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-   -   Ask your small, random, track-related questions here (http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/924726-ask-your-small-random-track-related-questions-here.html)

Baby Puke 12-16-13 09:35 AM

Usually the only time I break my chain is when I'm replacing it. What kind of master link is this? The NJS screw type are a bit cranky if you constantly open them, the tiny threads on the nut are easy to strip, then the chain is done.

ETN612 12-16-13 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 16333988)
Usually the only time I break my chain is when I'm replacing it. What kind of master link is this? The NJS screw type are a bit cranky if you constantly open them, the tiny threads on the nut are easy to strip, then the chain is done.

The masterlinks that come with KMC K710SL chains, they are the type that can be opened with the Park Tool masterlink pliers (one piece has one of the plates and one of the pins, and the other piece has the opposite plate and pin). Not technically a track chain (I think they're technically BMX chains?) but it's a really beefy chain and i've heard of other trackies using these chains.

Jaytron 12-16-13 10:38 AM

I use a 710SL, but never have to remove my chain.

Quinn8it 12-16-13 11:05 AM

Changing chains at the track is just a clumbsy solution that is going to put off the inevitable- if you want ride at the track you are going to have to change cogs. You need to learn how to do it fast... Just figure it out.

ETN612 12-16-13 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16334257)
Changing chains at the track is just a clumbsy solution that is going to put off the inevitable- if you want ride at the track you are going to have to change cogs. You need to learn how to do it fast... Just figure it out.

Hahaha I know how do it just fine, the process just irks me way more than it should. I suppose you're right, it did seem kind of clumsy at first but the more I think about it the more stupid it sounds. I decided that i'm probably just going to get an All-City standard fixed/fixed rear hub to replace my Velocity rear hub so that it's not even an issue and can have street and race gears just by flipping my wheel. Since it's probably a bit better hub than my current one anyway that seems like the best plan.

Jaytron 12-16-13 01:02 PM

fixed/free is fine, most people don't use lockrings so no need for the reverse threaded portion on both sides.

Brian Ratliff 12-16-13 01:08 PM

Also, if you get a 14 tooth cog on the other side of your flip hub, you can use 46/15 for warmup and 46/14 for racing since it is equivalent to a 49/15. That way you don't have to change cogs or chainrings at all. Just undo the hub, flip it over, and you are ready for racing.

Quinn8it 12-16-13 03:09 PM

I wouldn't spend a dime on new wheels or pretty much any gear until you've raced a season...

More skills-less bills

carleton 12-16-13 03:45 PM

ETN612, you are totally over-thinking this.

- There is no perfect commuter/race bike setup. This is why people have separate street/race bikes. Until you get separate bikes, you will have to make changes when you get to and leave the track. Deal with it or buy a bike for use only on the track...then a car to carry it to the track :D
- You will have to learn to change your cogs...period. It will become second nature in no time. Just be sure to buy good shop-quality tools, not cheap tools that won't last long or will be frustrating to use. I have shop-quality tools that I've been using since 2009.
- You should not enter the sport with all kinds of work-arounds. Just use the standard gears like everyone else: 48/16 warmup and 48/15 beginner racing and go up from there.
- Don't worry about trying to get the wheel close to the downtube. It's simply not a factor. People do this to make bikes look good for bike shows or photo shoots, but in track racing, it is totally impractical being that each gear change will change where the wheel is placed in the track ends.
- Don't worry about crashing. Riding the track is safer than riding the streets. 90% of "crashes" are people sliding off the track, laughing, then going on about their workout.

brawlo 12-16-13 04:59 PM

So how much does racing a new track affect your speeds/times? I race each week on an almost circular and low banked 397m asphalt track. I've also raced on 250m boards.

Last weekend I went to a track meet a couple of hours away that was a banked 270m concrete. It was fairly rough, especially if you were going high to get around the pack on the last bend at speed. I had a fairly crappy leadup to the event with 3 successive late nights due to Christmas get togethers which would have affected my performance a bit, but I wouldn't have thought so much. I was placed in a grade against people I would normally easily beat and people I can beat were in a grade above, but I really struggled and ended up with really lacklustre efforts. Very disappointed in myself.

