Bike Forums

Bike Forums (http://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area (http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/)
-   -   quick vid of me on the rollers (http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/922597-quick-vid-me-rollers.html)

sbs z31 11-17-13 01:16 PM

quick vid of me on the rollers
 
Hi guys and gals, just wanted to share a video of me training on the rollers with my training/commuter bike. I do feel like the bike is on the small side but I'm currently building a bike in my size. I apologize for the low quality video and any critique/comments is much appreciated!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...52003242340016

WTBATS 11-18-13 02:05 AM

What is it you are actually training?

sbs z31 11-18-13 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WTBATS (Post 16255314)
What is it you are actually training?

I was pretty much just doing one legged drills and sprint intervals that day.

Quinn8it 11-18-13 11:10 AM

I only made it through about 15" of the vid- so I may have missed something...

But the bike looks too small- mostly length. Which looks to be exacerbated by a really short stem? Hard to tell from the angle.

One legged drills are most likely totally useless for anyone's training- but certainly are not needed for track racers- and they are totally pointless on a fixed drivetrain, since the crank comes around if you pull through or not..

I would stick with steady blocks of time at relevant cadences- 100- 120+ rpm
And short burst at high cadences 130+rpm

sbs z31 11-18-13 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16256225)
I only made it through about 15" of the vid- so I may have missed something...

But the bike looks too small- mostly length. Which looks to be exacerbated by a really short stem? Hard to tell from the angle.

One legged drills are most likely totally useless for anyone's training- but certainly are not needed for track racers- and they are totally pointless on a fixed drivetrain, since the crank comes around if you pull through or not..

I would stick with steady blocks of time at relevant cadences- 100- 120+ rpm
And short burst at high cadences 130+rpm

Thanks for the advice on one legged drills with a fixed drivetrain. Yes, I feel the bike is on the small side but its my commuter and training bike for now.

WTBATS 11-18-13 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16256225)
I only made it through about 15" of the vid- so I may have missed something...

But the bike looks too small- mostly length. Which looks to be exacerbated by a really short stem? Hard to tell from the angle.

One legged drills are most likely totally useless for anyone's training- but certainly are not needed for track racers- and they are totally pointless on a fixed drivetrain, since the crank comes around if you pull through or not..

I would stick with steady blocks of time at relevant cadences- 100- 120+ rpm
And short burst at high cadences 130+rpm

Sounds like sound advice to me.

It looks like if you were to go into a tucked aggressive position you might flip over the top of the bike. I don't think a longer stem will fix it, rather a larger bike.

carleton 11-18-13 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16256225)
I only made it through about 15" of the vid- so I may have missed something...

But the bike looks too small- mostly length. Which looks to be exacerbated by a really short stem? Hard to tell from the angle.

One legged drills are most likely totally useless for anyone's training- but certainly are not needed for track racers- and they are totally pointless on a fixed drivetrain, since the crank comes around if you pull through or not..

I would stick with steady blocks of time at relevant cadences- 100- 120+ rpm
And short burst at high cadences 130+rpm

I beg to differ. My training programs from Jennie Reed and Kirk Whiteman* involved one-legged drills. There are muscles used on the upstroke that are available and should be trained just as the others do. Even if that adds 2-3% to your sustained wattage, more is more. As the British Cycling mantra states, (paraphrasing) "Strive for incremental gains...even if it is only 1% at a time."

*(For those who don't know, this is/was Kevin Mansker's coach and trainer).

sbs,

That being said, one-legged drills at low cadences with little resistance is nothing more than warming up one leg at a time. And in this case, you are just showing off. A pool of sweat under the rollers would be more impressive :D

Low resistance rollers are good for a few things:

- Warming up
- Neuromuscular high cadence training (learning to efficiently sustain high cadences from 110-140 for long periods)

Not so good for:

- Fitness
- Power training
- Endurance training
- Power-endurance training

Mag trainers are best for this especially using a track bike with one gear ratio at a time. Fluid trainers are good too. But, it's hard to set the right resistance at the desired cadence with fluid using a fixed gear. It's easier to manage that using a geared bike on a fluid trainer.

