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  1. #1051
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    ^^^
    It would probably be fine. Might handle funny if the track is steep. You may need to watch the bottom bracket height though.
    Word... track is 43. The BB is low, and that's actually probably my main concern.

  2. #1052
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I would not recommend road frames at the track. It is a pedal strike issue and that depends on the track. At the Superdrome in Frisco, TX, the banking is 45 degrees but the surface is rough such that sprinters during match sprint competitions will slow down at times on the banking and if the cranks are too long or insufficient bottom bracket clearance, there will be a pedal strike. I watched a guy on a road frame hit twice and slide down the track and took himself out of the competition.

    At tracks like Hellyer that is a 333 meters and 23 degree banking, it is not a problem.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  3. #1053
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    Thinking about going with speedplay for track pedals for track clearance. Think the Track Special pedals are a good idea/necessary, or just more likely to make me fall over?

  4. #1054
    VeloSIRraptor
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    Speedplays will help a little bit, but not enough (in my mind) to bother making the switch.
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  5. #1055
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The B View Post
    Thinking about going with speedplay for track pedals for track clearance. Think the Track Special pedals are a good idea/necessary, or just more likely to make me fall over?
    Speedplays are great pedals, but don't buy them for clearance. All of the modern popular pedals (Shimano, LOOK, Speedplay) clear just fine.

    The Track Special pedals are harder to disengage. Interesting, but not necessary. You cannot adjust the release tension on Speedplays. So you are basically just opting for a higher-tension spring with these. Or you could buy LOOK/Shimano pedals and adjust the spring as you see fit with an allen wrench.

    Source: I've owned them all.

  6. #1056
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    Roger. Well I've been thinking about going to Speedplay anyway, so it might be a good opportunity to try 'em out.

    Seems like most guys at my track backup with straps/clips. Seems unnecessary with today's high quality clipless pedals and cleats, but what do most guys do elsewhere at the amateur level?

  7. #1057
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    What about something like this? Just need something to get through this season... if I really like track racing, I can save up and get something slick for next year

    Track Fixie Road Bike Frame with Fork White 50cm | eBay

    Doesn't LOOK like great clearance with the BB, though. Most of the track frames I've been looking at look a lot higher in relation to the fork ends

  8. #1058
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The B View Post
    Roger. Well I've been thinking about going to Speedplay anyway, so it might be a good opportunity to try 'em out.

    Seems like most guys at my track backup with straps/clips. Seems unnecessary with today's high quality clipless pedals and cleats, but what do most guys do elsewhere at the amateur level?
    Quote Originally Posted by The B View Post
    What about something like this? Just need something to get through this season... if I really like track racing, I can save up and get something slick for next year

    Track Fixie Road Bike Frame with Fork White 50cm | eBay

    Doesn't LOOK like great clearance with the BB, though. Most of the track frames I've been looking at look a lot higher in relation to the fork ends
    Don't over-think this. Use normal pedals that you see everyone else using. Shimano R540s are like $35 and are easy to find locally. Speedplay Track Zeros are $200.

    If you are on a budget, it is most cost effective to buy a complete bike and buy $35 pedals.

  9. #1059
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    looks like my track is offering upgrade points for chariot races, keirins, and belgian win n out. i'm assuming this is for the struggling group of "sprinters" who aren't doing so well in the omnium. i thought these races were just for fun and now they are giving out points for winning this omnium. what's next flying 200s, kiddie kilo, hellyer crawl?!

    i was able to get my 5-3 last year riding 4-5 hours a week so it wasn't that hard. it was my first year riding and racing. i'm overweight and have zero talent. i'm a few points away from my 2. still over weight but riding 8-10 hours now....

    if you can't win a 4/5 or 3/4 omnium you might want to look into a new hobby.

    maybe i'm just being a grumpy old fart.

    fried chicken and waffles.

  10. #1060
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Impreza with the gloves right across Jaytron's face! Haha.

  11. #1061
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Impreza with the gloves right across Jaytron's face! Haha.


    I thought we were bros, Al!

    Anyways, you clearly have talent, no matter how much you deny it
    PedalRoom

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  12. #1062
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post


    I thought we were bros, Al!

