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Old 10-23-13, 01:55 AM   #26
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Thanks 11.4, I'm definately new to straps so I struggle a bit...

I'm going to have a go at making these but for my Look Keos:

http://www.badbean.com/cyclingstuff/spd_straps.htm

JMR
Toe clip ends are one of the basic ways to start with a semi-engineered loop. Some Keos don't have a surface for the plate to rest on without interference, but you can scope this out ahead of time. If I recall, for most Keos there's a little corner brace on each side that you can either tap right into or use as a brace, but there isn't a spot in front to hold the plate, so people end up drilling and tapping small holes.

I'd upgrde this design slightly with button-head stainless allen bolts and with stainless Nylok nuts so they don't come undone.

And I apologize if I sounded condescending at all. I didn't mean to be. Straps are a learned skill. It's one thing to have someone holding your saddle on the start line while you can lean down and fix the lower pedal carefully and patiently. When you are rolling out and trying to do it, or doing it one handed while holding onto the rail with one hand, it can be a pain. Definitely spend the money on high quality laminated straps like the MKS Fit-alpha because if nothing else they tend not to flop as easily. And if you fit a double it definitely makes it easier to slip your foot in. The thing about doubles is that you need to engineer a second bracket for the second strap or they sometimes have a tendency to slip around, and if you have small feet, you simply don't have enough real estate on top to accommodate both straps. Oh, and if you have BOA fasteners or buckles on the lower part of your lacing, they get in the way of the second strap.
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Old 10-23-13, 10:11 AM   #27
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Zipties are ok, but fastening a loop of stainless steel (about 1/2" x 1/16" from Ace Hardware) will let you simply slip them in for a sprint workout and pull them out after. There are a variety of aluminum extrusions that various teams have used to equip pedals with straps. Check Fixed Gear Fever threads for those. Several are available for purchase.
In theory i agree with this 100%- the metal pieces function great and look very "pro".

in practice i personally cant see using anything other than Zip-Ties. First off we are talking about a system that only holds the weight of the strap when you are not in the pedals. once the strap is tightened all the force is between the bottom of the pedal body and the shoe.

Secondly- once you figure out a way to install the zip-ties so that you can remove the straps easily- the zips function the same as a metal piece.

for me it is just not worth the effort of tapping the pedal body or using Zip-Ties or bolts (i've seen both) to secure a metal piece, to accomplish the same thing the zip-ties do..
at this point im speaking strictly about my personal preference YMMV

as far as pieces to add to thread the straps through..
ive seen people cut plastic clips down and fix with zip ties.. created a pretty good system.
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Old 10-23-13, 02:28 PM   #28
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Setting up straps (single or double) on LOOK KEO MAX 2 is easy. I've done it. It takes 4 zip ties and 5 minutes to do.

Using double straps, have one strap on each side of the pedal spindle. You only need to zip tie down the one of the back-side of the spindle. The one in the front will hang loosely till you tighten them on your foot. I used that system for years.

You can also overlap the straps like this:

(Giddeon Massie's old setup)



Last season I zip-tied and doubled-up my double straps like that and it works well. Having both straps on the back-side of the pedal spindle is better as all of the upward force comes from that side. Your forefoot doesn't pull up much (if at all).

Also, single straps are good enough for Hoy and his peers, they are good enough for me. I've seen Hoy and other similarly strong riders ride singles and doubles. So, yeah...it may not even be necessary.

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Old 10-23-13, 04:37 PM   #29
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In theory i agree with this 100%- the metal pieces function great and look very "pro".

in practice i personally cant see using anything other than Zip-Ties. First off we are talking about a system that only holds the weight of the strap when you are not in the pedals. once the strap is tightened all the force is between the bottom of the pedal body and the shoe.

Secondly- once you figure out a way to install the zip-ties so that you can remove the straps easily- the zips function the same as a metal piece.

for me it is just not worth the effort of tapping the pedal body or using Zip-Ties or bolts (i've seen both) to secure a metal piece, to accomplish the same thing the zip-ties do..
at this point im speaking strictly about my personal preference YMMV

as far as pieces to add to thread the straps through..
ive seen people cut plastic clips down and fix with zip ties.. created a pretty good system.
Just a couple thoughts here.

