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  1. #526
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zizou View Post
    Tactical tip for first time sprinter

    Basically i am an enduro with a decent sprint. But that is relatively speaking - I'm certainly no match for a proper sprinter.

    Anyway i will be doing a sprint ladder this week which will consist of match sprints (likely with 3 on the track rather than 2) and im going to be up against sprinters at some point. I would estimate these guys will be between 2-3 seconds faster than me on a flying 200. Are there any tactics that can level things up a little? Is it a case of going for a long one and hoping to hold on or is there anything more subtle than that? Or are enduros simply an irrelevence in a 3 lap race?
    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Apologies, but unless you are missing a decimal point, there are no tactics that will help in that scenario. That is an ENORMOUS delta. If I were up against someone even just 1 full second faster, I would go IMMEDIATELY from the ***... and at least make him hurt.
    +1

    Also, treat a 3 or 4-up as the last 3 laps of a Scratch race. Same rules for positioning and sprinting apply. Also, if you don't think you can beat them in a drag race...never let it become a drag race. Take them long.

  2. #527
    VeloSIRraptor
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    ....if you don't think you can beat them in a drag race...never let it become a drag race.
    Huh, that's almost sig worthy.
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  3. #528
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    +1

    Also, treat a 3 or 4-up as the last 3 laps of a Scratch race. Same rules for positioning and sprinting apply. Also, if you don't think you can beat them in a drag race...never let it become a drag race. Take them long.
    2+

    Don't necessarily go kilo from the ***, but stretch things out early and watch for the two others (who probably know you are not a pure sprinter) to be looking at each other. Don't make a big fuss about accelerating quickly. Accelerate from seated. Don't make a huge dramatic drop into the sprinters lane. Don't do the whole roadie-thrashing-bike thing. Think stealthy speed. Really try to fuzztz up their timing by continuously accelerating and encourage them to be looking at each other rather than you. Just remember, if there are two sprinters and you on the track, the biggest worry those sprinters have is each other. You can use that to your advantage. Just like in a road race, there will be some hesitation to chase you, since the guy doing the chasing is giving a very nice leadout to the other.

    But, like others have said, a full second difference is a huge gap. It's going to be hard to overcome that disadvantage in such a short race. You need to encourage them to give you as much leash as possible, because a sprinter can close a huge gap in a hurry.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  4. #529
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    +1

    Also, treat a 3 or 4-up as the last 3 laps of a Scratch race. Same rules for positioning and sprinting apply. Also, if you don't think you can beat them in a drag race...never let it become a drag race. Take them long.
    Uhhhh...
    If you are 3 seconds slower than me in the 200m- you can't beat me in a drag race, or a kilo... Long, short, it's not happening

  5. #530
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    My apologies in advance but I do not get how a racer who is 3 seconds slower in a flying 200 gets matched against overwhelming competition. The sprint tournaments that I have done start with a flying 200 and IF there are 16 in the field, it is broken down into an A and B group by time. If there are slower riders, there may be a C group. The As can be 2 to 3 seconds faster than the Cs but they will never compete.

    First, IMO, it is a little dangerous to put a really slow guy on the track with two really fast guys with the goal of the slow guy to be disruptive and not having a chance to even be competitive. I will admit that if the slow guy goes from the *** and picks up the pace, the remaining racers have fewer options. The cat and mouse nature of stalking is gone such that they have to decide immediately to chase. Once they are on the slow guys wheel, the next decision is when to pass him and where. I could see some argy bargy as they make the pass fighting for position and the slow guy always loses unless the fast guys crash each other out.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  6. #531
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    First ride in a sprint tournament is always the fastest qualifier and the Slowest (to make the cut), 2nd fastest gets 2nd slowest... And so on..

  7. #532
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Uhhhh...
    If you are 3 seconds slower than me in the 200m- you can't beat me in a drag race, or a kilo... Long, short, it's not happening
    I didn't say he'd win

    That's just the best tactic he has at his disposal.

  8. #533
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    First ride in a sprint tournament is always the fastest qualifier and the Slowest (to make the cut), 2nd fastest gets 2nd slowest... And so on..
    In our open sprint tournaments, the flying 200 sets the A, B, and C groups and the fastest A competes against the slowest A.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  9. #534
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    I don't think it is dangerous. I mean, at worse, there are only four guys on the track...

    A keirin is different though. Having a slow guy or two in the mix... it can get crowded in a hurry once the motor leaves.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  10. #535
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    In our open sprint tournaments, the flying 200 sets the A, B, and C groups and the fastest A competes against the slowest A.
    Masters Nationals was 18 qualifiers..

  11. #536
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    We all have anecdotal stories. Here are two:

    1st story:

    I watched a 3-up sprint at TTown with Gideon Massie (Olympian), Njisane Phillip (Olympian), and a new unknown racer. Massie and Phillip knew that the race was really between themselves and they didn't pay any mind to the unknown guy. Massie and Phillip both like to play the "cat and mouse" tactics. While they were eyeing each other and doing that, the other guy took off and held on for dear life. Massie and Phillip saw him but didn't care. Eventually they broke their stalemate and raced each other to the finish and assumed that they'd catch the guy in the process. Nope. Unknown guy won.

    2nd story:

    Hoy was put out in the 1st round of a major event (European Championships) that he was favored to win. He was beaten by an "enduro" who was seeded last in the tournament. In the first round, 1 win takes the round and the winner advances. There is no best 2 out of 3.



    As the saying goes, even the sun shines on a dog's arse some days.

  12. #537
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I didn't say he'd win

    That's just the best tactic he has at his disposal.
    Do the math on top speeds.. If rider A does an 11.5" and rider B does a 14", rider B's top speed is like 32mph.. He can do as many laps as he wants at 32mph- rider A is winning..

