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-   -   Ask your small, random, track-related questions here (http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/924726-ask-your-small-random-track-related-questions-here.html)

Kayce 01-07-14 04:33 PM

What are your favorite 333m or 1/5 mi velodromes shape wise? Not necessarily surface or anything else. Just the shape.

carleton 01-07-14 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kayce (Post 16391473)
What are your favorite 333m or 1/5 mi velodromes shape wise? Not necessarily surface or anything else. Just the shape.

I prefer "bowl" shaped like TTown and Colorado Springs. Easier to hold the line at high speeds and less G forces in the turns. Time Trialing is easier, too. Easier to hold a steady pace when you aren't slamming into corners like at DLV which is 327M, but "cigar" shaped.

DLV is pretty much made like a steep 250M track where the straights were stretched longer. Great for passing. Get lots of momentum diving off of turns 2 or 4 and long straights to complete the pass before turns 1 or 3. But, at high speeds, it's hard to hold the perfect line.

zizou 01-07-14 06:16 PM

For pursuits i was given some advice to drift towards the black line going into the bend and drift up towards the red on the straight (in effect leveling out the corner slightly). I noticed in the Rotterdam 6 day racing Iljo Keisse when attacking was doing something similar but in a greater way - he was going up to the blue stayers line on the straights (It wasn't in preperation for a changeover or to avoid traffic it was happening when he had empty track in front too). I've not seen other riders do it to this extent before so was wondering if it an unusual tactic that Keisse was using or something that i should have noticed before if i'd been paying attention more closely! :o

Brian Ratliff 01-07-14 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zizou (Post 16391780)
For pursuits i was given some advice to drift towards the black line going into the bend and drift up towards the red on the straight (in effect leveling out the corner slightly). I noticed in the Rotterdam 6 day racing Iljo Keisse when attacking was doing something similar but in a greater way - he was going up to the blue stayers line on the straights (It wasn't in preperation for a changeover or to avoid traffic it was happening when he had empty track in front too). I've not seen other riders do it to this extent before so was wondering if it an unusual tactic that Keisse was using or something that i should have noticed before if i'd been paying attention more closely! :o

You see this with sprinters. You accelerate up the bank and then down into the corner. Speed wise, you don't really lose much because you always return to zero elevation, but because you spend some time going up hill, it acts kind of like up shifting on a geared bike; your cadence can slow a bit and you can put more torque into the pedals. And remember, you get your speed right back once you go back down track.

queerpunk 01-07-14 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zizou (Post 16391780)
For pursuits i was given some advice to drift towards the black line going into the bend and drift up towards the red on the straight (in effect leveling out the corner slightly). I noticed in the Rotterdam 6 day racing Iljo Keisse when attacking was doing something similar but in a greater way - he was going up to the blue stayers line on the straights (It wasn't in preperation for a changeover or to avoid traffic it was happening when he had empty track in front too). I've not seen other riders do it to this extent before so was wondering if it an unusual tactic that Keisse was using or something that i should have noticed before if i'd been paying attention more closely! :o

for pursuits, that line of going up to the sprint line on the straights is definitely helpful. on steep velodromes (especially when you're tired) it can be a bit hard to anticipate the turn; if you drift uptrack in a turn, you gain elevation, and that means you lose speed. going to the black on the straights makes it easier to manage your elevation and prevent the loss of speed that happens when you hit a turn & flick upward a bit.

in six-days, there are a couple things to remember. one is that they're riding short velodromes. rotterdam is 200m, and a lot of those guys are used to even shorter. i think the kuipke in ghent is 150 or something like that. so, that "even elevation" line can be a bit more pronounced and noticeable on these short tracks.

the second thing to remember is that they're showing off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff (Post 16392084)
You see this with sprinters. You accelerate up the bank and then down into the corner. Speed wise, you don't really lose much because you always return to zero elevation, but because you spend some time going up hill, it acts kind of like up shifting on a geared bike; your cadence can slow a bit and you can put more torque into the pedals. And remember, you get your speed right back once you go back down track.

there's another thing to do that's not so much about changing your speed and elevation; there's also trying to keep it consistent by varying your lateral location on the track; when i'm tired and saving every ounce of energy while in relief in a madison, i go to the rail on the straights, and then when the track lifts up in the corners, i head down to the stayer's line; and then back to the rail on the next straight. i try to ride a line that is all at a consistent elevation.

carleton 01-07-14 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff (Post 16392084)
You see this with sprinters. You accelerate up the bank and then down into the corner. Speed wise, you don't really lose much because you always return to zero elevation, but because you spend some time going up hill, it acts kind of like up shifting on a geared bike; your cadence can slow a bit and you can put more torque into the pedals. And remember, you get your speed right back once you go back down track.

