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-   -   Trainer for standing starts/sprints (http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/921888-trainer-standing-starts-sprints.html)

JMR 11-11-13 05:46 PM

Trainer for standing starts/sprints
 
We are heading into our summer here in Australia which means lots of rained out track sessions... I am looking to get a trainer that I can put my track bike on and do standing starts and sprint work.

I would love to get a Wattbike, but can't justify the cost.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a trainer that can handle these? About 2000w max power, but mainly something that isn't going to slip during standing start efforts.

I have read that fluid trainers are the way to go... is that correct? Any models that you have used and work well?

Thanks!

JMR

brawlo 11-11-13 08:31 PM

I do standing start work on my Kurt Kinetic with 3M grip tape wrapped around the roller. I can't say that I'm pushing at 2000W, as I've never tested myself. Put enough tension in and I haven't had it slip. It chews the crap out of tyres, but they're old tyres and I can wear them down to the tube anyway. I ran with this after seeing the recommendation on FGF. There was also a guy that had the roller wheel machine knurled to achieve the same result.

Quinn8it 11-11-13 08:46 PM

the trainer for track workouts is not an easy thing..

as Brawlo mentions- you will have to figure out a way to keep the tire from slipping. I don't put out anything like 2000w and i have never had a trainer that did not slip... (i never did the grip tape though)

the other question is fluid vs magnetic resistance.

Brawlo- Are you using a road bike on your Kurt Kinetic?
since the resistance on Fluid trainers goes up with wheel speed- you dont have any control over resistance unless you have a road bike drive train, so you can shift gears..

Magnetic resistance trainers are available with adjustable resistance (kurt kinetic makes a nice one) but they can feel very choppy and may not have the resistance needed for your 2Kw jumps..

brawlo 11-11-13 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16238824)
Brawlo- Are you using a road bike on your Kurt Kinetic?
since the resistance on Fluid trainers goes up with wheel speed- you dont have any control over resistance unless you have a road bike drive train, so you can shift gears..

Yes, my old road bike lives in there permanently these days. Check the UpUpUp site for some sweet workouts for the trainer http://upupup.aboc.com.au/the-book/a...-ergo-sessions

If you have no issues with noise, then the Lemond or BT trainers are good options as well. No worries about slipping wheels either.

Don't forget to get a good fan too. I have a standard household fan, and when the ambient temp is up it really isn't enough to keep you cool. I will be upgrading this summer for certain.

Brian Ratliff 11-11-13 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMR (Post 16238342)
We are heading into our summer here in Australia which means lots of rained out track sessions... I am looking to get a trainer that I can put my track bike on and do standing starts and sprint work.

I would love to get a Wattbike, but can't justify the cost.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a trainer that can handle these? About 2000w max power, but mainly something that isn't going to slip during standing start efforts.

I have read that fluid trainers are the way to go... is that correct? Any models that you have used and work well?

Thanks!

JMR

I just find a stretch of road and do it there, in the rain, if it comes to that. It helps to have a brake, but it is not strictly necessary. Working at intensities higher than VO2max is difficult indoors.

Baby Puke 11-12-13 03:52 PM

I've got a Kurt Kinetic, but it still slips. Also, I don't think a trainer can really replicate a standing start even if you can get it to not slip. There's a lot more to it than just strength and power, like balance and timing, which I don't think a trainer really captures. I agree with the guy above. I heard of people doing starts in a parking garage if the weather was too bad.

Kayce 11-12-13 05:04 PM

Standing start are probably more technique than power. With a trainer you can work power, but it does nothing for technique. There are lots of ways to work power on a trainer that don't start at Zero.

carleton 11-14-13 06:11 PM

Cateye CS-1000 combined with a conti trainer tire.

These are great for low-end standing starts using a track bike. Much better than Kurt Fluid or Mag (I've owned both).

The problem is that they are hard to find as they have been discontinued for several years.

Here is Matt Baranoski using one: http://instagram.com/p/flP17wvxZq/

http://distilleryimage10.ak.instagra...0ae803ad_8.jpg

carleton 11-14-13 06:14 PM

And Chris Hoy (from years ago in his Kilo days) using a Cateye:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3278/2...1e84ac5ed1.jpg

British Cycling later had some trainers custom made that were very similar. I don't have the pic on hand.

carleton 11-14-13 06:28 PM

Also, fluid is not the way to go. Fluid resistance starts low and grows exponentially with speed. For Standing Starts, you want instant max torque. Mag trainers can do this. But, most modern mag trainers don't have enough resistance for a 2,000W start (what roadie needs it, right?). The Cateye CS1000 does.

