8bits

Does anyone know if the lift of UCI restriction on 3:1 frame design applies to track frames? If so, we should expect new designs coming out in the next couple of years right?

rustymongrel

I wouldn't expect to see many new designs. Minimum and maximum tube dimensions and the various boxes that the tube shapes need to fit into haven't changed. The 3:1 rule change is just a token gesture by the UCI.

carleton

I wonder why hasn't SRAM updated their Omnium cranket. They seem to evolve their other products (including cranks and chainrings) pretty regularly.

They were novel with going with external BB and a low price point. There are a few things they could do to greatly improve the cranks and make them the "go to" cranks for competitive track racers:

- Lower the Q-factor to match Dura Ace.
- Shave the crank spider so that one can use single chainring bolts.
- Use serated chainring nuts to lodge into the crank spider.
- Shave some weight from the crank arms.
- Make them compatable with nicer external bottom bracket options.
- Offer a complete line of budget friendly 144BCD 1/8" chainrings (SRAM makes a lot of chainrings already, this shouldn't be a manufacturing challenge).

I love Shimano's 7710 crankset, but it's expensive. I think SRAM did a great thing by offering a solid competitive crankset at a great price. Maybe they can improve upon it for version 2.

The Bee's Knees would be for them to create a system like LOOK did where one can have one of 3 effective crank lengths in one by rotating the small piece where the pedals connect.

It looks like this:



This piece on the end pops out and your rotate it to go from:
- Size 1: 165mm / 167.5mm / 170 mm, or
- Size 2: 172.5mm / 175mm / 177.5 mm



Basically, you get 3 crank lengths in one.

I would buy that.

It doesn't even have to be one metal piece that rotates, it could be 3 separate metal pieces, one for each length. That way they will all be centered.

taras0000

Centering wouldn't matter. As long as both inserts are 180 degrees to each other, the positioning doesn't matter. Or you could play with your timing, like engine ignition. Take your Octalink cranks and put them 45 degrees out of phase. Torquey!

topflightpro

SRM copied that design for its new Origin crankset.

queerpunk

That's so fkn cool.

carleton

Really?!

Is it available for Track as well?

YES.

carleton

Well I'll be....




SRM PowerMeter SRM Origin Road

Here's where it gets interesting:

So, it seems as though they have licensed the patent (?) from LOOK and it will be available in Aluminum ("available in 2018")!

It looks like the Track compatibility comes from swapping out to a different spindle length:

Downsides:

- Only 170mm, 172.5mm or 175mm listed on the configuration page.
- No mention of 144BCD.

My guess is that, unless they make a 144BCD crank spider, it will simply be an asymmetrical 4-bolt BCD road crank using this spider with a 42mm chainline to line up with the cog.



The foundation is there. They just have to add more to the product line to support track:

- Make a 144BCD Spider
- Make 165mm/167.5mm/170mm crank

Long story short: The track version isn't ready yet. The road version would technically fit on a track frame

topflightpro

This pretty much sums it up. A buddy is an SRM dealer so he called me to let me know about it - with the spindles and crank arm length changes, it makes it pretty adaptable.

But it still isn't short enough, nor is it 144bcd. I mean, there are some 1/8 rings in a 130, but they are less common.

carleton

What's more is that the actual Track version is cheaper...even if you buy 3 sets of arms

You can buy other arm lengths and swap them out using a star nut wrench (I've done it).

- Power meter cranks (with 165mm arms): $1700
- Add 167.5mm optional arms: $200
- Add 170.0mm optional arms: $200

Total: $2,100

Origin Cranks: $2,169

carleton

To be honest, if SRM offered a "dead" spider (with no power meter guts) and offered the same swappable crank arm system, I bet it would sell.

The cranks are as stiff as Dura Ace, uses the same Octalink BB, and paying only $200 for a different crank length is totally worth it.

But, alas...SRM wouldn't do such a thing.

topflightpro

Maybe you could find someone to machine one for you?

carleton

Hahahahahaha! That makes too much sense!

