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-   -   Trainer for standing starts/sprints (http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/921888-trainer-standing-starts-sprints.html)

JMR 12-08-13 05:11 PM

So... who's got a Cateye CS-1000 they want to sell then?

:)

JMR

carleton 02-25-14 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jods (Post 16307883)
If I remember right Matt Crampton pretty much exploded the fan on one of the early Loughborough Cateye Replicas, when doing a max sprint effort.
Think they had a bit of a redesign, and I've seen 2 or 3 of these around the stores at the velodrome.
We had a phase where we were buying the all the cateyes we could find when they appeared on Ebay, in the space of a few months 5 or 6 came on. Still the nicest feeling trainer I've used.
Screams like a banshee at full power though!

Found the pic!

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1058/...510d153f_o.jpg

TrackMonkey7 11-28-14 12:22 PM

I'm gonna go ahead an resurrect this thread for the sake of asking a simple, but related question. I just got myself a Kurt Kinetic mag trainer with adjustable resistance. There's a lot of slip when I do sprint intervals, and 3M grip tape was suggested, at the expense of chewing up your tires. Are there any solutions that improve grip but don't chew up tires?

Minion1 11-28-14 05:35 PM

Some roadies use the widest possible tyres they can find and run them at lower pressure to increase the contact patch/resistance, that may b worth a go.

slindell 11-29-14 09:11 PM

trainer tire kept clean is the first step. Reports are that knurling the roller works well. I just do rollinf starts with the tension wound up. The Lemond and other direct drive trainers avoid the wheel slip issue all together.

carleton 11-29-14 10:01 PM

I use Conti trainer tire and I wipe it with rubbing alcohol before use. I've done 2000W on a Cateye with that setup. Around 1200-1500W on any other trainer depending on how much resistance it can offer.

The key is to warm up the trainer tire with rolling efforts before your standing start.

brawlo 12-01-14 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrackMonkey7 (Post 17346427)
Are there any solutions that improve grip but don't chew up tires?

After saying that the grip tape chewed the crap out of my tyre, I just replaced my first tyre after about 2 1/2 years of use (a 25mm Conti GP4000). I think I've averaged about 1 trainer session per week on it and say every second session doing standing starts. In that time, I've amassed a pile of old road tyres, so I'm not too worried about the chewing now. However, the trainer is in my shed and the black mess doesn't worry me too much. If I had it indoors, I might be looking for another solution. When it boils down, the grip tape is relatively cheap and very easy, but a little messy.

TrackMonkey7 12-02-14 02:28 AM

I went and tried the grip tape, and does indeed chew up the tires. But it also works very well! I did a few sprint intervals, and the tire afterwards was smooth, warm and sticky. It seemed to clean off the top layer of rubber. Then, after some standing starts (only three from an enduro), I found the tire had striations and some granules from the grip tape. The tape itself had actually started to wear all the way through!

At this point, I have seven spare road tires to use, and only a few feet of grip tape. I'm more concerned about how much tape I'll need, rather than tires!

Owen21 12-02-14 01:06 PM

Thoughts on the elite qubo fluid trainer anyone?

carleton 12-02-14 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owen21 (Post 17356770)
Thoughts on the elite qubo fluid trainer anyone?

In my opinion: Fluid trainers in general are not good for track training.

Most track training requires instant on and off resistance. This is easier with a mag trainer (by turning the dial on and off) than with fluid trainers. Also, using fluid trainers use exponential resistance (to simulate wind resistance which is also exponential) and you regulate this using the gears of your road bike. So, for steady-state efforts using a road bike, then it's good. But, for track type training using track bikes (or road bikes) a mag (or friction) trainer is preferred...and they are less expensive.

Quinn8it 12-02-14 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrackMonkey7 (Post 17355420)
Then, after some standing starts (only three from an enduro), I found the tire had striations and some granules from the grip tape. The tape itself had actually started to wear all the way through!

I will throw this out there- knowing full well that its my opinion (and my coaches), and not shared by the majority of people here... maybe not anyone but me...
(/Disclaimer)
Standing Starts on a trainer are a massive waist of time- and apparently Tires

Practicing Standing Starts is Technique Practice... you develop the strength elsewhere..
If your technique practice does not exactly simulate the thing you are practicing, its not worth doing. The fact that your bike stands still, totally changing hip drive and bike throw/swing makes it useless IMHO

Velocirapture 12-03-14 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 17357087)
I will throw this out there- knowing full well that its my opinion (and my coaches), and not shared by the majority of people here... maybe not anyone but me...
(/Disclaimer)
Standing Starts on a trainer are a massive waist of time- and apparently Tires

Practicing Standing Starts is Technique Practice... you develop the strength elsewhere..
If your technique practice does not exactly simulate the thing you are practicing, its not worth doing. The fact that your bike stands still, totally changing hip drive and bike throw/swing makes it useless IMHO

I agree with you here, Quinn. Both from a muscle-group/ nervous system training exercise for, specifically, standing starts, and also from the on-track technique aspect of holding the line, entering the turn etc. (depending on how long your 'start' effort is). Don't underestimate the details of the 'ride' itself, separate from just putting down max power.