First, zip ties are rated for about a 30-40 lb breaking strength, or up to 70 if you go with the T&B ones with the metal tongue and pick a larger size. The rating on pulling a cleat out of a 7810 SPD-L pedal, tightened half way (by counting rotations), is 135 lbs. The rating on a current Look Keo is 155 lbs. If you're applying enough force to pull out of the pedal, you're applying enough force to break any zip tie.

Second, there are two ways to pull out of your typical clipless pedal (excluding Speedplay from discussion for the moment). First is to pull backwards. In this approach the back of the cleat never leaves the pedal, but the front finally does and your whole foot is then loose. (That's what was measured above.) You can't really lift up and out without breaking a cleat. The other approach is to rotate out. That's really what most people seem to do and of course it takes a lot less force.

If you pull out by the former approach, you're hosed since you won't be able to get your foot reengaged with the strap holding it down. If you pull out by rotating out, the strap only needs to keep your cleat down on the pedal, and the pedal will re-engage (applies to Speedplay as well). That's why many top riders are only riding single straps, since it only has to keep the shoe in place if the foot is rotated -- it doesn't bear a lot of stress (except for keeping the foot against the sole of the shoe, which the shoe upper is really supposed to do). And a single strap is easier to guide around all the attachment paraphernalia that modern shoe makers like to put on the top of their shoes where the strap otherwise wants to lie. The old days of double straps came from when you used slotted cleats and the straps were the only thing keeping you in the pedal, and also in those days the straps were straight leather and stretched like crazy so it took two to keep your foot from popping out. Also, many people had problems with pressure on the top of their foot, and two straps spread the pressure. Now that the strap only has to bear heavy pressure in the fraction of a second that you are inadvertently unclipping, that also isn't as much of a problem.

Going on, third, the biggest single edge in keeping your foot from rotating out is getting your cleat position correct on the shoe. Not many people have to rotate that much if position is accurate, unless they have style or greater lower extremity positioning problems. Honestly, many people use straps who don't need them, or only need them because they haven't dialed in their cleat positions accurately.

Back to zip-ties. If you are really pulling out, you are exerting forces well beyond the breaking strength of zip ties. Even with two or four ganged up, you're exceeding their strength. Plus zip ties don't take breaking strength pressure repeatedly -- they are weakened by each strain so they actually lose a lot of strength if you're really straining them. That more don't break is really a testament to the point above that most people really don't need the straps to begin with. If you're rotating out, you're also applying lateral forces to the zip ties that they aren't designed for, and again, if you're really testing them, they are under more load than they are designed for.

One may argue that the straps are wrapped around the pedal and the pedal body bears most of the stress. Not so if your foot rotates and you are twisting the strap around. And if you think about how you genuinely pull out of a clipless pedal (i.e., you pull back just a bit and then your toe comes up and out), you will not be pulling straight up as opposed to forwards or backwards. When I've seen a rider actually pull the toe of their cleat out of the pedal, they usually find out about it as they push forward and their foot slides off the front of the pedal. The pedal body isn't helping hold the strap all that much in that instance.

We all tend to think automatically as if we were still on traditional slotted cleats that had to pull vertically simply to exit them, and needed the straps to keep them from doing so. The actual movement on clipless pedals is rather different. I'm not saying that any rider doesn't generate a large amount of power, only that most riders don't pull out of their pedals and thus don't really need their straps and thus don't really test their zip ties. When the Aussies and French were developing strap mounting approaches, the mechanics knew who really pulled out and made sure that they were on systems more solid than zip ties.

If you do need doubles, it should be because you pull back and snap the front of your cleat free -- you won't stop that if your straps are up over the back of your cleat -- or if you can't handle any pressure on the top of your foot. So it's important that the front strap of a double actually be held in place securely. This is where the French aluminum extrusions that have two slots, one behind the other with about an inch in between, are so nice. Sources are in Fixed Gear Fever.
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Old 10-23-13, 05:25 PM   #30
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I do not really disagree with anything you have said- theoretically

but i have found:
in my experience, as a guy who has used straps for nearly all of my 5yrs of track racing- from beginner, when i had no real need for them- to an elite competitor in the kilo..

anything more than Zip-Ties is not necessary...