    Anyways, you clearly have talent, no matter how much you deny it
    we are but I don't think upgrade points should be given out like that. not only do you need the fitness but most importantly the pack riding skills. just to be an overall good bike racer. I'm definitely doing alright due to my tactics rather than my fitness because I don't have any.


    look at our 1/2 omnium riders. they won the omnium and sprint event last friday against guys only doing the sprint. they won't race districts because they only do the sprints for fun. they are our fastest sprinters even compared to hellyer's sprint specialists. I'm just saying take a look at your goals and think them out seriously.


    your team is fast no doubt but y'all need to learn how to ride mass start events. I don't know if you've noticed but your team doesn't have the best track record for riding safely. many are involved in close calls and crashes. i would take that to heart. I would never want to be known or associated with dangerous riding.


    it's time to htfu and win some real races. none of this chariot race upgrade points nonsense. you should be able to crush a 15 lap scratch and a 8 lap win n out e4 race. 1/2/3 races might be difficult but that's why you take advantage when they combine e3/4 field. I'm honestly surprised this flyed with john simmons I'm sure there was a lot of pressure for him to say yes. I saw mansker place 3rd in a 60 lap points race at encino... if you want to get to that level put in some work. don't be scared...


    getting your cat 2 winning chariot races against nobody's is a joke. make sure to mark your cat 2 license with an asterisk.


    just sayin...
    fried chicken and waffles.

  13. #1063
    Senior Member Kayce's Avatar
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    The old way is not necessarily the right way. I agree that the lower cat upgrades 5to4, But in an area and time of specializing, it is silly to make a sprinter ride a bunch of scratch races that will harm his nathional goals to get his upgrade.

    Other point

    The Northbrook sprint omnium has a good way of doing sprint events in a way to get good upgrade points. In addition to a sprint tournement there is usually a short scratch race or a win and out. Scratches are scratches, but a little wilder on short ones, and win and outs often take some of the best riding and skill to do well in. Keirins are the same way, it takes a lot of bike handling to perform in one as well.
    Last edited by Kayce; 06-17-14 at 08:51 AM.
    If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

  14. #1064
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayce View Post
    The old way is not necessarily the right way. I agree that the lower cat upgrades 5to4, But in an area and time of specializing, it is silly to make a sprinter ride a bunch of scratch races that will harm his nathional goals to get his upgrade.

    Other point

    The Northbrook sprint omnium has a good way of doing sprint events in a way to get good upgrade points. In addition to a sprint tournement there is usually a short scratch race or a win and out. Scratches are scratches, but a little wilder on short ones, and win and outs often take some of the best riding and skill to do well in. Keirins are the same way, it takes a lot of bike handling to perform in one as well.

    i can agree with that but even if you do specialize in sprint events you should be able to do well in a 10 lap scratch, 30 lap points, and 7 lap win n out. this has been the format for the 3/4 and 4/5 races. I'm sure any national sprinter can crush that.

    with all talk this about sprinting I might have to change up my plans for next year. lift and ride will be the new motto.
    fried chicken and waffles.

  15. #1065
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    You guys need to ditch the whole categories for track. Yes you need should separate the fast/experienced people from the slow/new people, but you don't need USAC involved to do that for you.

    Have an A and B race, Jr race, Masters, etc based on who shows up. Why apply a national level system to local racing.

  16. #1066
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    I don't know why the shorter races/different format should be considered any less legitimate than the traditional format. It's just different, right? And I'm sure those same enduros who are kicking sprinter ass are welcome to show up.

  17. #1067
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    This conversation is pretty interesting. My gut impulse is along the lines of "sack up and win a cat 3 omnium if you want to be an elite-level sprinter" but that's fairly uncritical... it's true that the upgrade system is geared toward enduros and ignores track cycling; and, in a lot of places, it seems like omniums are also weighted toward enduro events.

    But how many deserving people does this really bar from nat'l level races? I'd guess very few.

    Also, topic for conversation: Are scratch races really endurance events? I think not. They're not sprint events, either, but to me they're clearly sprinter-vs-enduro events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    And I'm sure those same enduros who are kicking sprinter ass are welcome to show up.
    It happens. I had a good time at Northbrook last week - W&O, 8-up keirins, and 1.2km scratch.
    the hipster myth.

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  18. #1068
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    ...