I've seen Pursuiters do it too. The guy that won the US IP in 2012 (Lieberman?) did it every lap at HDC.

Baby Puke 01-08-14 12:21 PM

Ok, this is something I've been wondering about for a while. For you kilo guys and team sprinters: Grip. Where do you hold the bars for standing starts?

I've done some experimentation and it seems to help out of the hole if you hold the bars significantly further back from where you would normally grip. Problem is, ideal grip for the first couple of pedal strokes is not ideal by the time you reach the first corner, and is horrible by the time you exit the second corner. I've been doing a compromise grip and then shifting the grip forward after I sit. What are others doing with this?

Thanks.

Brian Ratliff 01-08-14 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 16392150)
...
there's another thing to do that's not so much about changing your speed and elevation; there's also trying to keep it consistent by varying your lateral location on the track; when i'm tired and saving every ounce of energy while in relief in a madison, i go to the rail on the straights, and then when the track lifts up in the corners, i head down to the stayer's line; and then back to the rail on the next straight. i try to ride a line that is all at a consistent elevation.

This works only if you are committed to not being anywhere close to the sprinters lane. After all, the elevation change on the pursuit line is pretty much zero.

The straightforward explanation is simply that the rider is trying to make the track more like a circle than an oval. Riding that line makes the entry line into the turns straighter. For some riders, it might also be that exiting the turn wide simply allows them to apply more power as they don't have to "flip" their bike vertical as fast as they exit the turn.

carleton 01-08-14 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 16393790)
Ok, this is something I've been wondering about for a while. For you kilo guys and team sprinters: Grip. Where do you hold the bars for standing starts?

I've done some experimentation and it seems to help out of the hole if you hold the bars significantly further back from where you would normally grip. Problem is, ideal grip for the first couple of pedal strokes is not ideal by the time you reach the first corner, and is horrible by the time you exit the second corner. I've been doing a compromise grip and then shifting the grip forward after I sit. What are others doing with this?

Thanks.

You are right.

Some say that the ideal grip for the standing start is to have the hands as close to the body as possible, similar to the deadlift. This is why the Easton EC90 and other sprint bars have such long grip areas. This is also why standing starts generally suck using aero bars...because the hands are further away.

I also noticed the difference when I went from the EC90s (which are a carbon replica of the B123) to using B125s which have a shorter grip area. I missed the long grip.

I switch grips, from back to forward, when I exit turn 2 around the same time that I get that boost of speed.

But I guess it's a personal preference. Here are the Aussies. You can see the differences. I have a suspiscion that Perkins (man1) moves his hands up after the start. But, I can't find a pic of him finishing the lap.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...43_964x643.jpg
http://london2012.olympics.com.au/im...ckMenSpeed.jpg

Brian Ratliff 01-08-14 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 16393790)
Ok, this is something I've been wondering about for a while. For you kilo guys and team sprinters: Grip. Where do you hold the bars for standing starts?

I've done some experimentation and it seems to help out of the hole if you hold the bars significantly further back from where you would normally grip. Problem is, ideal grip for the first couple of pedal strokes is not ideal by the time you reach the first corner, and is horrible by the time you exit the second corner. I've been doing a compromise grip and then shifting the grip forward after I sit. What are others doing with this?

Thanks.

One thing I really paid attention to when setting up my (sprint oriented) track bike was the, I'll call it "center of pull", of the bars relative to the tire contact patch. I adjust the stem length to make sure the spot where I grip the bars is directly in vertical line with the tire contact patch so I don't get steering inputs when I pull really hard. If your center of pull is behind the tire contact, you'll get a "wheelbarrow" effect, and if in front, you'll get swerving. If directly in vertical line, you'll just be trying to pull the tire sideways and the steering inputs will be minimal.

Baby Puke 01-08-14 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16393928)
You are right.

Some say that the ideal grip for the standing start is to have the hands as close to the body as possible, similar to the deadlift. This is why the Easton EC90 and other sprint bars have such long grip areas. This is also why standing starts generally suck using aero bars...because the hands are further away.

I also noticed the difference when I went from the EC90s (which are a carbon replica of the B123) to using B125s which have a shorter grip area. I missed the long grip.

I switch grips, from back to forward, when I exit turn 2 around the same time that I get that boost of speed.

But I guess it's a personal preference. Here are the Aussies. You can see the differences. I have a suspiscion that Perkins (man1) moves his hands up after the start. But, I can't find a pic of him finishing the lap.