ETN612 12-16-13 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaytron (Post 16334641)
fixed/free is fine, most people don't use lockrings so no need for the reverse threaded portion on both sides.

Oh really? I mean I was considering getting a new rear hub anyway but if fixed/free is fine, then I can hold off for the time being. Wasn't aware of the whole "most people don't use lockrings" thing, I guess since you aren't really having to apply much reverse pressure on the cranks at all during a race then it wouldn't really matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff (Post 16334661)
Also, if you get a 14 tooth cog on the other side of your flip hub, you can use 46/15 for warmup and 46/14 for racing since it is equivalent to a 49/15. That way you don't have to change cogs or chainrings at all. Just undo the hub, flip it over, and you are ready for racing.

Sweet, thanks for the heads up! Cogs are definitely cheaper than chainrings, haha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16334989)
ETN612, you are totally over-thinking this.

- There is no perfect commuter/race bike setup. This is why people have separate street/race bikes. Until you get separate bikes, you will have to make changes when you get to and leave the track. Deal with it or buy a bike for use only on the track...then a car to carry it to the track :D
- You will have to learn to change your cogs...period. It will become second nature in no time. Just be sure to buy good shop-quality tools, not cheap tools that won't last long or will be frustrating to use. I have shop-quality tools that I've been using since 2009.
- You should not enter the sport with all kinds of work-arounds. Just use the standard gears like everyone else: 48/16 warmup and 48/15 beginner racing and go up from there.
- Don't worry about trying to get the wheel close to the downtube. It's simply not a factor. People do this to make bikes look good for bike shows or photo shoots, but in track racing, it is totally impractical being that each gear change will change where the wheel is placed in the track ends.
- Don't worry about crashing. Riding the track is safer than riding the streets. 90% of "crashes" are people sliding off the track, laughing, then going on about their workout.

I already have the car covered! :thumb: But if I race a couple seasons and end up getting really really into it, then I probably will just buy a dedicated race bike. And i'm perfectly capable of changing cogs, the process itself annoys me but the mechanical competence is there. Come to think of it, I think it's really the lockring that I hate putting on because I have a tiny-ass lockring wrench with no grip that makes it hard to get the lockring on all the way flush to the cog, and i've just learned that that's mostly a street-riding concern and not a track concern anyway... and yeah, I try to buy all Park Tool products for tools when I can afford it. And that's good to hear, I think I just thought it was a more common occurrence than it is because the first of the few races I made it to to watch before the end of this season had a pretty gnarly looking wreck during a Madison. Just one dude involved but it looked like he went down pretty hard.

Thanks for fielding all my newb questions guys!

carleton 12-16-13 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brawlo (Post 16335145)
So how much does racing a new track affect your speeds/times? I race each week on an almost circular and low banked 397m asphalt track. I've also raced on 250m boards.

Last weekend I went to a track meet a couple of hours away that was a banked 270m concrete. It was fairly rough, especially if you were going high to get around the pack on the last bend at speed. I had a fairly crappy leadup to the event with 3 successive late nights due to Christmas get togethers which would have affected my performance a bit, but I wouldn't have thought so much. I was placed in a grade against people I would normally easily beat and people I can beat were in a grade above, but I really struggled and ended up with really lacklustre efforts. Very disappointed in myself.

Don't worry, man. Each track has its own curve and its own "personality". You don't know a track until you get to know that track.

You were at a disadvantage coming from a round track with little banking and going to an oval track with LOTS of banking...especially in mass start racing. You likely didn't know when and where to push the pedals and when/where to relax or how and when to pass. This isn't that big of an issue when you are doing time trials on the black line.