As Quinn noted, your cadences are too low. NOTHING on the track happens under 100RPM. Casual race pace ("sitting in" the pack) is around 110-120...then it goes up from there.

I also agree that your reach is short for racing. It may be comfortable for commuting, but you either need a longer stem or a longer frame for an optimal position. Bear in mind that what's good for commuting is usually not good for racing and vice-versa. I've seen kids with their "race position" fixies with their bars so low that they are underneath the tire line. Their heads are so low that they can't look around in traffic. So, for commuting, upright is better. This is internet bike fitting: Maybe a larger frame with 2 stem/handlebar setups, risers for commuting (to get you upright) and drops for racing (to get you low).

sbs z31 11-18-13 08:00 PM

Carleton, thanks for the sound advices! Yes, as I stated before the bike is on the small side but this is not the bike I'll be racing with. I'll keep in mind to train at a higher cadence and I absolutely hate using my fluid trainer. It gets boring way too quick on the trainer and I the feeling of just being in a stationary position. I guess I'll just mentally train myself to use it lol.

sbs z31 11-18-13 08:09 PM

Also, once I get my track bike all build up I'm going to pay the lbs to get professionally fitted.

Quinn8it 11-18-13 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16257739)
I beg to differ. My training programs from Jennie Reed and Kirk Whiteman* involved one-legged drills.

Jesus Christ Carleton!
Is there a top level USA sprint coach you haven't worked with?
hope you find what you are looking for...

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16257739)
There are muscles used on the upstroke that are available and should be trained just as the others do. Even if that adds 2-3% to your sustained wattage, more is more. As the British Cycling mantra states, (paraphrasing) "Strive for incremental gains...even if it is only 1% at a time."

ok- my stance on "one leg drills" was more directed at what i saw the OP doing in the video, and training advice given by Friel in the cyclist training bible and people who use power cranks... i don't think there is any benefit to pedal mechanics by riding 1 leg at 90rpm.. I am sure that there are one leg drills that serve a purpose

Now where you and I greatly disagree is the bit about the "incremental gains"-

in my eyes incremental gains- especially in regards to training (not so much for equipment and aero gear) is the last resort in a program, usually to get every bit of potential out of an elite rider. there is so much to be gained from a simple program that most of us could never maximize the potential. I feel that the tricky bits, complex training, complicated gym moves, and tendency to overthink gearing and other minor aspects of bike racing is a distraction from the real reason most of us aren't getting faster... and its likely a tactic used by coaches to justify why your last $400 a month program didn't work, but theirs will...

Nagrom_ 11-18-13 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbs z31 (Post 16257809)
Also, once I get my track bike all build up I'm going to pay the lbs to get professionally fitted.

You should probably get fitted before you buy a bike. No use in investing in the wrong size frame, saddle, bars, stem, etc.

sbs z31 11-18-13 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nagrom_ (Post 16258261)
You should probably get fitted before you buy a bike. No use in investing in the wrong size frame, saddle, bars, stem, etc.

I will certainly do that, thanks!

carleton 11-19-13 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16257961)
Jesus Christ Carleton!
Is there a top level USA sprint coach you haven't worked with?
hope you find what you are looking for...

ok- my stance on "one leg drills" was more directed at what i saw the OP doing in the video, and training advice given by Friel in the cyclist training bible and people who use power cranks... i don't think there is any benefit to pedal mechanics by riding 1 leg at 90rpm.. I am sure that there are one leg drills that serve a purpose

Now where you and I greatly disagree is the bit about the "incremental gains"-

in my eyes incremental gains- especially in regards to training (not so much for equipment and aero gear) is the last resort in a program, usually to get every bit of potential out of an elite rider. there is so much to be gained from a simple program that most of us could never maximize the potential. I feel that the tricky bits, complex training, complicated gym moves, and tendency to overthink gearing and other minor aspects of bike racing is a distraction from the real reason most of us aren't getting faster... and its likely a tactic used by coaches to justify why your last $400 a month program didn't work, but theirs will...

