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Old 04-29-14, 11:28 AM   #876
Brian Ratliff
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I'm pretty sure match sprints are Cat 2+ for elite nationals. I was looking at this a little last year. Because I am OBRA, it is unclear to me what my category would be if I were to buy a USAC license to race nationals (relevant because masters nats are right next door this year). If I need to earn my way up to Cat3 or Cat2 from scratch, I'd have to do a sht ton of racing this year out-of-state.
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Old 04-29-14, 12:42 PM   #877
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I'm pretty sure match sprints are Cat 2+ for elite nationals. I was looking at this a little last year. Because I am OBRA, it is unclear to me what my category would be if I were to buy a USAC license to race nationals (relevant because masters nats are right next door this year). If I need to earn my way up to Cat3 or Cat2 from scratch, I'd have to do a sht ton of racing this year out-of-state.
In my experience, when a racer applies for an upgrade to 3 or 2, the USAC Regional rep will contact the local track's race director to see if the rider is up to the task in terms of speed, handling, and skill.

The level of talent at Alpenrose is abnormally high.
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Old 04-29-14, 12:50 PM   #878
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Going back a little to the state/ regional championship issue. In case people don't know, I am the director at the Penrose Park Velodrome in St. Louis.

There are 3 reasons that we allow anyone to compete in our State Championship Events.

First off is that almost all of our big events are some sort of championship. To only allow Missouri riders in them, we would not allow any regional racers to do any of the big events at our track. They would be able to the training series, but not anything else.

Second, our track is a ~15 minute drive from Illinois. Many of regular races are Illinois residence. There are 2 tracks in IL, but its a 6 hour drive for them. So in theory they can go participate in those state races, but not really. It is a quirk of USAC rules, but ideal the So. IL racers would be a part of our local association. To disallow our regulars from participating in the big race would be a problem.

Third, its a lot of work and cost to throw an event. We want as many people as possible to participate. USAC has rules against giving out state awards for our of state riders. But if people want to participate in the race, it makes it a better event for everyone.
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Old 04-29-14, 01:45 PM   #879
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I'm pretty sure match sprints are Cat 2+ for elite nationals. I was looking at this a little last year. Because I am OBRA, it is unclear to me what my category would be if I were to buy a USAC license to race nationals (relevant because masters nats are right next door this year). If I need to earn my way up to Cat3 or Cat2 from scratch, I'd have to do a sht ton of racing this year out-of-state.
Masters nats cat 3 is enough for the mass start unless you are old enough then it is unlimited.
It looks like elites consider match sprints to be mass start rules.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/USACWeb/for...k-Chapter7.pdf

7D. Track Championships

7D1.
Track Championships shall be conducted over ten events: scratch race, sprint, Keirin, time trial, individual pursuit, team pursuit, team sprint, points race, and Madison.

7D2. Track National Championships
shall be held on certified velodromes.

7D3. Category Restrictions.
For track mass start national championships classes, riders must meet the following category restrictions:

Men Women

9
-16 No Restriction 9-18 No Restriction

17-18* Cat 1/2/3 Only

Elite* Cat 1/2 Only Elite* Cat 1/2/3 Only

35-54 Cat 1/2/3 Only 35-54 Cat 1/2/3 Only

55+ No Restriction 55+ No Restriction

*
For the purposes of the Elite group only, sprints will be considered a mass start event.
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Old 04-29-14, 01:49 PM   #880
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My problem is I'm afraid if I apply for a USAC license having only raced in OBRA, I'll have to fight my way even into Cat3. I'll have to do some more inquiry this year.
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Old 04-29-14, 01:51 PM   #881
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Masters nats cat 3 is enough for the mass start unless you are old enough then it is unlimited.
It looks like elites consider match sprints to be mass start rules.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/USACWeb/for...k-Chapter7.pdf

7D. Track Championships

7D1.
Track Championships shall be conducted over ten events: scratch race, sprint, Keirin, time trial, individual pursuit, team pursuit, team sprint, points race, and Madison.

7D2. Track National Championships
shall be held on certified velodromes.