But, seriously. It would take me a lot of time/money to have custom prototypes made and test them and it might not be cost effective for a 1-off solution. But, it's certainly possible. That same thinking is what made the 130 to 144 BCD adapters available so people could use road power meter cranks on their track bikes.

If I had access to a CNC machine and knew how to use it, it would be worthwhile, but paying someone to do it would cost more than it's worth.

I'm pretty sure that SRM could make one faster than I can type this post. Basically:
- Don't put power meter guts in the crank spider.
- Charge $100 for the spider and $200 for each set of crank arms.
- Done.
- Market is now cornered.

octopus magic

Here's a small question, does anyone know if there's a way to jam some better track ends on the old 2003 era Fuji Track Pro? I like the frame a lot, but having to use tiny Miche track nuts all the time really stinks, almost to the point where I want to find another frame.

1incpa

I have an old Fuji frame, but I'm not sure of the problem you're having with yours. Can you describe exactly what the problem is, or maybe a picture or 2 would help?
Paul

Bluscuba

First post! I've been an avid reader recently. Thanks for the goldmine of information.

I had a silly question about lifting a rear wheel and spinning it with your hand. When I've tried it on my track bike ( a hoy fiorenzuola 002 ) it manages only a few turns before stopping. It's got a dura ace crank, BB and dura ace hubs so that parts can't be an issue. Tension on the chain isn't too high and gearing is 51 x 15 which is big but I can't imagine its due to that.

Comparing it with other track bikes - they just seem to spin and spin.

I'm not blaming my poor performances on this, much as I'd love to, but I'm curious to know if it's an issue and if so where would I look to solve it. The bike is stored in containers and is 6 months old.

Thanks!

carleton

There is friction somewhere. It could be a number of things, but my guess is that the bearings on your Dura Ace hubs have seized up. This happens. I used to carry a set of cone wrenches in my track sack to deal with this.

This happens on hubs that have been used longer. Basically the "grip nuts" aren't gripping against the frame and when you tighten the rear wheel with the 15mm axle nut, it's tightening the cone that pressing the bearings...thus adding friction. Grip nuts are on the axle that grip the frame from the inside providing opposing force to the 15mm outside nut on the dropout. Over time, the serrations are mashed down and they don't grip anymore.

To test this:
- Remove the chain from the cog, tighten the wheel as you normally do, and see if the wheel spins freely or not. And/Or...
- Remove the wheel from the bike and see if the axle spins freely in your fingers.

If neither one of those tests shows the wheel/axle spinning freely, then you need:

- New Grip Nuts (can be obtained from a good local bike shop)
- A set of Cone Wrenches for your track sack to deal with this on the spot when it occurs in the future. Your bike shop will tell you what size you need.


This is normal and common for non-sealed bearing ("old school") hubs.

carleton

This is what you need: https://www.retro-gression.com/produ...track-axle-set



The grip nuts are the black nuts right next to the silver 15mm nuts. They apply opposing pressure on the dropout. The cone nut is the silver one furthest on the inside. The bearings roll around it. There is a sweet spot of pressure that is applied to have the wheel not loose and jangling around and not too tight and bearings seized up.

If you can get the grip nuts separately, then that would probably be cheaper.

You can do this all yourself if you are handy with tools and pay attention. It's not hard.

Bluscuba

Thanks Carleton

The Hubs aren't old though, maybe I've overtightened them.

Would you recommend sealed bearings then - the bike is stored in a steel container at the track but it's outside. I was considering mavic ellipse, maybe saving the dura ace for racing.

carleton

I guess, first, let's verify that the problem is with the hub. It could be your bottom bracket (less likely though), or off-center chainrings (more likely than bottom bracket but less likely than rear hub).

The problem that I describe in the posts above usually come up with loos-ball/caged-ball hubs that have seen a lot of use and require replacement parts (as part of regular maintenance). If your hub is relatively fresh, then maybe 1 good adjustment is all you need to keep you rolling smoothly for a couple of seasons (seriously).

