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  1. #1
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    The Golden Cheetah- Track Q&A Thread

    golden Cheetah is a great free training data analysis program
    http://goldencheetah.org

    I have used Golden Cheetah for years and I'm fairly good at analyzing rides and efforts, but i have always used a different program for storage and big picture tracking (training peaks/strava)- now I've got some questions about some of the more advanced features..

    there are tons of threads on the Net about GC, lots of good info out there, but very little of it is aimed at track racers.

    So, If you have a track focused question about GC ask it here. If you have a general question about GC and don't trust Skinny Roadies (or worse- Triathletes!!) ask it here.
    If you are a GC Vet and you have tips or links for us newbs- please post those here!

    thanks!!!

  2. #2
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    TSS for Strength Training

    ill kick it off with this:

    Strava recently added a "Fitness/Freshness" chart similar to the PMC on Golden Cheetah. I was able to follow the chart as i built and tapered for my last event of the year. It was fairly interesting following my level of fitness and fatigue and watching where it was as i peaked. the problem is- As a track sprinter a large amount of my volume during the week is heavy strength training. Strava makes no allowances for any activity that does not use a power meter. While I'm sure i could still get a sense of how my "Fitness" would read even without strength workouts playing a role- i would like to try to add them in.

    Most of the info on this in other forums (slow twitch) draws the conclusion that strength training is not bike training and not much benefit to cycling- so they recommend omitting the data.. I really think Track Sprinting is a discipline where Strength Training is a big factor.. and its a big constant that i can manipulate in my program as i drop volume at peak time- so i would like to be able to give it a value...

    My question-
    does anyone have a good system or guess at TSS numbers for weight work?
    I currently do "the Texas Method" which has a huge hard day- an easy day and an intensity day..
    I have played around with adding the sum of all weight moved from warm-up to work sets and while i feel that gave me a good structure for the relationship percentage wise between my different weight days- im not sure where to set TSS for my big volume day..

    thanks for any help!
    Last edited by Quinn8it; 11-26-13 at 11:31 AM.

  3. #3
    VeloSIRraptor
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Ok- Looks like nobody is tracking fitness/fatigue?

    i went ahead and worked out a system for myself- basically a spread sheet that takes the total of pounds moved from warm-up to work sets and divides that by bodyweight- then multiplied it by an amount that yielded a number that seemed relevant based on perceived exertion.. i assume that the consistency of the calculation is more important than the actual meaning of the number.. so if i stick with this formula at least its constant..

    so- here is a shot of my calculator. Its set up for a typical "A" day of Starting Strength for a 175lb person with a Squat work-set of 285lbs and a dead lift set of 315lbs... yields a Training Stress Score of 122

    Screenshot+2013-11-27+at+5.20.33+PM.png
    ill stop talking to myself now

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Ok- Looks like nobody is tracking fitness/fatigue?
    Don't do any off bike work, so no need to manually calculate...
    http://climbinglama.blogspot.com.au

  6. #6
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    sounds like a cycling-physiology group discussion.

    i also don't do any off the bike work out. i should since i enjoy doing sprint type races.
    fried chicken and waffles.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
    Don't do any off bike work, so no need to manually calculate...
    ok- thanks..
    i don't think I anticipated how obscure my question was...

    -Q

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Thanks Carleton! That's a good thread.

    I was hoping to create a thread focused on the different analysis needs of track racers..

    Would you be willing to post up some of your techniques for short interval analysis? Particularly flying 200m and Standing Starts?

    Thank you.

    -Q

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impreza_aL View Post
    I just joined up. Interesting topic just started very relevant - Hard evidence for weight training for track sprints?

    Article linked in the discussion.

    http://bretcontreras.com/should-we-t...er-production/
    http://climbinglama.blogspot.com.au

  11. #11
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
    I just joined up. Interesting topic just started very relevant - Hard evidence for weight training for track sprints?

    Article linked in the discussion.

    http://bretcontreras.com/should-we-t...er-production/
    whats the verdict on that one?

    lots of good studies linked in the article..
    honestly some of the best point of view though was from one of the commenters:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Horton
    You want to know the “dirty little secret” to how I get my athletes to jump higher and sprint faster? I make them add plates to the bar! It’s a rare athlete that is too strong. Most young athletes are both slow AND wimpy.
    30% of 1RM really seams way too low for much of anything..

  12. #12
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Anyone got any insight/tips on getting started with AeroLab?

    I would like to go down to VSC (indoor wood 250m) and run some test on wheels... especially my 5-spoke versus my Front Disc..

    thanks

    -Q

  13. #13
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Anyone got any insight/tips on getting started with AeroLab?

    I would like to go down to VSC (indoor wood 250m) and run some test on wheels... especially my 5-spoke versus my Front Disc..

    thanks

    -Q
    Is that the virtual elevation testing software? If it is, I'd search slowtwitch, there have been some pretty complete threads on the topic over there, and RChung even weighed in on some of them.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  14. #14
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Thanks Carleton! That's a good thread.

