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  1. #701
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    Carleton, that's very well put. I'll try to put my scale away.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
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  2. #702
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    carleton - yeah, "weight doesn't matter" is a bit of an oversimplification.

    more accurate would be, "weight doesn't matter nearly as much as some people a) think it does or b) are willing to pay to get rid of it."

    you're right that a heavy bike is harder to accelerate, but a (fairly light) 160lb rider with a (moderate) 20lb bike, losing 3 pounds (3 friggin' pounds! that's a ton) of frame weight only winds up being .016 of the package.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  3. #703
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    A 160lb guy riding a 17lb bike is like a 200lb guy riding a 21.25lb bike

  4. #704
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Although I focus mostly on crits and don't expect to crush it in the mountains, I still want a lighter bike because it's easier to accelerate and I have an easier time keeping up on the climbs or I'm using less energy.

    I personally don't care what my track bike weighs.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  5. #705
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Also, if you have a fancy front wheel that you use on the road, it should be fine for the track. You will have to get an allen head skewer for like $10.

    But, you won't need one for a while. Don't be the guy in the beginner races with a disc in the rear and 808 in the front

    Maybe wait till you progress to races where the other guys equip the fancy gear, too.
    Where's the line on too flexy there? Does 16 spoke 45 mm carbon wheel for a 170 lb guy sound like it's going to be unpleasant?
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  6. #706
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wens View Post
    Where's the line on too flexy there? Does 16 spoke 45 mm carbon wheel for a 170 lb guy sound like it's going to be unpleasant?
    Sounds OK...but you aren't providing much detail.

  7. #707
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    Inertia is not the ***** that gravity is. I constantly am dropped by people on long climbs that I look at their ride and see I put MORE power than them the whole way up to go slower. But on the track I blow the wheels off the same people, because power-to-weight means everything on a 8% climb, and means very little on a flat velodrome.

    As for acceleration your gear choice is going to make a much bigger impact than you wheel/bike choice.

  8. #708
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    A 160lb guy riding a 17lb bike is like a 200lb guy riding a 21.25lb bike
    Dammit, i need a 12lb bike! UCI bike fit and weight restrictions = morphological discrimination
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  9. #709
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Anyone have a diagram of a 333m track sprint wind-up? a bit like this one for a 250m track (thanks to the Up! up! up! guys):
    F200-all-laps.png
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    Anyone have a diagram of a 333m track sprint wind-up? a bit like this one for a 250m track (thanks to the Up! up! up! guys):
    F200-all-laps.png

    Thanks for sharing! Our 138m track that first dive is tricky to say the least, its such a tight turn that it makes or breaks your lap. I would think a 333 would be similar but you don't get the same downhill effect on your jump down, so it might be worth taking it sharper? So you are hitting the black line right around the apex. Just my guess.

  11. #711
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    I'm looking at cadence and considering my gearing. As an example, in a 10 lap (450m track) scratch I maintain an average of around 105 rpm and max out in the final sprint at 140 rpm with my heart rate at max. I finished just behind the first few, coming in around 6th, which I'm relatively happy with, but do feel like my sprint at the end isn't as strong as some others. I'm on 86.5 GI.
    How do these cadences compare to others here? Should I be working on increasing these, or does it look like I could manage a bigger gear? All input welcome, and if more information helps let me know.

  12. #712
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flip.flop View Post
    I'm looking at cadence and considering my gearing. .... does it look like I could manage a bigger gear? All input welcome, and if more information helps let me know.
    Have you tried a bigger gear? everyone is different, and you don't really say how comfortable you are feeling at those revs during the race, but the best way to find out if you can push a bigger gear, is to try to push it!
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  13. #713
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Next little random question; any tips on keeping the bike down on the black line, when going through the banking at speed? we've got pretty tight turns and the g's tend to throw you up track.
    ta
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  14. #714
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    Next little random question; any tips on keeping the bike down on the black line, when going through the banking at speed? we've got pretty tight turns and the g's tend to throw you up track.
    ta
    people tend to find what works for them -
    one thing to do is to look further through the turn - that will keep you focused on where you're going, not where you are.
    some people like leaning their head over on to their right shoulder. Helps with the above.
    some people like putting more pressure on the handlebars.

    one of the things i learned when I rode at the Chicago Velo Campus (150-something meters? 55deg) was that there was a spot on the exit of the turn that wants to kick a rider outward. Took me some laps to learn how that spot worked - but it turns out I forget what I did to stay on the black.

    Oops.

    I'm going to go make myself some more coffee.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  15. #715
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Thanks Queerpunk. Seems i should spend some time just practicing turns
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  16. #716
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    Next little random question; any tips on keeping the bike down on the black line, when going through the banking at speed? we've got pretty tight turns and the g's tend to throw you up track.
    ta
    Try This:

    encino has fairly tight radius turns with less than ideal banking.
    someone suggested this line to me:
    float up to the red line after crossing the Pursuit line. Enter the turn at the Red Line. begin a gradual diagonal drop from the red line to the black line, that results in you reaching the black line before the center of the turn.

    I started playing with this during warm-up laps, as i was looking for a way to maximize the line for Flying 200's on this track. i first discovered that it was better to go up to the red line later, sort of a whip up to the red, just before entering the turn, this changes body position over the bike- more lean. more repeats of this actually resulted in me not really rising towards the red at all- but using the body positioning that resulted form that move, without really changing position in the pole lane.. if that makes any sense? play around with it..
    Last edited by Quinn8it; 03-25-14 at 10:39 AM.

