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  1. #76
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impreza_aL View Post
    since i tend to ride on the tops during a mass start.

  2. #77
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    How the Rotor 3D Track crank compare to the Dura Ace 7710? Are they in the same league?
    Always wondered why I don't see the Rotor often being used at the top events (when SRM is not in use).

  3. #78
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    So, my small random question :-)

    Going by Carleton's recommendation of money-spend order (below for memory refreshement), the basic aerodynamic goodies sit slightly above half way in importance, what are folks' views on the relative advantages between:
    a - mass start aero-helmet, (i've got my beady eye on the Giro Air Attack Shield. Currently ride with a standard road helmet)
    b - super narrow bars (the 33cm Alpina..) - my current bars are 37cm sprint bar, but my shoulders (distance between acromonions) is ~33cm.

    similar prices.

    I'm an enduro, focusing on points, scratch and team pursuit.

    Thanks


    (in my humble opinion) spend money in this general order:

    - Track season pass (ride/race as much as possible)
    - Road Bike
    - *basic* equipment (chainrings, cogs, tools). Notice that I didn't say fancy carbon or aero gear.
    - Race entry fees (but this should be covered in the season pass)
    - Clinics
    - Skinsuit, aero helmet, booties
    - Diet for Athletes book. This will change your energy and fat levels.
    - Gym membership (if you plan to be a sprinter)
    - Coaching (optional really)
    - Travel to other tracks for regional type events to broaden your horizions
    - Aero front wheel
    - Fancy carbon/custom frame
    - Aero disc
    I would get bars first. But, I wouldn't use the 33cm Alpinas for mass start. They are very uncomfortable for sprint and especially mass start. I would consider 35 or 37cm Scattos.


    Quote Originally Posted by Impreza_aL View Post
    i have the scatto 35s going to try those for mass start. i also ordered some deda 36s for both the road and track. i'll probably end up using the dedas since i tend to ride on the tops during a mass start.
    u wot m8?

  4. #79
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    u wot m8?


    am i the only one who does this?

    actually this only started when i started riding a road bike. i do it crits too

  5. #80
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Yes?

    PedalRoom

    Hey I just met you,
    and this is crazy,
    but here's my Strava,
    follow me maybe.

  6. #81
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8bits View Post
    How the Rotor 3D Track crank compare to the Dura Ace 7710? Are they in the same league?
    Always wondered why I don't see the Rotor often being used at the top events (when SRM is not in use).
    When it comes to Shimano, it seems that their mantra is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." They got it right with their Dura Ace Track Cranks. It's a design that is difficult to improve upon.

    ROTOR cranks haven't proved themselves to have any advantage over Sugino 75, Dura Ace, or Omniums for sprinters and Campy for enduros. But, they haven't proven themselves to be inferior either.

    There aren't very many out there. I've only seen photos of one person using them on a track bike (Jack Lindquist). He's a pretty strong/fast guy. And I think there was a young national level woman sprinter in Colorado using them (I can't recall her name).



    So, there is no reason not to use them. I think people would rather spend less for one of the standard "known" cranksets listed above. Maybe if ROTOR lowered the price and/or gave them to a few popular riders they would become more popular.

  7. #82
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impreza_aL View Post


    am i the only one who does this?

    actually this only started when i started riding a road bike. i do it crits too
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Yes?

    That is the "invisible aerobar" position, mostly used in a breakaway situation. That's not "most of the time". Most of the time should be like this:


  8. #83
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    The key thing that makes me still wrinkle my brow over Impreza_Al's position, though, is that it's not quite IAB - his forearms are a long way from parallel. Add to that a hand position that is in all likelihood a good deal less secure than the drops, and, I wince a bit. Impreza, I think you've got better options than what you do now.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  9. #84
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    i'll figure it out. first half of the season i always in the drops. towards the end i found myself hanging out on top. i just need to lose to the gut.

  10. #85
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impreza_aL View Post
    i'll figure it out. first half of the season i always in the drops. towards the end i found myself hanging out on top. i just need to lose to the gut.
    You just have to mold your body into that position and be comfortable there. This probably means adding a stretching routine.

  11. #86
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    I had to.

    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  12. #87
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    yes i like that!

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    You just have to mold your body into that position and be comfortable there. This probably means adding a stretching routine.
    *shudder* I have really good friends, that are really good bike riders, that do that in crits, and even though I know they'll be ok, it still scares the crap out of me! I guess it's a good way to get people to give you space.

    In totally bad internet etiquette, I'll be the lecture-y new person to the forums. It's not just about aero dynamics, it's a serious safety thing! This video demonstrates the consequences of crashing when on the tops:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtxigEaRT6U

    To be totally depressingly honest, and ruin the humor in the thread, this issue makes me twitch, as I lost a friend earlier this year from a crash where she went over the bars. Not to imply she was riding on the tops, she wasn't, but going over the bars is a consequence from a crash where you're riding on the tops, and going over the bars is dangerous!! Lots of people go over the bars and are ok, but collar bones are common, etc. Track racing is dangerous enough without people doing silly things to make it more dangerous

    IMHO if it's uncomfortable to ride in your drops, fit could be adjusted until flexibility is gained?