    I was hoping to create a thread focused on the different analysis needs of track racers..

    Would you be willing to post up some of your techniques for short interval analysis? Particularly flying 200m and Standing Starts?

    Thank you.

    -Q
    Sorry, I missed this question a month ago.

    I like to keep track of Torque which is basically how hard I'm pressing on the pedals. I like to analyze my torque numbers for my standing starts.

    When I analyze the Flying 200M, I use a custom graph that plots Torque vs Cadence. I want to see how hard I'm pushing on the pedals at 120-140 RPM.

    There is a sweet spot when the gear is not too light or too heavy and you have the right mix of torque and legspeed, that's when you get a boost in power and you surge faster.

    Torque is the reason behind the move to longer crank arms and larger gears for sprinters over the years. The sprinters aren't getting that much stronger (if at all) and the bikes aren't getting that much more aero. The cranks are getting longer and the sprinters are learning how to spin those longer cranks.

    Last edited by carleton; 12-27-13 at 03:31 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Anyone got any insight/tips on getting started with AeroLab?

    I would like to go down to VSC (indoor wood 250m) and run some test on wheels... especially my 5-spoke versus my Front Disc..
    The smaller the difference you're trying to detect, the more care you need to take in the testing. If there are other riders on the track your data won't be very clean; whether it's clean enough depends both on how many other riders there are and the size of the difference you're trying to measure. Do this just to begin: stick with one wheel and see whether you can get the same estimated CdA over a few laps. If you can, you have a hope to be able to detect a difference between that wheel and another but if you can't replicate the same CdA then your data are too noisy.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RChung View Post
    The smaller the difference you're trying to detect, the more care you need to take in the testing. If there are other riders on the track your data won't be very clean; whether it's clean enough depends both on how many other riders there are and the size of the difference you're trying to measure. Do this just to begin: stick with one wheel and see whether you can get the same estimated CdA over a few laps. If you can, you have a hope to be able to detect a difference between that wheel and another but if you can't replicate the same CdA then your data are too noisy.
    Thanks for the help!

    I will need to do some research and get myself up to speed on Aerolab.. also it appears Aerolab is not on my most recent version of GC? (nov 5th 2013)

    as for the track and wheel testing- i can usually get the track to myself, at least for blocks of effort.. so doing uninterrupted laps at the pole lane is not a problem.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    I will need to do some research and get myself up to speed on Aerolab.. also it appears Aerolab is not on my most recent version of GC? (nov 5th 2013)
    Click on "View-> Add Chart". You ought to see it there.

    as for the track and wheel testing- i can usually get the track to myself, at least for blocks of effort.. so doing uninterrupted laps at the pole lane is not a problem.
    Woah. That's nice. Lucky you.

    I generally tell people to do this five-minute test, just so they understand what they need to do. For this, you don't need to go to the track, or do anything fancy. Just find a nearby quiet street. Ride a couple of times either up and down the street or perhaps around the block holding your position fixed down in the drops; then sit up with your hands on the bar tops for another couple of laps or loops. Download the data and look at it with Aerolab. You ought to be able to see the difference between down in the drops and up on the bar tops. If you hit the brakes, you ought to be able to see a little jump in the "virtual elevation." If a car passes, you ought to see that. If the wind is blowing you ought to be able to see a difference in one direction vs. the other. If there's a little hill, you ought to be able to see that.

    In general, the smaller the difference you're trying to measure, the more careful you'll need to be. When you get serious, you'll need to be pretty obsessive about tiny details but this five minute test will give you an idea of how sensitive the method is.

    Last year when I was at the VSC checking out the real-time system we suddenly got a jump in the measured CdA in the middle of a run. Someone had opened the rolling door to the loading dock and the change in air density screwed up the test. We had to wait until they were finished loading in whatever they were doing, then we had to wait another 10 minutes for the air density to return to normal, then the measured CdA went back to where it was.

    BTW, as you set up your own draft in the velodrome, your effective CdA will drop. This means the first few laps will show slightly higher CdA than subsequent laps.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RChung View Post
    Click on "View-> Add Chart". You ought to see it there.
    Yep- got it

    Quote Originally Posted by RChung View Post
    Woah. That's nice. Lucky you.
    actually- i work in the evenings- and i find that the weekday morning sessions at VSC are nearly empty, and i know the guys well enough to ask for some space if i need to get something done..

    Quote Originally Posted by RChung View Post
    I generally tell people to do this five-minute test, just so they understand what they need to do. For this, you don't need to go to the track, or do anything fancy. Just find a nearby quiet street. Ride a couple of times either up and down the street or perhaps around the block holding your position fixed down in the drops; then sit up with your hands on the bar tops for another couple of laps or loops. Download the data and look at it with Aerolab. You ought to be able to see the difference between down in the drops and up on the bar tops. If you hit the brakes, you ought to be able to see a little jump in the "virtual elevation." If a car passes, you ought to see that. If the wind is blowing you ought to be able to see a difference in one direction vs. the other. If there's a little hill, you ought to be able to see that.
    I will try to give this a try soon..

    any links to basic "How To" on AeroLab? so i don't have to ask the truck load of stupid questions i will have as i try to figure this out..

    my initial project with this would be trying to test a few wheel sets..
    -I have a set of generic carbon 88mm's that i use for mass start and TT back-up wheels- that id like to get a base-line from.
    -I have a Rear Disc, Front 5-Spoke, and Front Disc and id like to see how they compare to the 88's and which front wheel is faster at VSC for Kilo.

    thanks for all your help on this!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    any links to basic "How To" on AeroLab? so i don't have to ask the truck load of stupid questions i will have as i try to figure this out..
    You can get some tips here.

