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-   -   Ask your small, random, track-related questions here (http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/924726-ask-your-small-random-track-related-questions-here.html)

Baby Puke 01-10-14 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler (Post 16400469)
Email from Shane:

Thanks for your email.

For Team Sprint and all races I keep the same hand position from start to finish.

Thanks for the question, Train Hard, Train Smart

Cheers Shane

Wow, that is cool. Interesting too, that he keeps his hands pretty far back.

slindell 01-16-14 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 16390754)
Yeah. 110 on one, 105 on another, both just pumped. The rollers spin smoothly but not for long. Other point of information: they were in a cold, cold basement and I wonder if part of the issue was just very cold grease in the bearings slowing everything down.

It was weird, how they felt. Really.

The rolling resistance of tires goes up when the temperature goes down by a pretty significant amount. But tires or bearings should warm up after 5-10 minutes.

Velocirapture 01-17-14 09:14 AM

New question: Motorpacing.

It works, but how/ why?

Kayce 01-17-14 09:38 AM

Motor pacing as training works because it teaches you to spin really high cadences, without having to fatigue you as much, because you dont have the wind resistance. It also builds your muscle endurance, without having to burn their power as much.

Velocirapture 01-18-14 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kayce (Post 16418552)
Motor pacing as training works because it teaches you to spin really high cadences, without having to fatigue you as much, because you dont have the wind resistance. It also builds your muscle endurance, without having to burn their power as much.

So theoretically picking a gear that one uses the same effort to spin at the same speed as a bigger gear behind the bike, should have the same training effect?

carleton 01-18-14 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velocirapture (Post 16420892)
So theoretically picking a gear that one uses the same effort to spin at the same speed as a bigger gear behind the bike, should have the same training effect?

Yes. You can effectively motor pace using a trainer. You need the right mix of torque and cadence to match the event.

wens 01-18-14 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velocirapture (Post 16420892)
So theoretically picking a gear that one uses the same effort to spin at the same speed as a bigger gear behind the bike, should have the same training effect?

I might argue some of the training is skill at managing the gap in the draft, and you won't get that from, say, a trainer, but I also think that's a bigger deal on the road than on the track.

Baby Puke 01-18-14 05:54 PM

I disagree that you can get the same effect as motorpacing from either smaller gear or trainer work. I think the higher-than-race speeds have something to do with it, but I'm not claiming to know exactly what's different. But it is. Motorpacing can give you something special.

queerpunk 01-21-14 03:44 PM

Here's a question for the noobs -

When you ask a question in one of these threads, and us more experienced types talk about it, and banter, and get digressed... do we wind up being completely unhelpful because of where our discussion goes?

I'm thinking of this thread and me and carlton getting sidetracked into "sprinter or enduro?" which is far from the worst example of what i'm talking about... but i'm curious if the noobs feel like their questions get answered, or if we just start talking about stuff that is over their heads and completely useless to them.

sbs z31 01-21-14 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 16429604)
Here's a question for the noobs -

When you ask a question in one of these threads, and us more experienced types talk about it, and banter, and get digressed... do we wind up being completely unhelpful because of where our discussion goes?

I'm thinking of this thread and me and carlton getting sidetracked into "sprinter or enduro?" which is far from the worst example of what i'm talking about... but i'm curious if the noobs feel like their questions get answered, or if we just start talking about stuff that is over their heads and completely useless to them.

So far, yes and appreciate every advices and recommendations.

wens 01-22-14 02:39 PM

How much would I be giving up using butyl tubed tubulars? I have a pretty significant team deal on Continental, so the cost benefit might work out to be worth it for track use.

carleton 01-22-14 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wens (Post 16432293)
How much would I be giving up using butyl tubed tubulars? I have a pretty significant team deal on Continental, so the cost benefit might work out to be worth it for track use.

Is that the same as nylon? I used some nylon tubed tubulars made by Vittoria. They were lighter, but the air escaped very quickly. I'd have to re-pump the tires up in the middle of a training session.

bmontgomery87 01-22-14 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 16429604)
Here's a question for the noobs -

When you ask a question in one of these threads, and us more experienced types talk about it, and banter, and get digressed... do we wind up being completely unhelpful because of where our discussion goes?

I'm thinking of this thread and me and carlton getting sidetracked into "sprinter or enduro?" which is far from the worst example of what i'm talking about... but i'm curious if the noobs feel like their questions get answered, or if we just start talking about stuff that is over their heads and completely useless to them.

Even if two experienced people disagree over something and no clear winner of the internet is crowned, I usually feel like I walk away with a better understanding of the subject.
I still might not be certain on which advice I'm going to take, but I will have most likely gotten an explanation from each person as to why they are right and the other person is wrong.

queerpunk 01-22-14 03:19 PM

haha. cough, crossfit conversation cough cough.

bmontgomery87 01-22-14 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 16432421)
haha. cough, crossfit conversation cough cough.

now that's one conversation no one will ever benefit from.
you have your diehard fans, and people who hate it with a passion. Very few find middle ground, and I haven't seen a lot of friendly discussions on the subject :p

wens 01-22-14 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 (Post 16432425)
now that's one conversation no one will ever benefit from.
you have your diehard fans, and people who hate it with a passion. Very few find middle ground, and I haven't seen a lot of friendly discussions on the subject :p

And then the issue gets more convoluted with guys who do modified crossfit that's not, by the strictest defenition, crossfit chiming in with how they've gotten good results...

wens 01-22-14 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16432305)
Is that the same as nylon? I used some nylon tubed tubulars made by Vittoria. They were lighter, but the air escaped very quickly. I'd have to re-pump the tires up in the middle of a training session.