That said, they are definitely better than nothing.
Flat road 'standing' starts also miss the fine-tuning, but are prolly better than the trainer.
ah, in a perfect world.. :)

Baby Puke 12-03-14 08:59 AM

I agree with Quinn, too. It's not the same. I've heard of people in colder climates doing starts in parking garages in winter, so there are work-arounds.

carleton 12-03-14 09:10 AM

I'll beg to differ...sort of.

Using most trainers, it's not that effective. But, if you use the right trainers, it can be VERY effective. I've used the Cateye CS1000 and the Cycleops PT200 for starts and both were phenomenal for training the first 5 pedal strokes of the standing start.

Trust me, I've tried all of the trainers out there. I also trained for a season under the guy that has, hands-down, the best standing start of any Master in the US and he can hang with Elites.

Getting to a track when the season is about to open is key for fine tuning. But, you can do the majority of standing start work indoors provided you have the right setup.

Quinn8it 12-03-14 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 17358724)
you can do the majority of standing start work indoors provided you have the right setup.

agreed!
assuming this is what you mean:
http://blog.thegymlifestyle.com/wp-c...ed-barbell.jpg

carleton 12-03-14 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 17358837)
agreed!
assuming this is what you mean:
http://blog.thegymlifestyle.com/wp-c...ed-barbell.jpg

Believe it or not, those are not required. Ask Mansker :D

Brian Ratliff 12-03-14 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 17357087)
I will throw this out there- knowing full well that its my opinion (and my coaches), and not shared by the majority of people here... maybe not anyone but me...
(/Disclaimer)
Standing Starts on a trainer are a massive waste of time- and apparently Tires

Practicing Standing Starts is Technique Practice... you develop the strength elsewhere..
If your technique practice does not exactly simulate the thing you are practicing, its not worth doing. The fact that your bike stands still, totally changing hip drive and bike throw/swing makes it useless IMHO

1+

Deadlifts are great for training standing start, IMO. In particular, deads force you to figure out what to do with your back. My starts got a lot faster when I started focusing on using my back to drive my legs from the hip on the first couple pedal strokes. Before deadlifts, I was trying to generate more power by focusing on pulling up with the returning leg. Didn't work well and I started tweaking the tendons behind my knee besides (also, my rear wheel would tend to lift). Focusing on driving the downstroke from the hip did wonders to clean up my starts.

I also agree that not having a real bike under you to take care of the dynamics of producing force while balanced on two wheels is detrimental. To mirror a comment I made on this thread last year, just find a flat road a quarter mile long and train standing starts there. I've gone so far as to bring rollers so I can warm up beside my car. You can even do this with a brakeless track bike, though I'd suggest a front brake just to be on the safe side.

Brian Ratliff 12-03-14 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 17358862)
Believe it or not, those are not required. Ask Mansker :D

Mansker was a bit of a natural talent, and he apparently disliked weight training. In an alternate universe, there's a possibility he could have been even faster...

Quinn8it 12-03-14 11:58 AM

Power Cleans are great for traing the hip drive as well

carleton 12-03-14 01:24 PM

My point is that there are multiple ways to train the systems involved.

It's my understanding that Espinoza wasn't a big lifter either. At least back in 2010 before his break. But, based on photos, I think he may have started lifting. His legs seem to be bulkier with more definition. Before he was lean like a roadie.

Velocirapture 12-04-14 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff (Post 17359121)
1+

Deadlifts are great for training standing start, IMO. In particular, deads force you to figure out what to do with your back. My starts got a lot faster when I started focusing on using my back to drive my legs from the hip on the first couple pedal strokes. Before deadlifts, I was trying to generate more power by focusing on pulling up with the returning leg. Didn't work well and I started tweaking the tendons behind my knee besides (also, my rear wheel would tend to lift). Focusing on driving the downstroke from the hip did wonders to clean up my starts.
.

Well now, you may have just solved my rear-wheel-lifting issue on starts! thanks.

Although i still need to figure out why i sometimes have front wheel lift. :-/

(I have work to do..)

wens 12-04-14 09:36 AM

I bet front wheel lifts because you're bending your arms.

Quinn8it 12-04-14 09:51 AM

Rear wheel lift can be due to your frame being to small..

Velocirapture 12-04-14 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wens (Post 17361406)
I bet front wheel lifts because you're bending your arms.

hmm.. lift happens in the straight, before i start bending my arms (slightly) in the turn for a bit more control.. but maybe i just think this is what i do! - will look out for it, thx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 17361446)
Rear wheel lift can be due to your frame being to small..

Interesting. Why would that be?
My frame def not too small though (have to run a 6cm stem to get a reasonable position) - any other thoughts?

taras0000 12-06-14 05:39 AM

Front wheel lift as you describe is often a symptom of still being too far back. This is where you need to be for the first few pedal strokes, with the weight over the rear wheel, but as your speed increases, you need to even out the weight distribution. Shoot some video of yourself from the infield and take not of your position between front and rear wheels during your start. Compare to video of elites and see how you differ.

Frame to small causing skipping is because the front center is too short and you end up leaning over the front wheel too much, threreby taking weight off the back wheel.


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