You may be able to do this with friction spin bikes. A gym quality spin bike can found for relatively cheap used. I've done +2,000W starts on high-end CycleOps spin bikes as well as the Cateye. With the Kurt Mag trainer I could only get to maybe 1,700w using high RPMs. I could never get the torque high enough. The Kurt mag trainer is OK for sustained efforts (flying 30 seconds or more), but not 5-10 second starts.

carleton 11-14-13 06:31 PM

Also, the cateye is preferred because it has a fork stand. You can't do a rigorous standing start when the front wheel is just sitting on a riser block. You will just bounce around.

But, with the fork mounted in the trainer's frame, you can pull your arms off and the bike won't budge :D

Quinn8it 11-15-13 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMR (Post 16238342)
About 2000w max power

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carleton
I've done +2,000W starts

Damn! you two must be doing 10.5s with all those watts!!??

as for the trainers- i have only been able to use them for Kilo warm-ups. where instead of a true jump i ramp the speed before and carry it up for a 30" effort-
All my training is done on an Ergo..

carleton 11-16-13 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16250866)
Damn! you two must be doing 10.5s with all those watts!!??

as for the trainers- i have only been able to use them for Kilo warm-ups. where instead of a true jump i ramp the speed before and carry it up for a 30" effort-
All my training is done on an Ergo..

I've clocked over 2,100W more than once. Just heavy as hell. Speed is about W/kg. I got the watts. I also got the kilograms :D

usheen 12-02-13 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16247531)

British Cycling later had some trainers custom made that were very similar. I don't have the pic on hand.

Any chance you found this pic?:)

carleton 12-02-13 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by usheen (Post 16294510)
Any chance you found this pic?:)

I didn't find the pic yet...but I did find this by Alexader Xydas, a Master of Science - Engineering Design candidate at Loughborough University, in 2010.

Quote:

This project is concerned with the design of a new bicycle trainer in line with certain fundamental specification set out by Team GB Cycling. The baseline commercial system that is currently preffered by Team GB athletes is the Cateye CS-1000 but this system is no longer bing manufactured and Team GB would like to have a replacement, a be-spoke system designed according to key characteristics of the CS-1000 with some improvements.
This seems to be the seminal paper that led to the development of the system that I saw in the photo (that I can't find). Basically, it was a modernized CS-1000. Maybe the unit I saw was the prototype? I do recall it having a "British Cycling" sticker on it.

http://i.imgur.com/HE8u2fu.png

(7MB nerd download)
"Design of a New Bicycle Ergometer"
http://users.teiath.gr/yxydas/Master_Alex_Xydas.pdf

carleton 12-02-13 02:30 PM

Compare that with the CS-1000

http://image.englishmanuals.com/spor...age/598273.jpg

Quinn8it 12-02-13 02:38 PM

This was an attempt at the same design my Minoura. Fluid and adjustable Magnetic resistance.. I had one, and it was good- but slippage was still an issue.. only produced for about a year as far as i know
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...7r26ik_q4ijsPw

carleton 12-02-13 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16294794)
This was an attempt at the same design my Minoura. Fluid and adjustable Magnetic resistance.. I had one, and it was good- but slippage was still an issue.. only produced for about a year as far as i know
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...7r26ik_q4ijsPw

Ha! I didn't know that.

Cateye got the eddy magnetic braking system right on the CS-1000. It is ridiculously strong, which is why sprinters love it. You have to use a trainer tire and alcohol to get the grip right.

