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  1. #676
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    Random question thats been niggling me;

    5 spokes are 'it', and no one in their right mind rides a 4 or 3 spoke on the track, it seems.

    Is this purely a wheel stiffness issue, or is there more to it?
    I personally think the aerodynamic differences are probably negligible. I also think 5 spokes look better, which may influence their adoption.

  2. #677
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    Random question thats been niggling me;

    5 spokes are 'it', and no one in their right mind rides a 4 or 3 spoke on the track, it seems.

    Is this purely a wheel stiffness issue, or is there more to it?
    No... Mavic IO/Comete are in. Mavic chose five spokes for whatever reason (probably compromise between stiffness and aero, but probably an element of marketing in there too). Hence... 5 spokes.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  3. #678
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Andrew, the certification instructor, is my locker parter at VSC and good friend. He is very good and you will have a blast with him.
    Andrew is great. He certified me 3 years ago, and my wife last week!

    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    I blame Vance for getting me started...
    I take the blame for a lot... but this one I'll gladly take credit for, because you were born for the track. You're going to dig it, and do very well.

  4. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    Random question thats been niggling me;

    5 spokes are 'it', and no one in their right mind rides a 4 or 3 spoke on the track, it seems.

    Is this purely a wheel stiffness issue, or is there more to it?
    I say it is all marketing. I still prefer a 3 spoke and like the original trispoke. Until someone gives me a 5 spoke and I test it out myself as faster I plan to stick with the trispoke front on the track. Not very many 5 spoke wheels on my track ... but I am guessing if I was in So Cal it would be a different story.

  5. #680
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    Is there a significant aero benefit between a Zipp 808 to the 404? Do the rim depth (+30mm) make the wheel stiffer?

  6. #681
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8bits View Post
    Is there a significant aero benefit between a Zipp 808 to the 404? Do the rim depth (+30mm) make the wheel stiffer?
    Yes, in my opinion, there is a significant difference.

    But, the 808 can be tough to handle in windy conditions for smaller riders and something for larger riders to wrestle with. I would recommend the 404 for smaller riders who race outdoors.

  7. #682
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    if you are talking FC, they are actually very close at low YAW angles.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...xS2doYUE#gid=0

    Assuming the wheels cost the same (no idea), the 808 is the wheel to get, but probably not worth replacing your 404 if you had one. I haven't noticed the 808 to be a pain to ride in wind (I tt on one) but then again Im fat.


    and according to
    TOUR QTR 4-2011

    the 808 is stiffer than a 404. and also more aero.
    Last edited by gtrob; 03-20-14 at 12:23 AM.

  8. #683
    Senior Member Huffandstuff's Avatar
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    So I see a masi Coltello up for sale ( 2013 Masi Coltello NEW Fixed/track frame and fork ) and tried doing some googling but coming up on almost no results for reviews. Anyone have any firsthand/secondhand experience with these?

    I currently ride a Kilo and have no problems with it but it is kind of heavy at almost 20 lbs so it seems like a decent upgrade for 400 bucks.

  9. #684
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    For starters, the problem with your Kilo isn't the weight. Weight doesn't matter on the track. Some of the best bikes in the world, outfitted with the fastest race wheels in the world, are absolute tanks.

    But - that Masi would be a nice upgrade.
    They're in the same category as a bunch of other completely decent aluminum track frames - Felt, Fuji, Bianchi, etc. The cool thing about an aluminum track frame with a carbon fork is that it's cheap, and it's sufficient up to a really high level of racing. That's also what's awesome about track racing.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  10. #685
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the feedback on the fivespoke vs 3 spoke wheels
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  11. #686
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    queerpunk, could you explain a bit further why weight doesn't matter on the track? As you may know, I have my first track bike, and it is heavy, and you might be reassuring me. Plus, it's an interesting topic, even if I weren't planning to start this sport.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
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  12. #687
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    and according to
    TOUR QTR 4-2011
    That article made me all warm and fuzzy.

  13. #688
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    queerpunk, could you explain a bit further why weight doesn't matter on the track? As you may know, I have my first track bike, and it is heavy, and you might be reassuring me. Plus, it's an interesting topic, even if I weren't planning to start this sport.
    I think he's saying that for most beginners, the limiting factors are strength, technique, capacity, etc.
    So being on a 12 pound bike or an 18 pound bike, isn't going to make the difference between being awesome or not.
    More time on the track should be the focus.

    I could be wrong, but that's how I'd interpret it. Same thing with most sports and high end equipment.

  14. #689
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    I think he's saying that for most beginners, the limiting factors are strength, technique, capacity, etc.
    So being on a 12 pound bike or an 18 pound bike, isn't going to make the difference between being awesome or not.
    More time on the track should be the focus.

    I could be wrong, but that's how I'd interpret it. Same thing with most sports and high end equipment.
    I don't think this holds to beginners alone. I picked up my teammate's LOOK KG496 the other day and that complete bike must be near 25 pounds. This was THE elite sprint bike in it's day, which was not that long ago. The BT's are pretty hefty too. Weight is not much of a consideration on the track as there are no hills, and maybe the fact that few trackies are 130 pound climber types contributes to this as well. You want wheels and tires to be light for acceleration, but the bike itself is not as much of an issue.

  15. #690
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    Handlebars

    That's what I figured, and I'm glad you are confirming it. I think mine might be over 20 pounds, which might matter a little, but probably not.