Quinn, I see you taking jabs at me and it's OK. But, it's noted :)

I found what I was looking for...knowledge and wisdom from those who have done way more than I could ever imagine. I came into the sport with an open and curious mind. I've picked the brains of even more coaches and athletes whose programs I didn't follow. I noted the themes, similarities, and differences...and I asked LOTS of questions. I've read many of the books that many coaches cite as their influences (periodization, reverse-periodization, weight training, advanced weight training, track and field athletic training, yadda, yadda). I literally think I've read every thread on FGF. I totally nerd out on this stuff.

I hold USA Cycling Racing, Officials, and (almost) Coaching licenses. I passed the exam for coaching, but I didn't want to pay $100 for the mandatory background check because I had no intention of using the license to work as a coach. I just wanted the information in the coaches license training manuals :D

I have every workout that ever assigned to me. I've reviewed them over and over. I've used a power meter since 2010 and I have just about every power file I've ever created. I've poured over the files. I've talked a bit with Andrew Coggan and Rich Voss about power data. (Voss helped me A LOT just by looking at 1 file of mine. Genius.) I talked a lot with Jeff Hopkins at DLV (this guy -- man, he's lived it all and has stories from the world-level track and roadie world). I've talked to Tiemeyer a whole lot over the years about his experiences and how he does what he does (that guy is a national treasure). When people who knew more than me talked, I listened and took notes :D

I'm an equipment nerd, too. I've raced bikes from the Planet X to the LOOK 496 and many in-between and can give detailed reviews of all of them. I've tried all kinds of cranks, crank lengths, bars, aerobars, etc...to see for myself.

I went all-in...mind, body, soul (and wallet). I was never a "national-level" racer. I never won a national championship, just a couple of team sprint accolades (regional elite championships, masters nationals 4th and 5th, and 1 track record). I came to realize that I was best at standing starts, 30-second power...and eating Oreos :D

So, back on topic...

I don't think Power Cranks were useful either. Those would be on the far end of one-legged drills. The benefits are there, but I think that those limited benefits can be gained quickly. Full-on with power cranks is overkill.

For those wondering, power cranks are a ratched, left-right independent crank system that forces each leg to push/pull the entire pedal stroke independently of each other. Here they are installed on a spin bike for example:


I also agree with you that for beginning athletes, a basic program is best. But, I'd like to stress that getting a proper bike fit and learning the right pedal strokes now will pay off later. If anything, there won't be bad habits that will have to be retrained later. Pros make pedaling look easy because, for them, it is easy. It takes time to learn to make it easy.

Pedal strokes are very important, especially in track racing. I think it was "Issac" on FGF that pointed out 5 or 6 pedal strokes that one might employ on different occasions.

sbs z31 11-19-13 12:32 AM

Carleton, I would so pay you to coach me if I live near by lol.

carleton 11-19-13 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbs z31 (Post 16258417)
Carleton, I would so pay you to coach me if I live near by lol.

:D

Thanks for the kind words!

Quinn8it 11-19-13 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16258401)
Quinn, I see you taking jabs at me and it's OK. But, it's noted :)

Im pretty sure you can handle it.

and- YOU invited me here..

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16258401)
I'd like to stress that getting a proper bike fit and learning the right pedal strokes now will pay off later. If anything, there won't be bad habits that will have to be retrained later. Pros make pedaling look easy because, for them, it is easy. It takes time to learn to make it easy.

I'm pretty sure we agree

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16258401)
for beginning athletes, a basic program is best

Who's taking Jabs at who now? ;)

carleton 11-19-13 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16259416)
Im pretty sure you can handle it.

and- YOU invited me here..

I didn't invite you to come and take pot-shots. You are being catty. This isn't FGF. If you want to do that, go there. I won't let this place turn into a soap opera.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16259416)
Who's taking Jabs at who now? ;)

Agreeing with you is not taking jabs at you.

Quinn8it 11-19-13 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16259679)
I didn't invite you to come and take pot-shots. You are being catty. This isn't FGF. If you want to do that, go there. I won't let this place turn into a soap opera.

Hardly a pot-shot.. just pointing out that you have had a lot of different coaching..
dont read more into it than is there

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16259679)
agreeing with you is not taking jabs at you.

was drawing the conclusion that since i follow and advocate simple programming- you were essentially calling me a "Beginner"
and the wink was because I can take it..