7D3. Category Restrictions.
For track mass start national championships classes, riders must meet the following category restrictions:

Men Women

9
-16 No Restriction 9-18 No Restriction

17-18* Cat 1/2/3 Only

Elite* Cat 1/2 Only Elite* Cat 1/2/3 Only

35-54 Cat 1/2/3 Only 35-54 Cat 1/2/3 Only

55+ No Restriction 55+ No Restriction

*
For the purposes of the Elite group only, sprints will be considered a mass start event.
Hah, so I need to be a 2 to go to nats. -_-

Oh the impossibility of getting a cat 2 in enduro races as a "pure sprinter".. What a stupid rule.

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Old 04-29-14, 01:59 PM   #882
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Hah, so I need to be a 2 to go to nats. -_-

Oh the impossibility of getting a cat 2 in enduro races as a "pure sprinter".. What a stupid rule.
I did it- and I'm twice your age!
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Old 04-29-14, 02:08 PM   #883
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Hah, so I need to be a 2 to go to nats. -_-

Oh the impossibility of getting a cat 2 in enduro races as a "pure sprinter".. What a stupid rule.
Start hitting up omniums. Sprinters can do well in anything that is not a long points, scratch or madison. Shorter stuff, pure sprinters should be able to have some success.
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Old 04-29-14, 02:12 PM   #884
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Start hitting up omniums. Sprinters can do well in anything that is not a long points, scratch or madison. Shorter stuff, pure sprinters should be able to have some success.
I think 3 will be doable, but getting to 2 means racing 1/2/3's and all of those races are super long.
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I did it- and I'm twice your age!
Beast. Haha These endurance monkeys can ride me off their wheel in 30lap stuffs.
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Old 04-29-14, 02:30 PM   #885
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2 things I know about a "Pure Sprinter" who can't win their way out of Cat-4 omnium races.

1) if by some chance they make it to the finals they are blasted- and my job is easy

2) they've got no chance if I go long and kick twice..

I think sprinters deciding that 30lap races are too long is a cop-out. this is bicycles not Track And Field- there is no such thing as a pure sprint at the Velodrome- even our shortest event, the 200m is a solid 25" effort..
@VanceMac - Cue the energy system graph
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Old 04-29-14, 03:44 PM   #886
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Well, nearly all the omniums I have been to at the four California velodromes have been on the short side. Fewer than 10% have had anything longer than 40 laps (and almost always include one very short elimination race). And while many "sprint only" racers probably wouldn't be competitive in a 1/2/3 field, they certainly could get omnium points in most cat 4 fields. Furthermore, if someone were a successful sprinter, and actually raced most of the cat 4 omniums available to them... I think most USAC officials would take that into consideration.

That said, we are in such a small niche with so few events, we all have trouble upgrading. But again, I think USAC realizes that and is willing to be flexible with people who are racing consistently with some measure of demonstrable success.
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Old 04-29-14, 04:42 PM   #887
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On that topic, what are "upgrade keirins"? Are they exactly what they imply? I saw a flyer that the SD velodrome was doing this. Maybe worth the trip down. Or maybe I can get it organized for norcal.
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Old 04-29-14, 06:05 PM   #888
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Old 04-29-14, 06:42 PM   #889
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Looking into getting a carbon handlebar. Presently, I'm using steel nitto 125 bars. I know the 3T Scattos are quite popular now. However, I'm not too comfortable with the narrower bar width. I was looking at the Easton EC90 handlebars 40cm, either the conventional track bar or the ergo version. One problem I'm having in making a decision is that I can't seem to find a consensus on the reach and drop dimension for either of these bars. One site has the conventional EC90 bar at 75 reach and 130 drop, another site has it at 100 reach and 160 drop. Can anyone provide the correct specs for these bars?

Thanks for any information
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Old 04-29-14, 11:18 PM   #890
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Looking into getting a carbon handlebar. Presently, I'm using steel nitto 125 bars. I know the 3T Scattos are quite popular now. However, I'm not too comfortable with the narrower bar width. I was looking at the Easton EC90 handlebars 40cm, either the conventional track bar or the ergo version. One problem I'm having in making a decision is that I can't seem to find a consensus on the reach and drop dimension for either of these bars. One site has the conventional EC90 bar at 75 reach and 130 drop, another site has it at 100 reach and 160 drop. Can anyone provide the correct specs for these bars?