    So- yes it may be the best of his poor options.. But it likely didn't phase rider A and now rider B burned a match he needs for later rounds..

  13. #538
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Do the math on top speeds.. If rider A does an 11.5" and rider B does a 14", rider B's top speed is like 32mph.. He can do as many laps as he wants at 32mph- rider A is winning..

    So- yes it may be the best of his poor options.. But it likely didn't phase rider A and now rider B burned a match he needs for later rounds..
    I agree.

    But, if he's already in a 3-up and matched up against much faster riders, there likely are no rides after this. This is the repechage. If I were coaching, I'd say, "Give it all you got. Don't lay down for anybody."

  14. #539
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    It is in my sprinter DNA to do my best to convince you you have zero shot before we even leave the warm-up circle..


  15. #540
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    How about chains? When does it make sense to spend big money on a 1/8" chain? I have worked as a mechanic, and I haven't seen any catastrophic failures of 1/8" chains, even of the generic ones. 3/32" chains are a different matter.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
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  16. #541
    Junior Member Cantrackie's Avatar
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    I have known a lot of sprinters in my career, and being one myself I can tell you that we are a lazy bunch(sort of), we want to do the least amount of work possible to get the "win", the last thing we really want to happen is a Kilo.
    So my advice is much like the rest, take the snap out of a sprinters legs by dragging it out, don't make it steady as you 'll give a good lead out, instead give a few good accelerations to take the punch out of their legs, you might win, you might not, but at the very least you'll have a typically large ego maniacal person(as most sprinters are) very angry with you, and that can be rewarding in itself.

  17. #542
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    How about chains? When does it make sense to spend big money on a 1/8" chain? I have worked as a mechanic, and I haven't seen any catastrophic failures of 1/8" chains, even of the generic ones. 3/32" chains are a different matter.
    The point of diminishing returns comes very quickly when it comes to chains. An $80 chain doesn't perform much better (if at all) than a $15 chain. But, a $15 chain does perform better than an $10 chain.

    Stretching is more of a concern than breaking. As you well know, a stretched chain will eat up the more expensive chainrings and cogs.

    Cheap chains stretch faster and more than the others more expensive models.

    A good track chain costs around $15-20 and will last years with proper routine maintenance (cleaning, oiling, etc...)

    I have KMC K710 ($15-20) and Izumi ECO ($20-25) chains that I've been doing fat guy standing starts on for years and they show no signs of stretching via the chain-checker. But, a cheaper chain would have stretched within months.

    There are lots of good chains out there: Izumi, KMC (certain models), D.I.D., Whipperman, etc... Maybe other people can mention chains that have treated them well.

  18. #543
    Senior Member
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    The HKK blue chain is the cheapest NJS chain at ~$25 (¥1500/$15 in Japan), has identical construction to the HKK gold (three times the price) and is the chain of choice among pro-keirin riders, many of whom are fat (and strong).

  19. #544
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Masters Nationals was 18 qualifiers..
    Here are the flying 200 times for Nationals last year at Indy 40-44 with 22 competitors but the time spread was 11.4 to 12.9 or 1.5 seconds not 3 seconds and they run as two up head to head. https://www.usacycling.org/results/i...&info_id=67465 The 11.4 guy goes against the 12.9 which should be an easy win for the fast guy no matter what the slower racer does. But you will not see the two fastest guys on the track against the slowest guy in a 3 up.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  20. #545
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantrackie View Post
    I have known a lot of sprinters in my career, and being one myself I can tell you that we are a lazy bunch(sort of), we want to do the least amount of work possible to get the "win", the last thing we really want to happen is a Kilo.
    So my advice is much like the rest, take the snap out of a sprinters legs by dragging it out, don't make it steady as you 'll give a good lead out, instead give a few good accelerations to take the punch out of their legs, you might win, you might not, but at the very least you'll have a typically large ego maniacal person(as most sprinters are) very angry with you, and that can be rewarding in itself.
    When coming up through the rounds- I will ride an 88" gear until I get to someone who rode a sub-12" 200.. The reason is- I know top end will not exceed my rpm-capacity and it allows me to be super responsive to the typical early attacks in these rounds.. The key for the big sprinter in this situation is not missing the move.. If a gap doesn't open, then drafting and coming around is not a problem..

  21. #546
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    When coming up through the rounds- I will ride an 88" gear until I get to someone who rode a sub-12" 200.. The reason is- I know top end will not exceed my rpm-capacity and it allows me to be super responsive to the typical early attacks in these rounds.. The key for the big sprinter in this situation is not missing the move.. If a gap doesn't open, then drafting and coming around is not a problem..
    This is a great idea that I'd never considered.

  22. #547
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantrackie View Post
    ...at the very least you'll have a typically large ego maniacal person(as most sprinters are) very angry with you, and that can be rewarding in itself.
    You know, it's just not fair. I went so much faster than the little snot in qualifying and he shoves off and goes hard when he isn't supposed to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    This is a great idea that I'd never considered.
    1+

    Good to know some people still ride small gears.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  23. #548
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    The 11.4 guy goes against the 12.9 which should be an easy win for the fast guy no matter what the slower racer does.
    It was..

  24. #549
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    At some point being out gunned badly you may as well treat it as a learning experience and motor pacing session. If you can hang with the jump you will get some high speed training in and even if dropped you get to see the lead up to the jump and try to do better next time. Sometimes you can even get a second place out of 3.
    Going off the front and getting passed at the end is more of the same practice and you don't get to see the tactics other than a blur going by. If you do a flier make sure to hold your line so if you do get passed you don't endanger anyone.

  25. #550
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    With more than a second in 200m time differential, he won't be able to stay with the acceleration.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

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