The downside is that, because the flywheel is so small, this trainer feels awful compared to modern fluid (or even modern mag) trainers that are smaller and easier to pack.

usheen 12-06-13 02:17 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Looks like Francois Pervis uses the cateye as well. http://t.co/OcPsHftx His tweet translates to "Sprints are hard on cateyes but after two weeks, you fly when you found the wooden track!"

jods 12-06-13 04:46 PM

If I remember right Matt Crampton pretty much exploded the fan on one of the early Loughborough Cateye Replicas, when doing a max sprint effort.
Think they had a bit of a redesign, and I've seen 2 or 3 of these around the stores at the velodrome.
We had a phase where we were buying the all the cateyes we could find when they appeared on Ebay, in the space of a few months 5 or 6 came on. Still the nicest feeling trainer I've used.
Screams like a banshee at full power though!

carleton 12-06-13 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jods (Post 16307883)
If I remember right Matt Crampton pretty much exploded the fan on one of the early Loughborough Cateye Replicas, when doing a max sprint effort.
Think they had a bit of a redesign, and I've seen 2 or 3 of these around the stores at the velodrome.
We had a phase where we were buying the all the cateyes we could find when they appeared on Ebay, in the space of a few months 5 or 6 came on. Still the nicest feeling trainer I've used.
Screams like a banshee at full power though!

Ha! I think I got the last replacement motor unit from Cateye USA back in 2010.

Do you know if the Loughborough replicas available for retail sale or are they made to order for British Cycling.

I removed the fan unit from mine (just 3 screws) and got rid of that sound. I never found use for the fan. I never used the Cateye for any sustained efforts. Just starts and maybe up to 30 second efforts.

For those who don't know, there are 2 resistance units on the Cateye. One side has the Eddy Current magnetic resistance and the other has a basic wind trainer resistance unit. Maybe that was added to provide exponential resistance (the key factor in fluid trainers) for the "real world road feel" while the mag provides linear resistance. It was 2 trainers in one. Basically, if you wanted only exponential resistance then don't flip the lever to activate the magnet.

Wind resistance trainers are still availble today: http://www.cycleops.com/en/products/...d-trainer.html

Trackliche 12-06-13 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16307933)
Ha! I think I got the last replacement motor unit from Cateye USA back in 2010.

Do you know if the Loughborough replicas available for retail sale or are they made to order for British Cycling.

I removed the fan unit from mine (just 3 screws) and got rid of that sound. I never found use for the fan. I never used the Cateye for any sustained efforts. Just starts and maybe up to 30 second efforts.

For those who don't know, there are 2 resistance units on the Cateye. One side has the Eddy Current magnetic resistance and the other has a basic wind trainer resistance unit. Maybe that was added to provide exponential resistance (the key factor in fluid trainers) for the "real world road feel" while the mag provides linear resistance. It was 2 trainers in one. Basically, if you wanted only exponential resistance then don't flip the lever to activate the magnet.

Wind resistance trainers are still availble today: http://www.cycleops.com/en/products/...d-trainer.html


So it's looking like these pro guys are using their track bikes on these trainers. I, and most of the posts I see/recommendations on Up!Up!Up!, use a road bike. What's with that? Carleton- do you use your track bike on the Cateye? What makes it easier to use your track bike on the CS-1000 than a trainer?

-TC

brawlo 12-06-13 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trackliche (Post 16308577)
So it's looking like these pro guys are using their track bikes on these trainers. I, and most of the posts I see/recommendations on Up!Up!Up!, use a road bike. What's with that? Carleton- do you use your track bike on the Cateye? What makes it easier to use your track bike on the CS-1000 than a trainer?

-TC

Having done a few of the UpUpUp sessions on my KK trainer, the road bike allows you to do many varied drills, adjusting the resistance by changing gears. If you just use your track bike you only get one gear and thus one resistance style/curve, really limiting what you can do on the trainer

Quinn8it 12-06-13 10:10 PM

Fluid Trainers don't give you a way to adjust resistance- so you do it with the road bike drivetrain..

Mag Trainers, like the Cat Eye, can have adjustable resistance, usually controlled by a knob mounted on the handlebars. so those can be used with a fixed drivetrain

carleton 12-08-13 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trackliche (Post 16308577)
So it's looking like these pro guys are using their track bikes on these trainers. I, and most of the posts I see/recommendations on Up!Up!Up!, use a road bike. What's with that? Carleton- do you use your track bike on the Cateye? What makes it easier to use your track bike on the CS-1000 than a trainer?

-TC

Yes, I use my track bike on the Cateye.

To replicate standing start efforts on resistance on/off intervals, you need the instant resistance of the mag trainer, not slowly building resistance (as in a fluid trainer).


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