  20. #20
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    On a related note:

    About 2 years ago I saw a GoPro type video of a guy in a scratch local race. The cool thing was that the video had an overlay of the data from his power meter. So, during the replay, you could see the guy's real-time power, speed, cadence data in sort of a tachometer format. Similar to this F1 screen cap:



    It was a great video that showed what it took to hang in a race like that.

    Does anyone happen have that video bookmarked?

  21. #21
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    I haven't seen a track race but if you look up DataDrivenAthlete.com on youtube or off the site there are bunch of road races. [edit with SW pointer] Found the SW to do the overlay at http://dashware.net/ - the homepage has a screenshot from one of the videos. It looks like there are some other options out there to do similar overlays.
    Last edited by slindell; 01-02-14 at 04:50 PM. Reason: add sw link

  22. #22
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slindell View Post
    I haven't seen a track race but if you look up DataDrivenAthlete.com on youtube or off the site there are bunch of road races. [edit with SW pointer] Found the SW to do the overlay at http://dashware.net/ - the homepage has a screenshot from one of the videos. It looks like there are some other options out there to do similar overlays.
    That's it!

    I found this one, but it's not a POV camera:




    Here is a road ride with the POV camera and the overlay that is similar to that which I remember:

    Imagine this type of on-bike camera and this overlay but of a track racer and also showing cadence.

  23. #23
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Anyone got any insight/tips on getting started with AeroLab?

    I would like to go down to VSC (indoor wood 250m) and run some test on wheels... especially my 5-spoke versus my Front Disc..

    thanks

    -Q
    Front disc indoors. There's a ton of data out there that I've seen and if you add everything in (relative wind + rotational drag + friction) you can't beat a well set up disc. At speed the lack of open space in the wheel requires a lot of effort to turn so they steer slow. That's OK and even good for pursuit events but not so great for mass start stuff, not sure about their legality in things like the kilo or 200.

    There's a lot of wheel data out there from tunnels, but be aware that spoke count and type/length will change the sum total of the parts. Tires and tire temp also factor in, sometimes a lot. And of course tire pressure.

    Mr. Chung is correct in that testing at VSC requires "clean" air. I've used Jim's testing set up and it's very good. I've also done my own testing during morning and 4-7 sessions. The minute other riders are on the track your consistency goes away.

    The best VSC wheel/tire might be the best Encino set up on a given day, or the worst if the wind changes. Generally I try to find the best for VSC, and a happy spot/range for Encino and San Diego for that day.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    That's it!

    I found this one, but it's not a POV camera:

    Thanks for posting this. Had just got back from Europe so didn't race that one, but this is my local indoor track I normally race Tuesday nights and on searching through his videos found one I'm in...

    Was in a short lived two man break at the 9min mark but it unfortunately didn't stick. My mate Cam was up the track in the final laps so I soft pedaled when on the front but also in the end I should have moved up earlier as gaps opened and I was too far back; made up heaps of ground but only came in 5th. I'm in the red skinsuit and running a disc.

    http://climbinglama.blogspot.com.au

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Mr. Chung is correct in that testing at VSC requires "clean" air. I've used Jim's testing set up and it's very good. I've also done my own testing during morning and 4-7 sessions. The minute other riders are on the track your consistency goes away.
    That's true not just about VSC but all field testing where you're looking for small differences. It's actually a pretty good thing: it means that the method is sensitive enough to pick up small things. If you happen to know what the small disturbance is (like, another rider entering the track, or a passing car when you're on the road, or a change in the road surface, or a brief use of the brakes) then that can provide an "anchor point" to assess how precise the rest of the measurements are. In the loading dock example, we'd been testing for maybe 45 minutes or so and getting solid results then all of a sudden the CdA went wacko and we thought at first that the power meter had somehow gone bad. The one of the guys looked up and saw that the loading dock door was open. Then we waited until the door closed and about 10 minutes later the air density went back to what it was before and so did the CdA. That was pretty cool.

    [Edited to add:] Same thing can happen with wind tunnels. I was observing some tests at a wind tunnel a couple of months ago and needed to go to the bathroom but was told that we had to stay inside the control room until the test was done because opening the door to the control room would alter the flow back through the fans and screw up the precision. This was an open return tunnel and they had big wooden crates stacked around the outside of the test section because they found out that it helped condition the flow.
    Last edited by RChung; 01-03-14 at 12:03 PM.

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