So, the solution is to simply ride the curvier tracks more to learn how to save your energy. Same goes for sprinters in the flying 200M. Guys who learn to do a great Flying 200M on a round-ish track like Trexlertown or Colorado Springs have to re-learn how to do an energy efficient windup on a standard 250 like Los Angeles or Rock Hill. Then there is Atlanta which has a punch in the nuts in the middle of turns 3/4 and Portland which somehow displaces space-time and adds 0.5" to anyone's time.

Basically, each track is different. Talk to the locals for tips and ride as much as you can.

Locals will always have the Home Field Advantage :D

carleton 12-16-13 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETN612 (Post 16335217)
I already have the car covered! :thumb: But if I race a couple seasons and end up getting really really into it, then I probably will just buy a dedicated race bike. And i'm perfectly capable of changing cogs, the process itself annoys me but the mechanical competence is there. Come to think of it, I think it's really the lockring that I hate putting on because I have a tiny-ass lockring wrench with no grip that makes it hard to get the lockring on all the way flush to the cog, and i've just learned that that's mostly a street-riding concern and not a track concern anyway... and yeah, I try to buy all Park Tool products for tools when I can afford it. And that's good to hear, I think I just thought it was a more common occurrence than it is because the first of the few races I made it to to watch before the end of this season had a pretty gnarly looking wreck during a Madison. Just one dude involved but it looked like he went down pretty hard.

Bicycle racing (of any style: MTB, Road, Track, Time Trials, BMX) is not cheap. I'm not saying that to discourage you. I want you to prepare for it and make good equipment choices that will last a long time. Once you get a solid kit of tools, you will not have to buy them again. The same goes for equipment. I know guys who have been racing the same equipment for years...decades sometimes. But, you have to buy quality (notice that I didn't say "most expensive").

Working on a bike with inferior or "travel" tools is friggin' frustrating. There is no need to use such tools when you are never more than a few yards from your backpack/tool bag.

Park is good. So are Hozan, Pedro, Craftsman, and quite a few others. Here is an excellent thread on the subject. http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ew-track-racer That is a GREAT thread about tools.

You have a few months to gather your tools before the summer. Don't be the guy always borrowing stuff at the track. As a good friend (and professional furniture maker) once told me, "If you need to borrow something once, that's OK. If you need to borrow it twice, you need to buy your own."

Track racing has FAR fewer crashes (minor or major) per event than road, mtb, bmx, cx, etc... I think that road time trials is the only discipline that has less. You want to see drama, go watch a CAT5 crit. I recall one year at DLV where I raced at least twice every week, I can't recall 1 crash the entire 6 month season.

JMR 12-16-13 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16334257)
Changing chains at the track is just a clumbsy solution that is going to put off the inevitable- if you want ride at the track you are going to have to change cogs. You need to learn how to do it fast... Just figure it out.

Some pseudo track/fixie bikes have REALLY short dropouts that means you can only run a couple of chainring/cog combos with one chain length... I think he might have really short dropouts.

JMR

ETN612 12-17-13 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMR (Post 16335745)
Some pseudo track/fixie bikes have REALLY short dropouts that means you can only run a couple of chainring/cog combos with one chain length... I think he might have really short dropouts.

JMR

Nah, I have plenty of room in my track ends, that's definitely not the issue, I was just being overly concerned about things I didn't need to be concerned about.

ETN612 12-17-13 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16335260)
Bicycle racing (of any style: MTB, Road, Track, Time Trials, BMX) is not cheap. I'm not saying that to discourage you. I want you to prepare for it and make good equipment choices that will last a long time. Once you get a solid kit of tools, you will not have to buy them again. The same goes for equipment. I know guys who have been racing the same equipment for years...decades sometimes. But, you have to buy quality (notice that I didn't say "most expensive").

Working on a bike with inferior or "travel" tools is friggin' frustrating. There is no need to use such tools when you are never more than a few yards from your backpack/tool bag.

Park is good. So are Hozan, Pedro, Craftsman, and quite a few others. Here is an excellent thread on the subject.http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ew-track-racer That is a GREAT thread about tools.