    I'm not expert in anything track, and I'm very sorry for the digression to seriousness, just felt like I had to say it! Continue with your regularly scheduled humor!! I'll follow internet protocol from now on

  14. #89
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amybikes View Post
    *shudder* I'm not expert in anything track, and I'm very sorry for the digression to seriousness, just felt like I had to say it! Continue with your regularly scheduled humor!! I'll follow internet protocol from now on
    No, you are spot on, in my opinion. I'm not really a fan of that pseudo-IAB/sphinx position, but whatever you want to do while off the front solo, be my guest. My peeve is when people are doing it in close quarters. I don't care how good you think you are, it's just not as stable and responsive as in the drops.

  15. #90
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amybikes View Post
    *shudder* I have really good friends, that are really good bike riders, that do that in crits, and even though I know they'll be ok, it still scares the crap out of me! I guess it's a good way to get people to give you space.

    In totally bad internet etiquette, I'll be the lecture-y new person to the forums. It's not just about aero dynamics, it's a serious safety thing! This video demonstrates the consequences of crashing when on the tops:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtxigEaRT6U

    To be totally depressingly honest, and ruin the humor in the thread, this issue makes me twitch, as I lost a friend earlier this year from a crash where she went over the bars. Not to imply she was riding on the tops, she wasn't, but going over the bars is a consequence from a crash where you're riding on the tops, and going over the bars is dangerous!! Lots of people go over the bars and are ok, but collar bones are common, etc. Track racing is dangerous enough without people doing silly things to make it more dangerous

    IMHO if it's uncomfortable to ride in your drops, fit could be adjusted until flexibility is gained?

    I'm not expert in anything track, and I'm very sorry for the digression to seriousness, just felt like I had to say it! Continue with your regularly scheduled humor!! I'll follow internet protocol from now on
    I totally agree.

    I should have clarified that he should be comfortable in the drops...not on the hoods. He's on the hoods probably because he is not comfortable in the drops.

    Early on, I never understood why coaches would have me "stay in the drops as much as possible and especially during efforts" on road rides. But it was for this very reason. I notice that early in the training season when doing road efforts (using a HR monitor), for a given effort, my HR will climb 10-20 extra beats per minute when I'm in the drops, meaning that I'm working harder to be there. The reason being is that my muscles never got to relax and get those micro-rests that occur within the pedal stroke. If the muscle is under tension, it cannot relax and rejuvenate for the next stroke. When I incorporate stretching into my regimen, my HR is the same whether I'm in the drops or hoods.

    As a sprinter, being comfortable in the drops is my only option.

    Also, in the example video above, any rider who is following another gets NO BENEFIT from the "invisible aerobar" position because the guy in front of you is breaking the air for you. Having control of the bike is more important.

    THIS scares the sh*t out of me to even watch: Draft Legal Triathlon bike races on a crit course where clip-ons are legal and used even within the pack:



    Instead of using 44cm bars with clip-ons attached, why not just use 40cm bars and have control of the bike, brakes, and shifters as well as being aero? Roadies like 44cm bars for waving back and forth during climbing and sprinting (the benefit of which is debatable). But, those don't happen in these sprint triathlons. Narrow road bars would be optimal.
    Last edited by carleton; 12-13-13 at 03:39 AM.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    mass start aero-helmet, (i've got my beady eye on the Giro Air Attack Shield. Currently ride with a standard road helmet)
    I am so very much waiting for these to arrive here in Oz too. I have the money waiting, but they seem to be taking forever to get approval here. The LBS was told they were due back in Oct, but we're still waiting.....

    I really wonder how they compare to the sprint helmets for aero. They have the great benefit of being able to use them for mass start, road etc as well. With my low riding position due to longer legs, I find with a road helmet and glasses, I'm often looking over or under the frame of my glasses. It's really annoying at times and the attached lens on the Giro I'm hoping would solve this.

