you put the same rider on the same bike with +/- 5lbs his race placings wouldn't be significantly different (if at all).

    I had a 57cm TK1 and I weighed it with Mavic Io and Comete wheels and SRM cranks. It was 21lbs.

    Here it is with other wheels:




    Now...

    Here is Sarah Hammer's TK1. I assume that it's a size 55. It can't be much lighter. Maybe 20lbs? 19.5lbs?



    She does OK on it

    So does Jennie Reed (I know this is size 55)



    So...don't worry so much

  18. #18
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayce View Post
    A 200 time is important. But people often use that as a guide rather than how a wheel rides in the actual sprints. 200s are a build to an all out effort. There is no hard jump or hard deceleration. Different wheels act very differently in those situations.
    He asked for a comparison of wheelsets on extreme opposite ends of the spectrum, "...box wheels and Mavics". If I did back to back 200M using Reynolds and FFW and Mavics, the times would not be significantly different, if any different at all.

  19. #19
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Oh, and here is Kevin Mansker (probably the guy in the USA right now) riding the TK1 with steel bars.



    Weight is not an issue.

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    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    He asked for a comparison of wheelsets on extreme opposite ends of the spectrum, "...box wheels and Mavics". If I did back to back 200M using Reynolds and FFW and Mavics, the times would not be significantly different, if any different at all.
    I didn't mean it as a critique of anyone, or anything. Just something I have noticed from track discussions in general.
    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
    Seriously? You're asking this question? FFS

    Step 1) Go look at what basically every single Olympian uses.
    Step 2) Look up what they weigh (Io/Comete set is 1730 grams, not exactly light)
    Step 3) realize that they could have picked any wheelset in the world, including ones that are under 1200 grams.
    Step 4) don't be an idiot.
    1. I personally wouldn't use what Olympians ride as a comment on what is the best gear. Countries may have restrictions on what they are allowed to ride or use. I'd also read (can't find the source right now) that Mavic provided a nice incentive pricewise for countries to use their wheels...

    2. I would expect the IO/Comete set will weigh alot more than 1730g but haven't found real weights only manufacturer claimed weights. Also see point 1.

    3 See point 1.

    4. See below

    No need to be rude Flatballer. Small enough community here and few posts. Jumping down this blokes throat will only make others think twice before coming here and asking a question - regardless of how stupid you may think it is...
    http://climbinglama.blogspot.com.au

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    You can't buy "much faster" - you have to work for it.

    Ride your bike a lot.

  23. #23
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    "Id rather be fast and look slow than be slow and look fast"

    in other words - ride what you got, with HUGE intensity. Then rest and eat

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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Oh, and here is Kevin Mansker (probably the guy in the USA right now) riding the TK1 with steel bars.



    Weight is not an issue.
    Kev is definitely the fastest in the US right now. There are a few up and coming juniors that have the potential to top him in a few years but not right now. Looks like he was using a similar front wheel as mine!

    Thanks for the insight on the high end bikes. That really puts things into perspective. I didn't think a $4k frame with $7k wheelset would weigh 21lbs.

    We have some people at the track with super lightweight carbon frames barely over 15lbs. I was feeling a bit envious with an 18lb bike.

    *All, this has been mostly a positive discussion. Thanks. I think i'm going to make the plunge for the new wheels. I'm not expecting much, I just want to experience something different.

    To those who say it's a clear an simple choice; it's not, really. My current aero wheelset is not garbage. If it were a comparison of box wheels vs the FFWD sure, upgrade. But comparing a lighter aero wheelset vs a heavier FFWD does warrant the question.

  25. #25
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WTBATS View Post
    Kev is definitely the fastest in the US right now. There are a few up and coming juniors that have the potential to top him in a few years but not right now. Looks like he was using a similar front wheel as mine!

    Thanks for the insight on the high end bikes. That really puts things into perspective. I didn't think a $4k frame with $7k wheelset would weigh 21lbs.

    We have some people at the track with super lightweight carbon frames barely over 15lbs. I was feeling a bit envious with an 18lb bike.

    *All, this has been mostly a positive discussion. Thanks. I think i'm going to make the plunge for the new wheels. I'm not expecting much, I just want to experience something different.

    To those who say it's a clear an simple choice; it's not, really. My current aero wheelset is not garbage. If it were a comparison of box wheels vs the FFWD sure, upgrade. But comparing a lighter aero wheelset vs a heavier FFWD does warrant the question.
    It's basically a lateral move. But if it makes you feel fast, you'll be fast Go for it.

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