I'm pretty sure you mean latex, i don't know of anyone putting a nylon tube in a tubular. Not the same thing, butyl is what "normal" tubes are made out of. Latex is the more expensive lightweight stuff.

I'm not worried about the weight difference on the track, but at road pressures on a rough (relative to many velodromes at least) surface you can be giving up significant wattage to latex tubes using butyl tubes. I'd imagine that difference is a lot smaller on a track, because it's smoother (well, at least some), and because you pump the pressure up so high the tire isn't deforming nearly as much. I'd like to have some ballpark on where it falls between 0w and the 12w or so that's probably a reasonable approximation of the difference on chip seal roads.

carleton 01-22-14 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wens (Post 16432666)
I'm pretty sure you mean latex, i don't know of anyone putting a nylon tube in a tubular. Not the same thing, butyl is what "normal" tubes are made out of. Latex is the more expensive lightweight stuff.

I'm not worried about the weight difference on the track, but at road pressures on a rough (relative to many velodromes at least) surface you can be giving up significant wattage to latex tubes using butyl tubes. I'd imagine that difference is a lot smaller on a track, because it's smoother (well, at least some), and because you pump the pressure up so high the tire isn't deforming nearly as much. I'd like to have some ballpark on where it falls between 0w and the 12w or so that's probably a reasonable approximation of the difference on chip seal roads.

Yes, latex, sorry!

bmontgomery87 01-22-14 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wens (Post 16432651)
And then the issue gets more convoluted with guys who do modified crossfit that's not, by the strictest defenition, crossfit chiming in with how they've gotten good results...

That and the guys who hate crossfit because they know a guy who knows a guy who says its bad.

I personally don't like it from the experiences I've had at local boxes and the injuries I've heard of, but it has gotten some people into fitness who may have never gotten off the couch.
It has its good and bad.

wens 01-22-14 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 (Post 16432949)
That and the guys who hate crossfit because they know a guy who knows a guy who says its bad.

I personally don't like it from the experiences I've had at local boxes and the injuries I've heard of, but it has gotten some people into fitness who may have never gotten off the couch.
It has its good and bad.

My only real complaint with crossfit is that a lot of the practitioners don't recognize that any other training system/methodology/program etc. might be more effective, especially for people with goals that aren't crossfit better. Other than that, I think it's like just about everything else, you have some trainers/coaches/whatever who are geniuses, some who shouldn't be allowed to supervise paint drying, and a lot of people who are ok.

slindell 01-22-14 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wens (Post 16432666)
I'm pretty sure you mean latex, i don't know of anyone putting a nylon tube in a tubular. Not the same thing, butyl is what "normal" tubes are made out of. Latex is the more expensive lightweight stuff.

I'm not worried about the weight difference on the track, but at road pressures on a rough (relative to many velodromes at least) surface you can be giving up significant wattage to latex tubes using butyl tubes. I'd imagine that difference is a lot smaller on a track, because it's smoother (well, at least some), and because you pump the pressure up so high the tire isn't deforming nearly as much. I'd like to have some ballpark on where it falls between 0w and the 12w or so that's probably a reasonable approximation of the difference on chip seal roads.

Roller tests on BikeTechReview say about 5-6 watts extra for Butyl at 120psi. Might be more like 3-4 with more pressure and thinner tubes.

Hida Yanra 01-23-14 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wens (Post 16432293)
... butyl tubed tubulars...Continental

Sonderklasse tyres are one of the two standbys for elite level racing.
(non-unicorn edition track tubulars, there's always silk FMB/Dugast and the one-offs)

I've had good results running Tempo IIs (black chili edition), they are sticky enough that I've had no problems with them on a dusty, 200m wood track.

Speed wise? who knows, Contis seem to give up a touch to Vittorias in general- but to quote a pro, "My #1 criteria for parts selection is how free it is."

Given how many fast folks use them on the track, I bet the difference isn't worth the delta in price between non-team-deal tyres and the Contis.

VanceMac 01-23-14 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hida Yanra (Post 16435252)
on a dusty, 200m wood track.

Get outta my nightmares!

Hida Yanra 01-23-14 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanceMac (Post 16435284)
Get outta my nightmares!

that's odd, I like to call them "Fridays"

carleton 01-23-14 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hida Yanra (Post 16435252)
...to quote a pro, "My #1 criteria for parts selection is how free it is."...

Tell me about it.

Two of the fastest guys I know (CAT 1 on the road, Masters Track World Champion, etc...) race track on Conti Sprinters.


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