  17. #92
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Slowtwitch says the LG course or whatever it is tests consistently faster at 0 yaw, i don't remember who's testing it was though. I'm really interested in seeing the numbers for the specialized evade, and i'd love to get my hands on an air attack and an evade to do coast down tests with. I'll probably end up taking a swag based on other people's data though.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  18. #93
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wens View Post
    Slowtwitch says the LG course or whatever it is tests consistently faster at 0 yaw, i don't remember who's testing it was though. I'm really interested in seeing the numbers for the specialized evade, and i'd love to get my hands on an air attack and an evade to do coast down tests with. I'll probably end up taking a swag based on other people's data though.
    Yes, that anecdote was thrown out by the guy running Ero Sports. Problem is, I still haven't seen his data, and in that post his language didn't exactly instill confidence that he was being objective. Furthermore, all the tests I have seen on the Air Attack are without the shield (which is my favorite part of the helmet, regardless of aerodynamic advantage or not). Lastly, another thing I like about the Air Attack is it's lack of lengthwise vents. In mass start races, I am not keeping my head perfectly still in a perfect aero position. Turn the LG Course sideways like this and I have to believe it is not nearly as aero as the Air Attack (but I'm happy to be swayed by data):


    That said, I'll bet there isn't an apreciable aero difference between the three in real world (mass start) use. I picked the Air Attach for the shield... love not wearing glasses.

  19. #94
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    Does anyone here have first hand experience with the Sphynx (sp?) bars?
    The majority of people at my local track use the Sphynx position with normal drop bars, yet the only guy who rides them (fantastic rider, has won the league four years in a row), is the only guy who doesn't ride the position.
    (I don't plan on buying any, but it seems odd that the only person who has them at my track, is the only one who doesn't use that position)
    Epic/Tarmac/Langster Pro

  20. #95
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    The only time I've seen them used was by a new-ish Cat3 racer (we combined categories for a 1/2/3 field) who insisted on using the bar "hoods" even while swerving up and down all over the track.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  21. #96
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    The only time I've seen them used was by a new-ish Cat3 racer (we combined categories for a 1/2/3 field) who insisted on using the bar "hoods" even while swerving up and down all over the track.
    +1

    They were pretty much a "flash in the pan" fad that had very limited uses. Now they are all but banned by the UCI, so only local racers use them. I don't think I heard anyone actually say that they really liked them. Every time that I saw them, the guy was simply evaluating them.

  22. #97
    JMR
    JMR is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
    Apt comment... Result is a broken collar bone and ribs I believe!

    Nasty! It looks like he caught the NZ (Black) rider's bars or elbow as he was going past and pulled him into him... Is that what you guys reckon?

    JMR

  23. #98
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    When it comes to Shimano, it seems that their mantra is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." They got it right with their Dura Ace Track Cranks. It's a design that is difficult to improve upon.

    ROTOR cranks haven't proved themselves to have any advantage over Sugino 75, Dura Ace, or Omniums for sprinters and Campy for enduros. But, they haven't proven themselves to be inferior either.

    There aren't very many out there. I've only seen photos of one person using them on a track bike (Jack Lindquist). He's a pretty strong/fast guy. And I think there was a young national level woman sprinter in Colorado using them (I can't recall her name).

    Maybe if ROTOR lowered the price and/or gave them to a few popular riders they would become more popular.
    6298_445722192170969_2001070383_n_zpsdf575d7d.jpg

    I'm riding a 130 SRM/Rotor. Nice crank. Not any difference in feel from the Shimano 144 I used or the FSA I had. The extra $$$ come from a lot of machining to make them light for the road crowd. YMMV, I'm not a huge watts guy and a 150-160# all arounder.

  24. #99
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I notice that early in the training season when doing road efforts (using a HR monitor), for a given effort, my HR will climb 10-20 extra beats per minute when I'm in the drops, meaning that I'm working harder to be there. The reason being is that my muscles never got to relax and get those micro-rests that occur within the pedal stroke. If the muscle is under tension, it cannot relax and rejuvenate for the next stroke. When I incorporate stretching into my regimen, my HR is the same whether I'm in the drops or hoods.
    You're well in the ballpark. It's the muscles that are in extension that are "pulling" on your power producing muscles. If you stretch the mirror image muscles you reduce or eliminate this pull. Otherwise you have that constant tension.

    You're also using the muscle in a different extension when in the drops. This creates additional oxygen demand because you're making "untrained" fibers work.

    And depending on your position, you could also be impacting the diaphragm muscles which means your breathing capacity is impacted as well because shallower breath expose less lung surface for transfer.

    Train like you race.

    FWIW, I use the IAB a lot. It's a good position to leverage off of and I can get pretty efficient. Never use it on the track though, and in crits only when I'm at the front of the line. It's a nice way to make those folks behind you work a bit harder; if I'm leading a teammate, or someone I want to keep in a break I'll ride in the drops or even on the hoods.

    Bucket load of my IAB in here:



    I was flatting out leading out with two to go. Came through the corner and realized I was pretty much on the rim.
    Last edited by Racer Ex; 12-12-13 at 07:11 PM.

  25. #100
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Yes, that anecdote was thrown out by the guy running Ero Sports. Problem is, I still haven't seen his data, and in that post his language didn't exactly instill confidence that he was being objective.
    Can't comment on the shield vs. non shield Attack. But Jim's got no dog in that fight and his set up is top notch for 0-7 yaw.

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