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  1. #326
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler View Post
    Email from Shane:

    Thanks for your email.

    For Team Sprint and all races I keep the same hand position from start to finish.

    Thanks for the question, Train Hard, Train Smart

    Cheers Shane
    Wow, that is cool. Interesting too, that he keeps his hands pretty far back.

  2. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    Yeah. 110 on one, 105 on another, both just pumped. The rollers spin smoothly but not for long. Other point of information: they were in a cold, cold basement and I wonder if part of the issue was just very cold grease in the bearings slowing everything down.

    It was weird, how they felt. Really.
    The rolling resistance of tires goes up when the temperature goes down by a pretty significant amount. But tires or bearings should warm up after 5-10 minutes.

  3. #328
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    New question: Motorpacing.

    It works, but how/ why?

  4. #329
    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
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    Motor pacing as training works because it teaches you to spin really high cadences, without having to fatigue you as much, because you dont have the wind resistance. It also builds your muscle endurance, without having to burn their power as much.
    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

  5. #330
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayce View Post
    Motor pacing as training works because it teaches you to spin really high cadences, without having to fatigue you as much, because you dont have the wind resistance. It also builds your muscle endurance, without having to burn their power as much.
    So theoretically picking a gear that one uses the same effort to spin at the same speed as a bigger gear behind the bike, should have the same training effect?

  6. #331
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    So theoretically picking a gear that one uses the same effort to spin at the same speed as a bigger gear behind the bike, should have the same training effect?
    Yes. You can effectively motor pace using a trainer. You need the right mix of torque and cadence to match the event.

  7. #332
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    So theoretically picking a gear that one uses the same effort to spin at the same speed as a bigger gear behind the bike, should have the same training effect?
    I might argue some of the training is skill at managing the gap in the draft, and you won't get that from, say, a trainer, but I also think that's a bigger deal on the road than on the track.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  8. #333
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    I disagree that you can get the same effect as motorpacing from either smaller gear or trainer work. I think the higher-than-race speeds have something to do with it, but I'm not claiming to know exactly what's different. But it is. Motorpacing can give you something special.

  9. #334
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Here's a question for the noobs -

    When you ask a question in one of these threads, and us more experienced types talk about it, and banter, and get digressed... do we wind up being completely unhelpful because of where our discussion goes?

    I'm thinking of this thread and me and carlton getting sidetracked into "sprinter or enduro?" which is far from the worst example of what i'm talking about... but i'm curious if the noobs feel like their questions get answered, or if we just start talking about stuff that is over their heads and completely useless to them.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  10. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    Here's a question for the noobs -

    When you ask a question in one of these threads, and us more experienced types talk about it, and banter, and get digressed... do we wind up being completely unhelpful because of where our discussion goes?

    I'm thinking of this thread and me and carlton getting sidetracked into "sprinter or enduro?" which is far from the worst example of what i'm talking about... but i'm curious if the noobs feel like their questions get answered, or if we just start talking about stuff that is over their heads and completely useless to them.
    So far, yes and appreciate every advices and recommendations.

  11. #336
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    How much would I be giving up using butyl tubed tubulars? I have a pretty significant team deal on Continental, so the cost benefit might work out to be worth it for track use.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  12. #337
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wens View Post
    How much would I be giving up using butyl tubed tubulars? I have a pretty significant team deal on Continental, so the cost benefit might work out to be worth it for track use.
    Is that the same as nylon? I used some nylon tubed tubulars made by Vittoria. They were lighter, but the air escaped very quickly. I'd have to re-pump the tires up in the middle of a training session.

  13. #338
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    Here's a question for the noobs -

    When you ask a question in one of these threads, and us more experienced types talk about it, and banter, and get digressed... do we wind up being completely unhelpful because of where our discussion goes?

    I'm thinking of this thread and me and carlton getting sidetracked into "sprinter or enduro?" which is far from the worst example of what i'm talking about... but i'm curious if the noobs feel like their questions get answered, or if we just start talking about stuff that is over their heads and completely useless to them.
    Even if two experienced people disagree over something and no clear winner of the internet is crowned, I usually feel like I walk away with a better understanding of the subject.
    I still might not be certain on which advice I'm going to take, but I will have most likely gotten an explanation from each person as to why they are right and the other person is wrong.