*never broken a Zip-Tie in an effort (they do break from wear- and it affects nothing)
*never had my cleat pull out and pop back in..
*never even had my foot so much as twist.

good quality single straps pulled tight is all you need.. once again YMMV
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Old 10-23-13, 05:26 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by 11.4 View Post
First, zip ties are rated for about a 30-40 lb breaking strength, or up to 70 if you go with the T&B ones with the metal tongue and pick a larger size. The rating on pulling a cleat out of a 7810 SPD-L pedal, tightened half way (by counting rotations), is 135 lbs. The rating on a current Look Keo is 155 lbs. If you're applying enough force to pull out of the pedal, you're applying enough force to break any zip tie.

Second, there are two ways to pull out of your typical clipless pedal (excluding Speedplay from discussion for the moment). First is to pull backwards. In this approach the back of the cleat never leaves the pedal, but the front finally does and your whole foot is then loose. (That's what was measured above.) You can't really lift up and out without breaking a cleat. The other approach is to rotate out. That's really what most people seem to do and of course it takes a lot less force.

If you pull out by the former approach, you're hosed since you won't be able to get your foot reengaged with the strap holding it down. If you pull out by rotating out, the strap only needs to keep your cleat down on the pedal, and the pedal will re-engage (applies to Speedplay as well). That's why many top riders are only riding single straps, since it only has to keep the shoe in place if the foot is rotated -- it doesn't bear a lot of stress (except for keeping the foot against the sole of the shoe, which the shoe upper is really supposed to do). And a single strap is easier to guide around all the attachment paraphernalia that modern shoe makers like to put on the top of their shoes where the strap otherwise wants to lie. The old days of double straps came from when you used slotted cleats and the straps were the only thing keeping you in the pedal, and also in those days the straps were straight leather and stretched like crazy so it took two to keep your foot from popping out. Also, many people had problems with pressure on the top of their foot, and two straps spread the pressure. Now that the strap only has to bear heavy pressure in the fraction of a second that you are inadvertently unclipping, that also isn't as much of a problem.

Going on, third, the biggest single edge in keeping your foot from rotating out is getting your cleat position correct on the shoe. Not many people have to rotate that much if position is accurate, unless they have style or greater lower extremity positioning problems. Honestly, many people use straps who don't need them, or only need them because they haven't dialed in their cleat positions accurately.

Back to zip-ties. If you are really pulling out, you are exerting forces well beyond the breaking strength of zip ties. Even with two or four ganged up, you're exceeding their strength. Plus zip ties don't take breaking strength pressure repeatedly -- they are weakened by each strain so they actually lose a lot of strength if you're really straining them. That more don't break is really a testament to the point above that most people really don't need the straps to begin with. If you're rotating out, you're also applying lateral forces to the zip ties that they aren't designed for, and again, if you're really testing them, they are under more load than they are designed for.

One may argue that the straps are wrapped around the pedal and the pedal body bears most of the stress. Not so if your foot rotates and you are twisting the strap around. And if you think about how you genuinely pull out of a clipless pedal (i.e., you pull back just a bit and then your toe comes up and out), you will not be pulling straight up as opposed to forwards or backwards. When I've seen a rider actually pull the toe of their cleat out of the pedal, they usually find out about it as they push forward and their foot slides off the front of the pedal. The pedal body isn't helping hold the strap all that much in that instance.

We all tend to think automatically as if we were still on traditional slotted cleats that had to pull vertically simply to exit them, and needed the straps to keep them from doing so. The actual movement on clipless pedals is rather different. I'm not saying that any rider doesn't generate a large amount of power, only that most riders don't pull out of their pedals and thus don't really need their straps and thus don't really test their zip ties. When the Aussies and French were developing strap mounting approaches, the mechanics knew who really pulled out and made sure that they were on systems more solid than zip ties.

If you do need doubles, it should be because you pull back and snap the front of your cleat free -- you won't stop that if your straps are up over the back of your cleat -- or if you can't handle any pressure on the top of your foot. So it's important that the front strap of a double actually be held in place securely. This is where the French aluminum extrusions that have two slots, one behind the other with about an inch in between, are so nice. Sources are in Fixed Gear Fever.
As you have noted, the zip ties do not bear any load. They simply hold the strap in place...no different than the top loop here:



The cage simply serves as a spring-loaded "extra hand" to hold the strap open as you stick your foot in the pedal.