Yeah, it just seems awkward and bobble-inducing to change the grip while still standing. Just something that needs practice?

carleton 01-08-14 01:30 PM

The Scattos are a great Sprint bar for the reasons I noted above. Notice the following on Scattos:

- The grip area is long allowing for the hands to come close to the hips for the standing start.
- The grips are V-shaped. They narrow about -2cm when you shift your hands forward. So, they measure 37cm at the bar ends...but 35cm at the front of the grip area. This sort of forms your forearms into a V shape.
- There is a notch at the front of the grip area that matches where your thumb and index finger meet. So, if you move your hands all the way up, you complete the aero tuck.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...aphy/10511.jpg

vs

http://cyclingtips.com.au/wp-content...6/ONEV2978.jpg

These are all minor things. But, if you are looking for 1% gains, here they are :D

carleton 01-08-14 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 16393941)
Yeah, it just seems awkward and bobble-inducing to change the grip while still standing. Just something that needs practice?

Do it when you sit and setting into your tuck as you max out your cadence. But, I've done it while I'm entering the turn before I sit.

Jaytron 01-08-14 01:50 PM

About how much slower is one expected to run during offseason in a flying 200?

Baby Puke 01-08-14 03:31 PM

Don't be alarmed if its a lot! Presumably you are working on strength, not in race wheels/gear and its cold out. The cold is huge. Don't sweat it, in fact, I woildn't even bother getting times in January or February.

carleton 01-08-14 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaytron (Post 16394036)
About how much slower is one expected to run during offseason in a flying 200?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 16394364)
Don't be alarmed if its a lot! Presumably you are working on strength, not in race wheels/gear and its cold out. The cold is huge. Don't sweat it, in fact, I woildn't even bother getting times in January or February.

+1

Early season times can't be used as a predictor of anything. Just understand that they will go down. Think of all of the variables:

- Air temperature
- Amount of clothing you wear in Feb/March vs July/AUG
- Equipment (race/training wheels)
- Body weight (some people lean out as the summer race season progresses)
- Gearing (many people can't ride big gears early in the season and progress to them over the months)
- Not to mention hammering out the kinks in your form as the season progresses.

So, if you time yourself, just use that as a baseline and go from there.

Kayce 01-09-14 02:03 PM

There any good photo galleries form recent 6 days? I specifically want to look over the bikes the bike set ups.

8bits 01-09-14 02:43 PM

https://www.facebook.com/cannellacycling always have a good selection

Hida Yanra 01-09-14 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kayce (Post 16396879)
There any good photo galleries form recent 6 days? I specifically want to look over the bikes the bike set ups.

Not any especially "good" ones, cyclingnews has 8-12 photos per day find them here.
A few photos (not many) of the setups in Ghent for comparison are here via Pez.

Interesting - almost no one using Sphinx bars in Ghent, at a minimum,Stroetinga, De Buyst, Iljo, Kalz, were all doing madisons on standard drop bars - all on 3T fancy-fancy bars for Rotterdaam. (Maybe Hester as well, he didn't do much in the way of Madisons in Ghent)

**edit** Thought so, but find the photos till just now - Alex Rasmussen also went back and forth on Sphinx/no-Sphinx bars over the various madisons.

I'm assuming this has something to do with the additional banking-force at Ghent causing flex in the bars? I've heard that the Sphinx bars are susceptible to that, but it doesn't seem to stop them being used the rest of the 6day season.

queerpunk 01-09-14 03:57 PM

https://www.facebook.com/sixdayracing has some more photos.

sbs z31 01-09-14 06:14 PM

Has anyone on here use the Surly Fixxer hub conversion kit on a HED3 TriSpoke rear wheel or any carbon rear wheel?

Impreza_aL 01-10-14 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaytron (Post 16394036)
About how much slower is one expected to run during offseason in a flying 200?

you should be faster than your last 200m. you've been training a lot more than last year. so i would suspect a PR. i only say this because you're coming from an untrained state. you're barely scratching the surface of your potential.

if this was someone else than i would suspect a slower time. a person who's been training/racing for 5+ years.

Impreza_aL 01-10-14 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16393968)
These are all minor things. But, if you are looking for 1% gains, here they are :D

i'm going to use the 35cm for mass start events. :roflmao2:

if i can't get use to them i'll throw on the 36cm road bars. that i have on my road bike.

Soil_Sampler 01-10-14 06:46 PM

Team Perko
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16393928)
I have a suspiscion that Perkins (man1) moves his hands up after the start. But, I can't find a pic of him finishing the lap.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...43_964x643.jpg

Email from Shane:

Thanks for your email.

For Team Sprint and all races I keep the same hand position from start to finish.

Thanks for the question, Train Hard, Train Smart

Cheers Shane

carleton 01-10-14 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler (Post 16400469)
Email from Shane:

Thanks for your email.

For Team Sprint and all races I keep the same hand position from start to finish.

Thanks for the question, Train Hard, Train Smart

Cheers Shane

Wow! That's awesome. Thanks!


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