  14. #339
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    haha. cough, crossfit conversation cough cough.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  15. #340
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    haha. cough, crossfit conversation cough cough.
    now that's one conversation no one will ever benefit from.
    you have your diehard fans, and people who hate it with a passion. Very few find middle ground, and I haven't seen a lot of friendly discussions on the subject

  16. #341
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    now that's one conversation no one will ever benefit from.
    you have your diehard fans, and people who hate it with a passion. Very few find middle ground, and I haven't seen a lot of friendly discussions on the subject
    And then the issue gets more convoluted with guys who do modified crossfit that's not, by the strictest defenition, crossfit chiming in with how they've gotten good results...
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  17. #342
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Is that the same as nylon? I used some nylon tubed tubulars made by Vittoria. They were lighter, but the air escaped very quickly. I'd have to re-pump the tires up in the middle of a training session.
    I'm pretty sure you mean latex, i don't know of anyone putting a nylon tube in a tubular. Not the same thing, butyl is what "normal" tubes are made out of. Latex is the more expensive lightweight stuff.

    I'm not worried about the weight difference on the track, but at road pressures on a rough (relative to many velodromes at least) surface you can be giving up significant wattage to latex tubes using butyl tubes. I'd imagine that difference is a lot smaller on a track, because it's smoother (well, at least some), and because you pump the pressure up so high the tire isn't deforming nearly as much. I'd like to have some ballpark on where it falls between 0w and the 12w or so that's probably a reasonable approximation of the difference on chip seal roads.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  18. #343
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wens View Post
    I'm pretty sure you mean latex, i don't know of anyone putting a nylon tube in a tubular. Not the same thing, butyl is what "normal" tubes are made out of. Latex is the more expensive lightweight stuff.

    I'm not worried about the weight difference on the track, but at road pressures on a rough (relative to many velodromes at least) surface you can be giving up significant wattage to latex tubes using butyl tubes. I'd imagine that difference is a lot smaller on a track, because it's smoother (well, at least some), and because you pump the pressure up so high the tire isn't deforming nearly as much. I'd like to have some ballpark on where it falls between 0w and the 12w or so that's probably a reasonable approximation of the difference on chip seal roads.
    Yes, latex, sorry!

  19. #344
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wens View Post
    And then the issue gets more convoluted with guys who do modified crossfit that's not, by the strictest defenition, crossfit chiming in with how they've gotten good results...
    That and the guys who hate crossfit because they know a guy who knows a guy who says its bad.

    I personally don't like it from the experiences I've had at local boxes and the injuries I've heard of, but it has gotten some people into fitness who may have never gotten off the couch.
    It has its good and bad.

  20. #345
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    That and the guys who hate crossfit because they know a guy who knows a guy who says its bad.

    I personally don't like it from the experiences I've had at local boxes and the injuries I've heard of, but it has gotten some people into fitness who may have never gotten off the couch.
    It has its good and bad.
    My only real complaint with crossfit is that a lot of the practitioners don't recognize that any other training system/methodology/program etc. might be more effective, especially for people with goals that aren't crossfit better. Other than that, I think it's like just about everything else, you have some trainers/coaches/whatever who are geniuses, some who shouldn't be allowed to supervise paint drying, and a lot of people who are ok.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  21. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by wens View Post
    I'm pretty sure you mean latex, i don't know of anyone putting a nylon tube in a tubular. Not the same thing, butyl is what "normal" tubes are made out of. Latex is the more expensive lightweight stuff.

    I'm not worried about the weight difference on the track, but at road pressures on a rough (relative to many velodromes at least) surface you can be giving up significant wattage to latex tubes using butyl tubes. I'd imagine that difference is a lot smaller on a track, because it's smoother (well, at least some), and because you pump the pressure up so high the tire isn't deforming nearly as much. I'd like to have some ballpark on where it falls between 0w and the 12w or so that's probably a reasonable approximation of the difference on chip seal roads.
    Roller tests on BikeTechReview say about 5-6 watts extra for Butyl at 120psi. Might be more like 3-4 with more pressure and thinner tubes.

  22. #347
    VeloSIRraptor
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    Quote Originally Posted by wens View Post
    ... butyl tubed tubulars...Continental
    Sonderklasse tyres are one of the two standbys for elite level racing.
    (non-unicorn edition track tubulars, there's always silk FMB/Dugast and the one-offs)

    I've had good results running Tempo IIs (black chili edition), they are sticky enough that I've had no problems with them on a dusty, 200m wood track.

    Speed wise? who knows, Contis seem to give up a touch to Vittorias in general- but to quote a pro, "My #1 criteria for parts selection is how free it is."

    Given how many fast folks use them on the track, I bet the difference isn't worth the delta in price between non-team-deal tyres and the Contis.
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  23. #348
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    on a dusty, 200m wood track.
    Get outta my nightmares!

  24. #349
    VeloSIRraptor
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Get outta my nightmares!
    that's odd, I like to call them "Fridays"
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  25. #350
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    ...to quote a pro, "My #1 criteria for parts selection is how free it is."...
    Tell me about it.

    Two of the fastest guys I know (CAT 1 on the road, Masters Track World Champion, etc...) race track on Conti Sprinters.

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