Thanks for any information
Speaking roughly:

The Nitto B125 are very similar in reach and drop to the 3T Scatto.
The Nitto B123 are very similar in reach and drop to the Easton EC90. The EC90s have been called a carbon replica of the B123, which was the sprinter's handlebar of reference for years.

I've used all of them over the years and I currently own EC90s (38cm), Scattos (37cm), and B125 (36cm).


So, if you can put your hands on some 40cm Nitto B123 (much deeper reach and drop than your 125s) you'll have a good sense of what the EC90s will feel like.
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Old 04-30-14, 01:36 AM   #891
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LOL Shhhhhhh
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Old 04-30-14, 03:44 AM   #892
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Speaking roughly:

The Nitto B125 are very similar in reach and drop to the 3T Scatto.
The Nitto B123 are very similar in reach and drop to the Easton EC90. The EC90s have been called a carbon replica of the B123, which was the sprinter's handlebar of reference for years.

I've used all of them over the years and I currently own EC90s (38cm), Scattos (37cm), and B125 (36cm).


So, if you can put your hands on some 40cm Nitto B123 (much deeper reach and drop than your 125s) you'll have a good sense of what the EC90s will feel like.
That makes it simple. Thank you.
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Old 04-30-14, 08:33 AM   #893
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Here is a video from qualifying round for the 2012 Elite Track Scratch Race. I am the videographer and this segment is the closing few laps. One racer has already lapped the field.

The video does not really capture how fast this race was. Also take note of the movements in the pack and relative position of the racers. Would you self select to race with these guys?

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Old 04-30-14, 08:51 AM   #894
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Here is a video from qualifying round for the 2012 Elite Track Scratch Race. I am the videographer and this segment is the closing few laps. One racer has already lapped the field.

The video does not really capture how fast this race was. Also take note of the movements in the pack and relative position of the racers. Would you self select to race with these guys?

IF this is directed at me; no, I would not. Not interested in the national endurance stuff, just the sprinting stuff.
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Old 04-30-14, 09:48 AM   #895
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Speaking roughly:

The Nitto B125 are very similar in reach and drop to the 3T Scatto.
True- for the less common 37cm Scatto- not the 35cm
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Old 05-02-14, 10:00 AM   #896
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Oh the impossibility of getting a cat 2 in enduro races as a "pure sprinter".. What a stupid rule.
I dunno about that, xengravity got his 1 this last year IIRC, and its not like he got all the 2--> 1 upgrade points from enduro races. I think he did it with a bit of travel for sprint tournaments, but chin up, it can be done!

(he had it a bit easier admitedly, with four tracks within 4 hours)

Last edited by Hida Yanra; 05-02-14 at 01:57 PM. Reason: additional clarity
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Old 05-02-14, 01:54 PM   #897
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I dunno about that, xengravity got his 1 this last year IIRC, and its not like he is getting points from enduro races. I think he did it with a bit of travel for sprint tournaments, but chin up, it can be done!

(he had it a bit easier admitedly, with four tracks within 4 hours)
Actually I believe the 3->2 was mostly points from enduro type races like scratch and points with a few kierins and chariot races thrown in. There is a certain base level of capacity that should be enough to get you to the end of most cat 3 races if you surf the pack well enough. If you don't have that you will probably be gassed by the time the motor drops off on a kierin or the third round of sprinting.
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Old 05-02-14, 01:57 PM   #898
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sorry- as I re-read that it doesn't have the tone I meant.

He's a REAL fast dude, and a guy I quite respect. Yeah, the 3-->2 was largely from enduro stuff with good tactics, I was thinking about his 2-->1, sorry for any confusion.

I edited the previous post for clarity.
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Old 05-02-14, 03:28 PM   #899
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True- for the less common 37cm Scatto- not the 35cm
Yes!

The 35s have less reach and width. I'm not sure about the drop.

The 35s seem to be en vogue lately from what I've heard. A few guys that I know who have 37s are looking to move to 35s.

I did a kilo on some 33cm Alpinas. I was 1" off of my PB using them, so I don't think much was lost. But they require a commitment. You won't love them the first time you use them.
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Old 05-02-14, 03:56 PM   #900
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You won't love them the first time you use them.
I did-
But admittedly I've been 35's or 36's for years now- so it wasn't a big change.
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