    What about handlebars? I put Nitto steel bars on the bike. Do I really need steel? I understand it is considered important on the track, but I have weak, scrawny shoulders and arms. What should I be concerned about, other than increasing my strength? I've started doing pushups and sit-ups, and I'll add more exercises soon.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
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  16. #691
    Senior Member Huffandstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    For starters, the problem with your Kilo isn't the weight. Weight doesn't matter on the track. Some of the best bikes in the world, outfitted with the fastest race wheels in the world, are absolute tanks.

    But - that Masi would be a nice upgrade.
    They're in the same category as a bunch of other completely decent aluminum track frames - Felt, Fuji, Bianchi, etc. The cool thing about an aluminum track frame with a carbon fork is that it's cheap, and it's sufficient up to a really high level of racing. That's also what's awesome about track racing.
    Yeah, I'm not that worried about weight but it would be nicer to get it sround 17 lbs which is where I think it was before on an aluminum frame/fork.

    I just wasn't sure about the Masi since I've never seen one of their aluminum frames before.

  17. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    That's what I figured, and I'm glad you are confirming it. I think mine might be over 20 pounds, which might matter a little, but probably not.

    What about handlebars? I put Nitto steel bars on the bike. Do I really need steel? I understand it is considered important on the track, but I have weak, scrawny shoulders and arms. What should I be concerned about, other than increasing my strength? I've started doing pushups and sit-ups, and I'll add more exercises soon.
    Stiffer/stronger is usually best on the track. As many have already said it is flat and aero is really all that matters after stiffness, but that only matters as you advance in the ranks. I started off my first few years on a steel beast and it won me a fair share of races as I moved up. It wasn't until I raced at the top level locally that I started to worry about getting more aero and lighter. Lighter really only helps for points races and madisons where you change pace all the time, but even then it is likely not a real issue. I currently have steel nitto bars and have used them for almost 20 years and love them. I am going to upgrade this year finally, but I have not regretted my "heavy" bars in the past.

    My favorite core workout is uphill interval work while standing. Doing repeats of hills that are between 2 and 6 minutes long and close to 5% grade and stay out of the saddle the whole time or as much as you can really works your core and arms. Plus the lower RPM that I use replaces weight training in my book and lets me double up my training effort while working the crap out of my lungs as my heart rate maxes out each time. Until you want the extra equipment for looks and piece of mind, beating people while you ride a cheaper/stronger/heavier bike because you train harder is so much more rewarding. I use to get demolished on climbs by a guy who weighed more than me while he road his 25+ pound training bike with fenders. That just killed my ego each time, but I kept going.

  18. #693
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    I'm very familiar with the satisfaction of beating someone while having worse equipment! A few weeks ago, a thin, young roadie on a fancy road racing bike tried to draft me. He had trouble keeping up with me. I got home and weighed my bike, a mid-90's Bianchi Volpe, loaded with every accessory known to mankind. With my gigantic Kryptonite chain and padlock, the whole setup weighed 48 pounds. The other guy's bike probably weighed less than half of that.

    I also beat a young guy up a hill a few years ago. He was on an unloaded bike, and I was towing two kids in a trailer!
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
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  19. #694
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    Yikes, 48lbs is a lot of bike! I think my 'heavy' beater bike is only ~22lbs, and my race bike is 7.7kg (which is 2lbs over the min still)

  20. #695
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    The lock is eight pounds, so I only carry it when necessary.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
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  21. #696
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    queerpunk, could you explain a bit further why weight doesn't matter on the track? As you may know, I have my first track bike, and it is heavy, and you might be reassuring me. Plus, it's an interesting topic, even if I weren't planning to start this sport.
    Weight matters when you're going against gravity - upward. For a long time. It doesn't matter when you're on the flats. In fact, weight can be helpful on the flats, because of inertia - a body in motion stays in motion, and more weight = more inertia. That's why climbing and crosswinds are opposites: a light rider climbs faster than a heavier one, but the heavier one can gutter the lighter one in the crosswind because at the same speed, the wind slows down a lighter rider more.

    The best track bikes in the world are heavy, because what matters is aerodynamic and stiffness, not weight. the Mavic io/comete wheel combination weighs about twice as much as a nice road wheelset.

    as Baby Puke said, some people want light wheels - they'll accelerate faster. But unless you're riding long climbs, the only effect of a light bike is greater comfort when you're carrying it up the stairs to your apartment.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  22. #697
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's all true, and it's good you put it in that perspective. Of course, there are limits. I'm sure if my track bike weighed 48 pounds, its weight would cause me problems in races.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
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  23. #698
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    That article made me all warm and fuzzy.
    Now you are a true sprinter.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  24. #699
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    Yeah, that's all true, and it's good you put it in that perspective. Of course, there are limits. I'm sure if my track bike weighed 48 pounds, its weight would cause me problems in races.
    Agreed.

    A heavier bike is harder to accelerate and decelerate. This hurts in a race with lots of speed changes. For steady-state time trial efforts, it's less of a factor.

    People say that "weight doesn't matter on the track", but that's really comparing it to road racing where weight on a course with significant inclines is a big deal.

    "Weight doesn't matter on the track" the same way that 230lb guys can be competitive in Pro/1/2 crits...on a flat-ish course.

    The maxim should be, "Don't freak out if your track bike isn't 15lbs because 24lb track bikes are normal, even at the world level."
    Last edited by carleton; 03-20-14 at 03:33 PM.

  25. #700
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    To put weight into perspective, I weighed my old 57cm Felt TK1 with SRM, Mavic Io, Mavic Comete, etc... It was over 20lbs/9kg.

    I've heard that the BT Strealth is heavier.

    I really think that we should take note of Bike/Body weight ratios more than simply bike weight.

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