Ask your small, random, track-related questions here
#176
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https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/roa...ft190000000000
Last edited by Lew.; 12-22-13 at 12:11 PM. Reason: Link
#177
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Miche also made the Pistard wheelset in clincher (I had a set on my first track bike). I just searched Wiggle because I knew they stocked them, not anymore it seems...
https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/roa...ft190000000000
https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/roa...ft190000000000
#178
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Either way, I posted the link as evidence they exist. If I remember right, Ribble are out of stock at the minute anyway...
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I've seen a number of spun cogs, and one spun Miche carrier. If you do a lot of on/off and your hub isn't robust the odds of ending up with buggered threads is pretty good (the Miche carrier spun on an old, well used Zipp disc ridden by a sprinter).
40+ years of being a mechanic makes me leery of high stress areas that are constantly being taken apart and put together.
Don't know why they didn't go to a coarser thread on these things; dirt track motorcycles have a similar set up with a knock off nut and the TPI count is really low...dirty environment and no issues.
Last edited by Racer Ex; 12-22-13 at 06:16 PM.
#180
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That guide isn't set in stone, but it's a good guide.
#181
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yeah, thanks for that other source. I have to see how much is the shipping, if i have to spend whatever I save on the wheels then it is not worth it.
My only concern is the radial laced front wheel. I've always been wary about it in general (Nothing like a classically laced wheel in terms of strength). Even more so since I'm a heavier rider (200 lbs). That being said I do like the looks of them.
does anyone know if 24 spokes radially laced is sufficient for my weight?
I once worked in manufacturing on an internship, higher TPI was always used, especially in a situation where you had to torque something down (diaphragm compressors). You have more control with a fewer TPI. One revolution of the nut (or in this case, cog) gives you a smaller lateral movement. Also with more teeth in the thread the torque is spread out over them all and you have more teeth that "bite"
^just my 2 cents. from an engineering standpoint.
one thing I don't like is that there are different metals in contact. for example steel cogs on aluminum hubs. The cog is harder than the hub so there is potential to strip the threads or cross thread. (either way I was taught to apply anti-seize when two different metals are in contact, because they cant spur a corrosion seizing them together.
#182
Senior Member
...
My only concern is the radial laced front wheel. I've always been wary about it in general (Nothing like a classically laced wheel in terms of strength). Even more so since I'm a heavier rider (200 lbs). That being said I do like the looks of them.
does anyone know if 24 spokes radially laced is sufficient for my weight?
...
My only concern is the radial laced front wheel. I've always been wary about it in general (Nothing like a classically laced wheel in terms of strength). Even more so since I'm a heavier rider (200 lbs). That being said I do like the looks of them.
does anyone know if 24 spokes radially laced is sufficient for my weight?
...
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#183
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#184
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Understand the theory of thread pitch. And in some applications fine thread is just fine.
The problem with an engineering theory is that it has to go out into the real world. Any greater "bite" on a finer TPI goes away badly if those threads are compromised in any way through either dirt, cross threading (more likely on fine TPI in a rushed situation or with less adept mechanics) or corrosion (anti seize isn't 100% protective, and is a nice dirt attractant, but it's probably better than bare threads).
You look at the vast majority of race related wheel or drive train "quick change" items (motorcycles, Indy cars, Sprint cars, Etc) and you'll see a lot of low TPI stuff for that reason. I've yet to see anyone use a torque wrench on a cog or lock ring
Nice shot of an early Indy car quick change hub:
The rotary wing combat aircraft I worked on used primarily fine pitch threads, I assume on the engineering premise you noted because virtually every fitting was torqued. We had big trays of replacement nuts and bolts for things that were on and off on a regular basis (pre-flight and low period inspection), even with well trained mechanics, torque wrenches and a relatively clean flight line (unless we were out in the field) we had a lot of stripped stuff.
Noteworthy that the race hub above uses the lugs to take up the torque load and the knock off "just" takes side load. Puzzling that we don't have splined hubs by now instead of the half step of screw on splined carriers. How long has road had splined freehubs instead of screw on freewheels? We can have a bunch of different BB standards hitting track bikes yet have zero progress here.
The problem with an engineering theory is that it has to go out into the real world. Any greater "bite" on a finer TPI goes away badly if those threads are compromised in any way through either dirt, cross threading (more likely on fine TPI in a rushed situation or with less adept mechanics) or corrosion (anti seize isn't 100% protective, and is a nice dirt attractant, but it's probably better than bare threads).
