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  1. #876
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure match sprints are Cat 2+ for elite nationals. I was looking at this a little last year. Because I am OBRA, it is unclear to me what my category would be if I were to buy a USAC license to race nationals (relevant because masters nats are right next door this year). If I need to earn my way up to Cat3 or Cat2 from scratch, I'd have to do a sht ton of racing this year out-of-state.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  2. #877
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    I'm pretty sure match sprints are Cat 2+ for elite nationals. I was looking at this a little last year. Because I am OBRA, it is unclear to me what my category would be if I were to buy a USAC license to race nationals (relevant because masters nats are right next door this year). If I need to earn my way up to Cat3 or Cat2 from scratch, I'd have to do a sht ton of racing this year out-of-state.
    In my experience, when a racer applies for an upgrade to 3 or 2, the USAC Regional rep will contact the local track's race director to see if the rider is up to the task in terms of speed, handling, and skill.

    The level of talent at Alpenrose is abnormally high.

  3. #878
    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
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    Going back a little to the state/ regional championship issue. In case people don't know, I am the director at the Penrose Park Velodrome in St. Louis.

    There are 3 reasons that we allow anyone to compete in our State Championship Events.

    First off is that almost all of our big events are some sort of championship. To only allow Missouri riders in them, we would not allow any regional racers to do any of the big events at our track. They would be able to the training series, but not anything else.

    Second, our track is a ~15 minute drive from Illinois. Many of regular races are Illinois residence. There are 2 tracks in IL, but its a 6 hour drive for them. So in theory they can go participate in those state races, but not really. It is a quirk of USAC rules, but ideal the So. IL racers would be a part of our local association. To disallow our regulars from participating in the big race would be a problem.

    Third, its a lot of work and cost to throw an event. We want as many people as possible to participate. USAC has rules against giving out state awards for our of state riders. But if people want to participate in the race, it makes it a better event for everyone.
    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

  4. #879
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    I'm pretty sure match sprints are Cat 2+ for elite nationals. I was looking at this a little last year. Because I am OBRA, it is unclear to me what my category would be if I were to buy a USAC license to race nationals (relevant because masters nats are right next door this year). If I need to earn my way up to Cat3 or Cat2 from scratch, I'd have to do a sht ton of racing this year out-of-state.
    Masters nats cat 3 is enough for the mass start unless you are old enough then it is unlimited.
    It looks like elites consider match sprints to be mass start rules.

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/USACWeb/for...k-Chapter7.pdf

    7D. Track Championships

    7D1.
    Track Championships shall be conducted over ten events: scratch race, sprint, Keirin, time trial, individual pursuit, team pursuit, team sprint, points race, and Madison.

    7D2. Track National Championships
    shall be held on certified velodromes.

    7D3. Category Restrictions.
    For track mass start national championships classes, riders must meet the following category restrictions:

    Men Women

    9
    -16 No Restriction 9-18 No Restriction

    17-18* Cat 1/2/3 Only

    Elite* Cat 1/2 Only Elite* Cat 1/2/3 Only

    35-54 Cat 1/2/3 Only 35-54 Cat 1/2/3 Only

    55+ No Restriction 55+ No Restriction

    *
    For the purposes of the Elite group only, sprints will be considered a mass start event.

  5. #880
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    My problem is I'm afraid if I apply for a USAC license having only raced in OBRA, I'll have to fight my way even into Cat3. I'll have to do some more inquiry this year.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  6. #881
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slindell View Post
    Masters nats cat 3 is enough for the mass start unless you are old enough then it is unlimited.
    It looks like elites consider match sprints to be mass start rules.

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/USACWeb/for...k-Chapter7.pdf

    7D. Track Championships

    7D1.
    Track Championships shall be conducted over ten events: scratch race, sprint, Keirin, time trial, individual pursuit, team pursuit, team sprint, points race, and Madison.

    7D2. Track National Championships
    shall be held on certified velodromes.