My personal experience is that zip ties work. I have used them from 2010 till now. In all of those years with various pedals (Shimano, LOOK) and various straps (singles, doubles) and generating over 2,000W and 0ver 350nm of torque on standing starts, I have only had 2 zip ties break on separate occasions, 3 years apart. Here's the thing...I didn't even know they were broken for some time. Both times, I was inspecting my bike and noticed my strap hanging funny and saw that it was being held on by only one zip tie. The system operated just fine with one strap. They reason that they broke was that during installation, I would cinch them down too hard and make them sort of brittle (I often make things gorilla tight). Snug is fine.

Basically, the system works, and works well...for me anyways

There are some purpose-built pedals on the market now that use LOOK cleats:


http://www.exustar.com/2011/pt107tk.html
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Exustar-E-PR.../dp/B004MLIW30

I've heard nothing but good things about these. And they are relatively inexpensive. Not sure how easy they are to find, though. I'd suggest replacing the stock straps with high quality straps like Toshi, Kashimax, or similar.
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Old 10-24-13, 10:12 PM   #32
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Hm my roommate has those pedals. How do you get them stateside? Amazon UK wont ship them here
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Old 10-24-13, 10:42 PM   #33
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The Aussies use zip ties. I have photos of Meares and others equipment.
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Old 10-24-13, 11:25 PM   #34
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http://www.brookscycles.co.uk/velodr...ack-pedal.html

These guys ship stateside...

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Old 10-24-13, 11:27 PM   #35
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The Aussies use zip ties. I have photos of Meares and others equipment.
Us Aussies think that zipties and gaffer tape are the greatest inventions of all time!!

If it can't be fixed with zipties, gaffer tape or wd-40, it can't be fixed!

JMR
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Old 10-24-13, 11:45 PM   #36
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T

And I apologize if I sounded condescending at all. I didn't mean to be. Straps are a learned skill. It's one thing to have someone holding your saddle on the start line while you can lean down and fix the lower pedal carefully and patiently. When you are rolling out and trying to do it, or doing it one handed while holding onto the rail with one hand, it can be a pain. Definitely spend the money on high quality laminated straps like the MKS Fit-alpha because if nothing else they tend not to flop as easily. And if you fit a double it definitely makes it easier to slip your foot in. The thing about doubles is that you need to engineer a second bracket for the second strap or they sometimes have a tendency to slip around, and if you have small feet, you simply don't have enough real estate on top to accommodate both straps. Oh, and if you have BOA fasteners or buckles on the lower part of your lacing, they get in the way of the second strap.
No, all good... you didn't sound condecending at all.

The problem I tend to have is as I flip the pedal over with my foot, I catch the strap, but the pedal over rotates and ends up upside down. I know it is just practice that is required.

I have the MKS single straps. They were pricey but I was told that I was wasting my time with anything else.

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Old 10-25-13, 09:46 AM   #37
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The problem I tend to have is as I flip the pedal over with my foot, I catch the strap, but the pedal over rotates and ends up upside down. I know it is just practice that is required.
try not flipping the pedal over like on the road..
instead- when the pedal comes through the bottom of the rotation, slip your foot into the strap. once you get your foot into the strap that flips the pedal- then you just step in..
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Old 10-25-13, 03:30 PM   #38
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For a close up of Hoy's strap arrangement take a look at:
http://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/exclus...rack-bike.html
It looks like a bracket bolted through the back of the Shimano Dura Ace clip. If the plastic bits are strong enough for him it should do for most mortals.
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Old 10-25-13, 05:24 PM   #39
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Us Aussies think that zipties and gaffer tape are the greatest inventions of all time!!

If it can't be fixed with zipties, gaffer tape or wd-40, it can't be fixed!

JMR
You forgot pb blaster. Also:

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Old 10-27-13, 03:48 PM   #40
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For a close up of Hoy's strap arrangement take a look at:
http://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/exclus...rack-bike.html
It looks like a bracket bolted through the back of the Shimano Dura Ace clip. If the plastic bits are strong enough for him it should do for most mortals.
That's really logical and well thought out. The harder you pull up, the harder the engagement of the clip in part. Pretty much no chance of coming out unless you cleats are stuffed!
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Old 10-27-13, 06:20 PM   #41
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That's really logical and well thought out. The harder you pull up, the harder the engagement of the clip in part. Pretty much no chance of coming out unless you cleats are stuffed!
Yeah, it's nice. Matt Baranoski's dad (an engineer by trade) made something similar for Matt a couple of years ago for use with LOOK KEO MAX 2 pedals. Matt uses a single strap every time I've seen him ride (in person and in most photos. There are a few older photos with him using doubles).

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