You look at the vast majority of race related wheel or drive train "quick change" items (motorcycles, Indy cars, Sprint cars, Etc) and you'll see a lot of low TPI stuff for that reason. I've yet to see anyone use a torque wrench on a cog or lock ring
Nice shot of an early Indy car quick change hub:
The rotary wing combat aircraft I worked on used primarily fine pitch threads, I assume on the engineering premise you noted because virtually every fitting was torqued. We had big trays of replacement nuts and bolts for things that were on and off on a regular basis (pre-flight and low period inspection), even with well trained mechanics, torque wrenches and a relatively clean flight line (unless we were out in the field) we had a lot of stripped stuff.
Noteworthy that the race hub above uses the lugs to take up the torque load and the knock off "just" takes side load. Puzzling that we don't have splined hubs by now instead of the half step of screw on splined carriers. How long has road had splined freehubs instead of screw on freewheels? We can have a bunch of different BB standards hitting track bikes yet have zero progress here.
#185
Senior Member
Ribble do have free shipping over a certain amount to Australia (bought from them quite a few times - also have nicely prices Dura ace cogs ). Even if you don't get charged shipping, you may get slugged duty on the goods when they land in the States. Not sure of your import laws, currently in Australia we can get items $1000 and under duty free. Helps that our dollar is strong at the moment...
#186
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dalai, the set i'm currently looking at isn't in stock but once it is i imagine that i'll order it from there.
Racer ex, it's nice to have a different perspective on things so thanks for that.
Changing cogs/lockrings is like shaving, do it in a rush and you'll mess up and cut yourself.
Racer ex, it's nice to have a different perspective on things so thanks for that.
Changing cogs/lockrings is like shaving, do it in a rush and you'll mess up and cut yourself.
#187
Senior Member
RE: cog threads...
The way I see it, a threaded system is the only way to achieve a zero backlash interface while ensuring the two parts are reasonably easy to disassemble. More importantly is you don't have to be all that accurate with your thread cutting to achieve that zero backlash interface. The knock against splined systems is they all inherently have backlash built into their design. With a road freewheel, backlash is acceptable since torque is applied to the hub in only one direction. To make a guaranteed low backlash spline means being really accurate with the machining, which means more expense. Miche cuts corners a little with the machined tooth profile they use. White Industries cogs are simply more expensive than their threaded cousins of equivilent (or better) quality.
The Miche and White Industries both have proprietary splined cog systems; White Industries skip the carrier and have a proprietary hub to which these cogs mount. Easton track wheels use a nonproprietary splined system (Shimano cassette standard) and no carrier. Truth be told, having a true zero backlash system is probably overrated, but track racers tend to be picky about these things.
On the point about the fine pitch, I think it's a combination of tradition dating back to steel hubs, standards, and concern about back pressure unscrewing the cog. Fine thread pitch means the cog will take more force to loosen and once loosened, will put less stress on the lockring under back pressure.
The way I see it, a threaded system is the only way to achieve a zero backlash interface while ensuring the two parts are reasonably easy to disassemble. More importantly is you don't have to be all that accurate with your thread cutting to achieve that zero backlash interface. The knock against splined systems is they all inherently have backlash built into their design. With a road freewheel, backlash is acceptable since torque is applied to the hub in only one direction. To make a guaranteed low backlash spline means being really accurate with the machining, which means more expense. Miche cuts corners a little with the machined tooth profile they use. White Industries cogs are simply more expensive than their threaded cousins of equivilent (or better) quality.
The Miche and White Industries both have proprietary splined cog systems; White Industries skip the carrier and have a proprietary hub to which these cogs mount. Easton track wheels use a nonproprietary splined system (Shimano cassette standard) and no carrier. Truth be told, having a true zero backlash system is probably overrated, but track racers tend to be picky about these things.
On the point about the fine pitch, I think it's a combination of tradition dating back to steel hubs, standards, and concern about back pressure unscrewing the cog. Fine thread pitch means the cog will take more force to loosen and once loosened, will put less stress on the lockring under back pressure.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 12-23-13 at 09:02 AM.
#188
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RE: cog threads...
The way I see it, a threaded system is the only way to achieve a zero backlash interface while ensuring the two parts are reasonably easy to disassemble...Truth be told, having a true zero backlash system is probably overrated, but track racers tend to be picky about these things.
The way I see it, a threaded system is the only way to achieve a zero backlash interface while ensuring the two parts are reasonably easy to disassemble...Truth be told, having a true zero backlash system is probably overrated, but track racers tend to be picky about these things.
Quick change Indy car hub above compared to a track bicycle...700HP + 4g's of braking force and 1800 lbs stop/starting feeding through a giant contact patch and multiple G's of side load on top of everything else changed out in 10 seconds (plus a hub temp that varies several hundred degrees) ...vs 1.5 HP, 260 lbs if it's a typical chubby sprinter and probably .03 G's of stopping force and changed out in 5-7 minutes.