    7D3. Category Restrictions.
    For track mass start national championships classes, riders must meet the following category restrictions:

    Men Women

    9
    -16 No Restriction 9-18 No Restriction

    17-18* Cat 1/2/3 Only

    Elite* Cat 1/2 Only Elite* Cat 1/2/3 Only

    35-54 Cat 1/2/3 Only 35-54 Cat 1/2/3 Only

    55+ No Restriction 55+ No Restriction

    *
    For the purposes of the Elite group only, sprints will be considered a mass start event.
    Hah, so I need to be a 2 to go to nats. -_-

    Oh the impossibility of getting a cat 2 in enduro races as a "pure sprinter".. What a stupid rule.
    Last edited by Jaytron; 04-29-14 at 02:56 PM.
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  7. #882
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Hah, so I need to be a 2 to go to nats. -_-

    Oh the impossibility of getting a cat 2 in enduro races as a "pure sprinter".. What a stupid rule.
    I did it- and I'm twice your age!

  8. #883
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Hah, so I need to be a 2 to go to nats. -_-

    Oh the impossibility of getting a cat 2 in enduro races as a "pure sprinter".. What a stupid rule.
    Start hitting up omniums. Sprinters can do well in anything that is not a long points, scratch or madison. Shorter stuff, pure sprinters should be able to have some success.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  9. #884
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Start hitting up omniums. Sprinters can do well in anything that is not a long points, scratch or madison. Shorter stuff, pure sprinters should be able to have some success.
    I think 3 will be doable, but getting to 2 means racing 1/2/3's and all of those races are super long.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    I did it- and I'm twice your age!
    Beast. Haha These endurance monkeys can ride me off their wheel in 30lap stuffs.
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  10. #885
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    2 things I know about a "Pure Sprinter" who can't win their way out of Cat-4 omnium races.

    1) if by some chance they make it to the finals they are blasted- and my job is easy

    2) they've got no chance if I go long and kick twice..

    I think sprinters deciding that 30lap races are too long is a cop-out. this is bicycles not Track And Field- there is no such thing as a pure sprint at the Velodrome- even our shortest event, the 200m is a solid 25" effort..
    @VanceMac - Cue the energy system graph

  11. #886
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Well, nearly all the omniums I have been to at the four California velodromes have been on the short side. Fewer than 10% have had anything longer than 40 laps (and almost always include one very short elimination race). And while many "sprint only" racers probably wouldn't be competitive in a 1/2/3 field, they certainly could get omnium points in most cat 4 fields. Furthermore, if someone were a successful sprinter, and actually raced most of the cat 4 omniums available to them... I think most USAC officials would take that into consideration.

    That said, we are in such a small niche with so few events, we all have trouble upgrading. But again, I think USAC realizes that and is willing to be flexible with people who are racing consistently with some measure of demonstrable success.

  12. #887
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    On that topic, what are "upgrade keirins"? Are they exactly what they imply? I saw a flyer that the SD velodrome was doing this. Maybe worth the trip down. Or maybe I can get it organized for norcal.
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  13. #888
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    [Psst, hey kid: Kilo.]

  14. #889
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    Looking into getting a carbon handlebar. Presently, I'm using steel nitto 125 bars. I know the 3T Scattos are quite popular now. However, I'm not too comfortable with the narrower bar width. I was looking at the Easton EC90 handlebars 40cm, either the conventional track bar or the ergo version. One problem I'm having in making a decision is that I can't seem to find a consensus on the reach and drop dimension for either of these bars. One site has the conventional EC90 bar at 75 reach and 130 drop, another site has it at 100 reach and 160 drop. Can anyone provide the correct specs for these bars?

    Thanks for any information

  15. #890
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pole Line Stand View Post
    Looking into getting a carbon handlebar. Presently, I'm using steel nitto 125 bars. I know the 3T Scattos are quite popular now. However, I'm not too comfortable with the narrower bar width. I was looking at the Easton EC90 handlebars 40cm, either the conventional track bar or the ergo version. One problem I'm having in making a decision is that I can't seem to find a consensus on the reach and drop dimension for either of these bars. One site has the conventional EC90 bar at 75 reach and 130 drop, another site has it at 100 reach and 160 drop. Can anyone provide the correct specs for these bars?