You have a few months to gather your tools before the summer. Don't be the guy always borrowing stuff at the track. As a good friend (and professional furniture maker) once told me, "If you need to borrow something once, that's OK. If you need to borrow it twice, you need to buy your own."

Track racing has FAR fewer crashes (minor or major) per event than road, mtb, bmx, cx, etc... I think that road time trials is the only discipline that has less. You want to see drama, go watch a CAT5 crit. I recall one year at DLV where I raced at least twice every week, I can't recall 1 crash the entire 6 month season.

Thanks for that thread link, very helpful! And yeah, I definitely don't plan on being that guy. I am glad that it's a few months off so I have time to get all my equipment in order.

JMR 12-17-13 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETN612 (Post 16336083)
Nah, I have plenty of room in my track ends, that's definitely not the issue, I was just being overly concerned about things I didn't need to be concerned about.

Ahh... OK, cool.

I see some guys rock up to track with these bike with TINY short dropouts and the can only run a couple of gears without the chain being too short or too long.

JMR

loverrellik 12-17-13 08:03 AM

I'm gonna chime in with a Newb question on Cog usage on the track. I'm using the Miche cog carrier system on one side of my fixed/fixed hub and am pretty happy with the ease of swapping out cogs on the street. What is your thought on using the Miche carrier system on the Track for racing? Should I keep investing in Miche cogs or should I remove the system and go with a non-carrier setup?

Thanks!

queerpunk 12-17-13 08:23 AM

^I use the Miche system, and I like it. I told a teammate, "There's one less step to changing a cog!" and he replied, "But if you use normal cogs and no lockring, then it's the same number of steps."

Well, whatever. I like it! I have 14t through 17t cogs, a couple of carriers, and it works well for me.

bmontgomery87 12-17-13 08:53 AM

Along the lines of loverrelik's question, if I have a flip flop hub, and remove the freewheel. Do I have to do anything special after that, or can I just throw a fixed cog and lockring on that other side and now have two combinations?

Brian Ratliff 12-17-13 08:54 AM

I think the only problem with these cog systems such as the miche is simply that it locks you into one brand cog. As long as it doesn't develop play in the spline interface, I can't see anything wrong with them. In theory, the threaded interface should be stiffer, but I can't see how it would matter in practice unless the interface wears and develops play.

Brian Ratliff 12-17-13 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 (Post 16336624)
Along the lines of loverrelik's question, if I have a flip flop hub, and remove the freewheel. Do I have to do anything special after that, or can I just throw a fixed cog and lockring on that other side and now have two combinations?

Correct. I would put the smaller cog on the side without a locking since it will be less likely to loosen under back pressure. Personally, I don't think a locking matters until you start getting over 16 teeth.

bmontgomery87 12-17-13 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff (Post 16336634)
Correct. I would put the smaller cog on the side without a locking since it will be less likely to loosen under back pressure. Personally, I don't think a locking matters until you start getting over 16 teeth.

I can throw a lockring on both sides just in case though, correct?

Thanks for the quick reply, BTW.

queerpunk 12-17-13 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff (Post 16336627)
I think the only problem with these cog systems such as the miche is simply that it locks you into one brand cog. As long as it doesn't develop play in the spline interface, I can't see anything wrong with them. In theory, the threaded interface should be stiffer, but I can't see how it would matter in practice unless the interface wears and develops play.

The interface doesn't develop play; or rather, there's a hair of play built in to it but the lockring exerts enough lateral pressure on both the cog and carrier that they can't and don't move relative to each other. I've been racing for four or five years on the same carrier and cogset. No play.

Brian Ratliff 12-17-13 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 (Post 16336640)
I can throw a lockring on both sides just in case though, correct?

Thanks for the quick reply, BTW.

Well, maybe. You need reverse threads to use a proper lockring. You mentioned a freewheel... Usually the side with a freewheel doesn't have lockring threads, but your hub might be different.


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