Yep, those concerns about backlash might be overrated
But if that was keeping people up at night (and it shouldn't be given the above and that the other spline systems seem to work just fine with potential backlash) it would be quite easy to machine a slight taper at the base of whatever spline system you developed which would create a zero backlash interface. Same premise as a one bolt crank only much less aggressive taper.
Badda bing, badda boom.
Waste of CNC time though.
#189
Senior Member
Having watched a few hundred threaded cog changes I'd say "reasonably easy" is relative. Especially at the Superdrome in the summer when all those nice bits that were assembled in air conditioned shops expand.
Quick change Indy car hub above compared to a track bicycle...700HP + 4g's of braking force and 1800 lbs stop/starting feeding through a giant contact patch and multiple G's of side load on top of everything else changed out in 10 seconds (plus a hub temp that varies several hundred degrees) ...vs 1.5 HP, 260 lbs if it's a typical chubby sprinter and probably .03 G's of stopping force and changed out in 5-7 minutes.
Yep, those concerns about backlash might be overrated
But if that was keeping people up at night (and it shouldn't be given the above and that the other spline systems seem to work just fine with potential backlash) it would be quite easy to machine a slight taper at the base of whatever spline system you developed which would create a zero backlash interface. Same premise as a one bolt crank only much less aggressive taper.
Badda bing, badda boom.
Waste of CNC time though.
Quick change Indy car hub above compared to a track bicycle...700HP + 4g's of braking force and 1800 lbs stop/starting feeding through a giant contact patch and multiple G's of side load on top of everything else changed out in 10 seconds (plus a hub temp that varies several hundred degrees) ...vs 1.5 HP, 260 lbs if it's a typical chubby sprinter and probably .03 G's of stopping force and changed out in 5-7 minutes.
Yep, those concerns about backlash might be overrated
But if that was keeping people up at night (and it shouldn't be given the above and that the other spline systems seem to work just fine with potential backlash) it would be quite easy to machine a slight taper at the base of whatever spline system you developed which would create a zero backlash interface. Same premise as a one bolt crank only much less aggressive taper.
Badda bing, badda boom.
Waste of CNC time though.
__________________
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#190
Senior Member
...
Yep, those concerns about backlash might be overrated
But if that was keeping people up at night (and it shouldn't be given the above and that the other spline systems seem to work just fine with potential backlash) it would be quite easy to machine a slight taper at the base of whatever spline system you developed which would create a zero backlash interface. Same premise as a one bolt crank only much less aggressive taper.
...
Yep, those concerns about backlash might be overrated
But if that was keeping people up at night (and it shouldn't be given the above and that the other spline systems seem to work just fine with potential backlash) it would be quite easy to machine a slight taper at the base of whatever spline system you developed which would create a zero backlash interface. Same premise as a one bolt crank only much less aggressive taper.
...
On an off note, I've been surprised the steps people go through to dress up their cogs. Not only tumbling and/or polishing, but sourcing anti-friction coatings that will last only 5-6 races, etc.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#191
Senior Member
It's not enough to have a better product (usually). One needs a path to transition from the current state of the art to the new solution. For instance, Mavic track disc users would scream bloody murder if Mavic adopted the WI standard exclusively, and if they tried to sell the WI standard alongside the threaded standard, nobody would buy the WI equipped disc. Now, if WI modified their spline to work with a carrier and offered a 13 tooth cog (useful for sprinting), and then went out and got Shimano to offer cogs with their spline, then it might develop into a standard. But I'm not sure if you can get a splined interface on a 13 tooth cog and carrier (not much room between the teeth and the carrier - Miche bottoms out at 14 tooth).
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 12-23-13 at 01:08 PM.
#192
Senior Member
...Now, if WI modified their spline to work with a carrier and offered a 13 tooth cog (useful for sprinting), and then went out and got Shimano to offer cogs with their spline, then it might develop into a standard. But I'm not sure if you can get a splined interface on a 13 tooth cog and carrier (not much room between the teeth and the carrier - Miche bottoms out at 14 tooth).
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Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
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#193
Senior Member
I have four track wheelsets, two clincher and two tubular including a set of race wheels. Three of those have Miche hubs; the race wheelset has Phil Wood. The normal solution for the problem of changing cogs is just adding wheelsets!
I do a lot of training on the road, since track time is at a premium. In any case, having to buy a $200 rear hub for each wheelset would just about double the cost of the wheelset. And since WI doesn't have a fixed-fixed option, I'd actually be changing cogs much more frequently than my present system. At the track, I'll have two wheelsets with three or four cog options which with chainrings cover the entire span of gear ranges from warmup to overgear. On the road, I'll have two cog options, a warmup gear and an effort gear.
I really only change cogs very rarely and mostly for the road training to take into account varied terrain.
Probably right.