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16259679)
This isn't FGF

clearly- we'd never be allowed this far off topic

sbs z31 11-19-13 12:54 PM

I am a beginner and acknowledge everyone so please let's not turn this into a cat fight. I simply wanted to just post up a quick vid of me ridding/training on my rollers and looking for sound advices. Carlton, I'm planning a family trip to Fresno,CA next summer and was wondering if there's any track you recommend me to go check out and how far of a drive would it be from there to where you race locally? I love meeting new people who share the same passion and interests as I do so the drive would be worth it!

carleton 11-19-13 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16259757)
Hardly a pot-shot.. just pointing out that you have had a lot of different coaching..
dont read more into it than is there


was drawing the conclusion that since i follow and advocate simple programming- you were essentially calling me a "Beginner"
and the wink was because I can take it..


clearly- we'd never be allowed this far off topic

Quinn, I wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16258401)
I also agree with you that for beginning athletes, a basic program is best.

I was backing up your statements:

Quote:

in my eyes incremental gains- especially in regards to training (not so much for equipment and aero gear) is the last resort in a program, usually to get every bit of potential out of an elite rider. there is so much to be gained from a simple program that most of us could never maximize the potential.
I wasn't calling you a beginner.

carleton 11-19-13 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbs z31 (Post 16259811)
Carlton, I'm planning a family trip to Fresno,CA next summer and was wondering if there's any track you recommend me to go check out and how far of a drive would it be from there to where you race locally? I love meeting new people who share the same passion and interests as I do so the drive would be worth it!

I suggest that you start a fresh thread asking that question. Maybe title it something like, "Traveling to Fresno next summer. I'd like to train/race on the track while there. Suggestions?"

I don't know much about the California track scene. I've only been to ADT a few times.

Baby Puke 11-19-13 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbs z31 (Post 16259811)
I am a beginner and acknowledge everyone so please let's not turn this into a cat fight. I simply wanted to just post up a quick vid of me ridding/training on my rollers and looking for sound advices. Carlton, I'm planning a family trip to Fresno,CA next summer and was wondering if there's any track you recommend me to go check out and how far of a drive would it be from there to where you race locally? I love meeting new people who share the same passion and interests as I do so the drive would be worth it!

Sbsz31,

In Fresno you'll be about halfway between Hellyer in San Jose and LA Velodrome, but not really near either. Probably 2-3 hrs from Hellyer and 3-4 hours from LA. Save your pennies for some road trips!

Impreza_aL 11-19-13 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbs z31 (Post 16259811)
I am a beginner and acknowledge everyone so please let's not turn this into a cat fight. I simply wanted to just post up a quick vid of me ridding/training on my rollers and looking for sound advices. Carlton, I'm planning a family trip to Fresno,CA next summer and was wondering if there's any track you recommend me to go check out and how far of a drive would it be from there to where you race locally? I love meeting new people who share the same passion and interests as I do so the drive would be worth it!

hellyer in san jose, ca

we race wedensday and friday nights during the summer. just look at ridethetrack.com for the calender when it gets posted.

as for the rest of you go ride your bike.

sbs z31 11-19-13 04:27 PM

Thanks guys, I'll visit those tracks and probably bring along my track bike as well.

Nagrom_ 11-19-13 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbs z31 (Post 16259811)
I am a beginner and acknowledge everyone so please let's not turn this into a cat fight. I simply wanted to just post up a quick vid of me ridding/training on my rollers and looking for sound advices. Carlton, I'm planning a family trip to Fresno,CA next summer and was wondering if there's any track you recommend me to go check out and how far of a drive would it be from there to where you race locally? I love meeting new people who share the same passion and interests as I do so the drive would be worth it!

You're about a 2.5hr drive from Hellyer, 3hr from Encino, and 3.5hrs from the StubHub(new name change?) velodrome.
I don't know how well acclimated you will be to the track yet, so beginner sessions are on saturday mornings at Hellyer. If you give us a heads up, I'm sure a lot of the BF trackies would try and make it.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:45 AM.