    Thanks for any information
    Speaking roughly:

    The Nitto B125 are very similar in reach and drop to the 3T Scatto.
    The Nitto B123 are very similar in reach and drop to the Easton EC90. The EC90s have been called a carbon replica of the B123, which was the sprinter's handlebar of reference for years.

    I've used all of them over the years and I currently own EC90s (38cm), Scattos (37cm), and B125 (36cm).


    So, if you can put your hands on some 40cm Nitto B123 (much deeper reach and drop than your 125s) you'll have a good sense of what the EC90s will feel like.

  16. #891
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    [Psst, hey kid: Kilo.]
    LOL Shhhhhhh
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  17. #892
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Speaking roughly:

    The Nitto B125 are very similar in reach and drop to the 3T Scatto.
    The Nitto B123 are very similar in reach and drop to the Easton EC90. The EC90s have been called a carbon replica of the B123, which was the sprinter's handlebar of reference for years.

    I've used all of them over the years and I currently own EC90s (38cm), Scattos (37cm), and B125 (36cm).


    So, if you can put your hands on some 40cm Nitto B123 (much deeper reach and drop than your 125s) you'll have a good sense of what the EC90s will feel like.
    That makes it simple. Thank you.

  18. #893
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Here is a video from qualifying round for the 2012 Elite Track Scratch Race. I am the videographer and this segment is the closing few laps. One racer has already lapped the field.

    The video does not really capture how fast this race was. Also take note of the movements in the pack and relative position of the racers. Would you self select to race with these guys?

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  19. #894
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Here is a video from qualifying round for the 2012 Elite Track Scratch Race. I am the videographer and this segment is the closing few laps. One racer has already lapped the field.

    The video does not really capture how fast this race was. Also take note of the movements in the pack and relative position of the racers. Would you self select to race with these guys?

    IF this is directed at me; no, I would not. Not interested in the national endurance stuff, just the sprinting stuff.
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  20. #895
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Speaking roughly:

    The Nitto B125 are very similar in reach and drop to the 3T Scatto.
    True- for the less common 37cm Scatto- not the 35cm

  21. #896
    VeloSIRraptor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Oh the impossibility of getting a cat 2 in enduro races as a "pure sprinter".. What a stupid rule.
    I dunno about that, xengravity got his 1 this last year IIRC, and its not like he got all the 2--> 1 upgrade points from enduro races. I think he did it with a bit of travel for sprint tournaments, but chin up, it can be done!

    (he had it a bit easier admitedly, with four tracks within 4 hours)
    Last edited by Hida Yanra; 05-02-14 at 02:57 PM. Reason: additional clarity
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  22. #897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    I dunno about that, xengravity got his 1 this last year IIRC, and its not like he is getting points from enduro races. I think he did it with a bit of travel for sprint tournaments, but chin up, it can be done!

    (he had it a bit easier admitedly, with four tracks within 4 hours)
    Actually I believe the 3->2 was mostly points from enduro type races like scratch and points with a few kierins and chariot races thrown in. There is a certain base level of capacity that should be enough to get you to the end of most cat 3 races if you surf the pack well enough. If you don't have that you will probably be gassed by the time the motor drops off on a kierin or the third round of sprinting.

  23. #898
    VeloSIRraptor
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    sorry- as I re-read that it doesn't have the tone I meant.

    He's a REAL fast dude, and a guy I quite respect. Yeah, the 3-->2 was largely from enduro stuff with good tactics, I was thinking about his 2-->1, sorry for any confusion.

    I edited the previous post for clarity.
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  24. #899
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    True- for the less common 37cm Scatto- not the 35cm
    Yes!

    The 35s have less reach and width. I'm not sure about the drop.

    The 35s seem to be en vogue lately from what I've heard. A few guys that I know who have 37s are looking to move to 35s.

    I did a kilo on some 33cm Alpinas. I was 1" off of my PB using them, so I don't think much was lost. But they require a commitment. You won't love them the first time you use them.

  25. #900
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton
    You won't love them the first time you use them.
    I did-
    But admittedly I've been 35's or 36's for years now- so it wasn't a big change.

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