Yes, sealed bearing wheels certainly avoid this problem. I'd imagine that's why they were created, as an evolution of the components. That being said, it's my understanding that some high-end road and track wheels still come with the "old school" system.

It's gonna cost you time and/or money to change wheelsets. Whether the cost involved is worth the expense is a personal thing. I think that once you see how little work is involved, you may not think it's worth it. On the other hand, if it's chronic and you train/race a lot, you may.

I hate to write this as it may sway your decision, but it's relevant. I switched from Dura Ace hubs to Mavic Ellipse and other sealed bearing hubs for this reason. But, I was on the track A LOT at the time 4 or more days/week. Plus I was putting lots of torque out on the wheel with standing start training, so I would torque down on the nuts A LOT. I consider that volume and intensity of use on the far end of the bell curve away from normal use. It was worth it for me, but if you are closer to the normal range of use, it may not be worth it for you. That being said, the buddy I traded the wheelset to still uses them today...with no issues. I saw the wheelset in person again at Masters Track Nationals a few weeks ago. He uses them regularly.

Bluscuba

Thanks for the advice.

Hope it's just the grip nuts.

I love the relatively pro / aggressive position now ( at first I found it too hard ) so if I can get this right I'll be very happy.

It's 2 - 3 times per week and no standing starts up until this week anyway.

Will look at the wheels tomorrow and let you know !

Bluscuba

Just an update - I've had the bearings and bottom bracket looked at and adjusted / re greased by a mechanic, they seem to be running much better now. Thanks for your help.

I actually somehow ended up with 2 track bikes and have been using the second one. That has a 50 x 15 rather than a 51 x 15.

I found it hard to keep up the cadence on the lower gearing - it was a slightly faster bunch ( a mix of categories due to inclement weather) but I need to work on upping my pedal speed.

I tend to ride my bike for work quite a lot - riding between jobs, so I'm lucky in that respect and have time to work on stuff outside of track training. Any tips for improving it? E.g is it more beneficial to do, say 30 seconds at maximum cadence or a longer period at a higher than comfortable cadence and gradually build up.

I've got access to rollers and a watt bike ( at the gym)

It's scratch races / points races

carleton

Expanding your range of effective cadences, meaning how fast you can pedal for an extended period of time, is a function of:

- Crank Length.
- Saddle Position.
- Gear Combination.
- Genetics.
- Training.

It's a journey of trial and error. There are a few things people can tell you to get you in close to the magic combination. But, it will come down to you and your allen wrench as well as a set of rollers.

Allen wrench will help you experiment with saddle positions (up/down, fore/aft). Rollers will show you how you are doing. If you can't ride 120, 130, 140, 150, rpm unloaded (no air resistance), you definitely won't be able to do it loaded (on a track with air resistance).

bitingduck

If you live in a place with winter, you can use the rollers and broadcast TV to develop your cadence over the winter. When I lived in Minneapolis we'd do "star trek intervals" during the winter. You get on the rollers and watch Star Trek (or any other show where some suspense has to build for an hour). It has to be broadcast because you need the commercial breaks. You ride tempo during the program so you can hear, and when there's a commercial break you wind it up to the max speed that you can sustain until the program comes back on. The commercial breaks get longer and more frequent towards the end, so you'll get a few solid 2 minute efforts in the last 8-10 minutes.

If you're riding your track bike around on the road, I'd go for a much smaller gear than you're using now - something in the neighborhood of 70". You can still get pretty good speeds on that, but you have to spin to do it. As Carleton says, you may have to do some position adjustments to get there.

In years of doing the motor game regularly at the LA Velodrome and watching new riders, almost everybody comes in with limited cadence-- they get bouncy when the speed gets high. Eventually they all smooth it out.

Bluscuba

Thanks for the tips!

I used to ride fixed gear on the road albeit with a higher gear than 70. I'll definitely give that a try.

I'm in the UK - I hadn't noticed the commercial breaks getting more frequent and longer here but maybe they do now.