  17. #717
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Try This:

    encino has fairly tight radius turns with less than ideal banking.
    someone suggested this line to me:
    float up to the red line after crossing the Pursuit line. Enter the turn at the Red Line. begin a gradual diagonal drop from the red line to the black line, that results in you reaching the black line before the center of the turn.

    I started playing with this during warm-up laps, as i was looking for a way to maximize the line for Flying 200's on this track. i first discovered that it was better to go up to the red line later, sort of a whip up to the red, just before entering the turn, this changes body position over the bike- more lean. more repeats of this actually resulted in me not really rising towards the red at all- but using the body positioning that resulted form that move, without really changing position in the pole lane.. if that makes any sense? play around with it..
    +1 about how to enter the turn.

    Yeah, DLV is like that, too. The radius of the turns ideally requires steeper banking than 37deg.

    I'm notorious for not holding a line in a flying 200. What worked for me was to look at the point at the end of turn 4 where the curve turns to straight. Whenever I remembered to do that, I would shoot through the turn and come out flying on the black line.

  18. #718
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    Next little random question; any tips on keeping the bike down on the black line, when going through the banking at speed? we've got pretty tight turns and the g's tend to throw you up track.
    ta
    Stop trying, at least during competitions. The amount of time you gain is so small by staying on the black line, if not even negative, versus just going all out that it really doesn't matter. I suggest actually trying to stay between the black and the red on corners and not stay on the black line. During practice I usually tell people to focus on the red line as a target as it is easier to hit, then work your way down. But once you are going all out, trying to hold the back line is worse than just letting the bike go where it wants. Also if you let the bike float up just a bit in the corners you are actually staying level with the ground as your center of gravity drops in the corners. So fighting to stay down is actually wasting even more energy by changing your elevation, the only thing worse than bad aero is elevation change.

    Bottom line you are not going to go faster in a 200 by holding the black line, you are going to go faster by letting your bike float a bit and just trying to pedal the cranks off as fast as you can. The other advice above was pretty good and still matters as you don't want to float too high. So keep the arms relaxed, look ahead, gear up just a touch if your RPMs are too high and practice in a lower gear to get use to the high RPM.

  19. #719
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    I actually agree with that- generally speaking.

    But- on a track like Encino where the curve on shaving 10ths below 12" 200m's gets really really steep- maximizing your line comes into play.

  20. #720
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    any recommendations on a stem? currently have a generic 110 mm with 7 degree rise/drop and 26mm handlebar clamping area and 1 1/8 steerer tube. looking for 90mm and 25.4 mm clamping area since i decided to upgrade my handlebars to nitto 123s since the bar that came with the bike are too wide. would going plus or minus a degree based 0n what I can find change things much?

  21. #721
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    Next little random question; any tips on keeping the bike down on the black line, when going through the banking at speed? we've got pretty tight turns and the g's tend to throw you up track.
    ta
    What is your event and what is the distance, shape and banking of the track?

    IMO, the answer is different for different tracks and events. Pursuit is different from a flying 200 while both are done "at speed". And racers who achieve a high level of results at the world and olympic level are good at both holding the black line and laying down power in an aero position.

    In fact, I attended a pursuit clinic a couple years ago at Velo Sports Center in LA 250 m 45 degree banking put on by British coaches. They had me practicing riding between the blue band and the black line at over speed. YMMV
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  22. #722
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dro.pru View Post
    any recommendations on a stem? currently have a generic 110 mm with 7 degree rise/drop and 26mm handlebar clamping area and 1 1/8 steerer tube. looking for 90mm and 25.4 mm clamping area since i decided to upgrade my handlebars to nitto 123s since the bar that came with the bike are too wide. would going plus or minus a degree based 0n what I can find change things much?
    I bought this one for my Nitto 125s: https://www.benscycle.com/p-2575-dim...ess-stem.aspx? Nothing fancy, but solid and cheap.

  23. #723
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    If you are riding the Steel Nittos (123 or125) you need to use the Steel Nitto stem as they don't mate with aluminum stems..
    If aluminum- I go thomson. 25.4 are usually available on eBay

  24. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    I bought this one for my Nitto 125s: https://www.benscycle.com/p-2575-dim...ess-stem.aspx? Nothing fancy, but solid and cheap.
    Awesome, I was actually looking at that exact stem. Thanks Vance Mac.

  25. #725
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    For the holding your line question ... I think the Pervis Kilo video from worlds this year on you tube is the great example of how to hold your line. And if you notice he tosses his bike a bit as he accelerates as well ... I like that too ... stiff bike is bad for me. His bike touches the red line a few times and the black line more than not, but in general his bike is between the lines, not on the black. He is staying low, but not actively trying to hold his bike on the line and just seems to be worried about going forward more than anything.

    To Hermes, the British coaches who had you "practice" on below the black lines is one thing, but I certainly hope they were not advocating that you need to ride that way in competition, even for a pursuit. A lot of coaches scare/ruin riders by having them practice stuff that is good to practice, but it is just that practice to make you better, not something to think about when racing and they forget to tell you that. Once you get into a race you need to be more fluid and use your training to help you, but not run your race as you would a training session. You don't have to try and race perfect like a robot, let the bike go and make it go forward and let your training and practice keep you where you need to be, but never fight the bike. I am not saying you said all this, but I think it is important to differentiate practice from race.

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