    Also, topic for conversation: Are scratch races really endurance events? I think not. They're not sprint events, either, but to me they're clearly sprinter-vs-enduro events.
    ...
    Have you really not done an elite level 10 mile scratch race? Not sprint. Nope. I saw one of the scratch races at Alpenrose (slow track, mind you) average 29.3mph for the entire race. A couple of the elite sprinters entered just to stretch their legs between sprint events; the race was giving dollars per lap prizes; sprinters went off the front for something like 10 laps, earned their lunch money, then dropped out once they were caught.

    A short scratch race? Maybe. But anything over 10 laps a group of elite mass start racers will drop the prototypical elite sprinter like a stone. It's not like it's a parade to the finish... more like a series of constant attacks from people trying to gain laps.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  19. #1069
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    I have, in fact I've podiumed more than one that have come in under 21 minutes.
    I'm thinking of races longer than warmup races and shorter than 10-mi scratches; the scratch final at the Indy NTC race was 6km. Even at speeds averaging around 30mph, in a field bigger than 16 or so riders there's plenty of space for a sprinter to hang out in shelter with his fingers in his nose.

    I'm not saying it's a sprint race, I'm just saying that the point of those races is for enduros to try to break sprinters, and for sprinters to try to keep things together. And that sometimes, they do.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  20. #1070
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    Taking the macro view, the US is not competitive in intl track competition basically at all except for the anomaly of Sarah Hammer. I think Jaytron's coach is basically of the opinion tha this is not a good system and might stand a re-think. I tend to agree. Now I know there's all kinds of reasons for the lack of intl success, but offering a wider range of racing for riders of different dispositions and focus probably couldn't hurt. Maybe worth a try? I'm not saying people shouldn't do mass start. I agree that it's essential for learning bike handling and pack riding skill and these do come in handy even in sprint events. But maybe after you get the cat 3 upgrade it would be possible to "specialize" a little?

  21. #1071
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Taking the macro view, the US is not competitive in intl track competition basically at all except for the anomaly of Sarah Hammer. I think Jaytron's coach is basically of the opinion tha this is not a good system and might stand a re-think. I tend to agree. Now I know there's all kinds of reasons for the lack of intl success, but offering a wider range of racing for riders of different dispositions and focus probably couldn't hurt. Maybe worth a try? I'm not saying people shouldn't do mass start. I agree that it's essential for learning bike handling and pack riding skill and these do come in handy even in sprint events. But maybe after you get the cat 3 upgrade it would be possible to "specialize" a little?
    I'd argue the USA being uncompetitive in track is more an issue of access. There are something like ten Velodromes in the Netherlands, and 25ish in the USA. The Netherlands is the size of what, new Jersey? The whole country is less than an hour drive from a track. I have to go five hours to get to the closest one other than cleveland.

    Eta I have no opinion on whether the system should be changed. I just think there are bigger issues preventing international success.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  22. #1072
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    Agreed, there's a lot of problems, lack of tracks being a primary one. My pet theory is that if we could somehow bridge BMX to track like the Brits have we'd see a lot more juniors and sprinters as well.

  23. #1073
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Agreed, there's a lot of problems, lack of tracks being a primary one. My pet theory is that if we could somehow bridge BMX to track like the Brits have we'd see a lot more juniors and sprinters as well.
    The only problem with that is we run into the same problem with BMX with track. There's not much of a scene. Atleast not around my area.

  24. #1074
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agm2 View Post
    The only problem with that is we run into the same problem with BMX with track. There's not much of a scene. Atleast not around my area.
    yerp, and then you get into big ol' thorny question of, how do you create a scene? no - how do you create the environment that creates scenes? and that is answered with vague handwavey things like culture and transportation and a lot of other things that happen on the scale of decades and in terms of public policy, not little old institutions that govern sports that are overshadowed by the rampant profiteering ******brigades of corporate ball sports.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  25. #1075
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    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    yerp, and then you get into big ol' thorny question of, how do you create a scene? no - how do you create the environment that creates scenes? and that is answered with vague handwavey things like culture and transportation and a lot of other things that happen on the scale of decades and in terms of public policy, not little old institutions that govern sports that are overshadowed by the rampant profiteering ******brigades of corporate ball sports.
    I think you hit the nail on the head. You have to create the environment to build a scene, but you don't have much control outside of your velodrome. If you want to thrive you have to have a welcoming environment, and it has to be open. If you can't ride it must of the week, then it's not going to get new people.

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