I do a lot of training on the road, since track time is at a premium. In any case, having to buy a $200 rear hub for each wheelset would just about double the cost of the wheelset. And since WI doesn't have a fixed-fixed option, I'd actually be changing cogs much more frequently than my present system. At the track, I'll have two wheelsets with three or four cog options which with chainrings cover the entire span of gear ranges from warmup to overgear. On the road, I'll have two cog options, a warmup gear and an effort gear.
I really only change cogs very rarely and mostly for the road training to take into account varied terrain.
I believe the 13 tooth cog is going to preclude most solutions that screw on over the existing threaded design.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#194
Senior Member
I have four track wheelsets, two clincher and two tubular including a set of race wheels. Three of those have Miche hubs; the race wheelset has Phil Wood. The normal solution for the problem of changing cogs is just adding wheelsets!
I do a lot of training on the road, since track time is at a premium. In any case, having to buy a $200 rear hub for each wheelset would just about double the cost of the wheelset. And since WI doesn't have a fixed-fixed option, I'd actually be changing cogs much more frequently than my present system. At the track, I'll have two wheelsets with three or four cog options which with chainrings cover the entire span of gear ranges from warmup to overgear. On the road, I'll have two cog options, a warmup gear and an effort gear.
I really only change cogs very rarely and mostly for the road training to take into account varied terrain.
Probably right.
I do a lot of training on the road, since track time is at a premium. In any case, having to buy a $200 rear hub for each wheelset would just about double the cost of the wheelset. And since WI doesn't have a fixed-fixed option, I'd actually be changing cogs much more frequently than my present system. At the track, I'll have two wheelsets with three or four cog options which with chainrings cover the entire span of gear ranges from warmup to overgear. On the road, I'll have two cog options, a warmup gear and an effort gear.
I really only change cogs very rarely and mostly for the road training to take into account varied terrain.
Probably right.
I see where you're at. But, the point of adopting a splined knockoff design is to ease cog changes and make the requirement of multiple rear wheels redudant. No more chain whips and torque tightened cogs. Just a retaining ring, which would experience zero torque and require only enough tightening to keep from backing off.
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Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
#195
Senior Member
I see where you're at. But, the point of adopting a splined knockoff design is to ease cog changes and make the requirement of multiple rear wheels redudant. No more chain whips and torque tightened cogs. Just a retaining ring, which would experience zero torque and require only enough tightening to keep from backing off.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#196
Senior Member
A positive design spiral of sorts.
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
#197
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Damn discs kill off a splined hub system for most folks. That's why I'm on the Miche adapter.
The 13 cog with a coating is kind of a reach if the papers I've read about friction losses on smaller radius gears with a chain is accurate. Not sure if folks confuse quiet with fast too. I can make a drive train that will be dead silent and suck power like crazy.
You'd figure if the chain line is right the friction from a cog is tiny, essentially the only "slip" you have is the fractional point of engagement and disengagement. Couple of milleseconds? If it's side loaded you're still not talking about a large event.
Big ass gears. Less RPM, less frictional loss.
Interesting discussion.
The 13 cog with a coating is kind of a reach if the papers I've read about friction losses on smaller radius gears with a chain is accurate. Not sure if folks confuse quiet with fast too. I can make a drive train that will be dead silent and suck power like crazy.
You'd figure if the chain line is right the friction from a cog is tiny, essentially the only "slip" you have is the fractional point of engagement and disengagement. Couple of milleseconds? If it's side loaded you're still not talking about a large event.
Big ass gears. Less RPM, less frictional loss.
Interesting discussion.
#199
Senior Member
Damn discs kill off a splined hub system for most folks. That's why I'm on the Miche adapter.
The 13 cog with a coating is kind of a reach if the papers I've read about friction losses on smaller radius gears with a chain is accurate. Not sure if folks confuse quiet with fast too. I can make a drive train that will be dead silent and suck power like crazy.
You'd figure if the chain line is right the friction from a cog is tiny, essentially the only "slip" you have is the fractional point of engagement and disengagement. Couple of milleseconds? If it's side loaded you're still not talking about a large event.
Big ass gears. Less RPM, less frictional loss.
Interesting discussion.
The 13 cog with a coating is kind of a reach if the papers I've read about friction losses on smaller radius gears with a chain is accurate. Not sure if folks confuse quiet with fast too. I can make a drive train that will be dead silent and suck power like crazy.
You'd figure if the chain line is right the friction from a cog is tiny, essentially the only "slip" you have is the fractional point of engagement and disengagement. Couple of milleseconds? If it's side loaded you're still not talking about a large event.
Big ass gears. Less RPM, less frictional loss.
Interesting discussion.
But all this is getting more into the mental aspects of the sport than physics. People want things quiet because they sound more efficient, which puts them in a better state of concentration for the event. It's one of the things I've grown to enjoy about track. Everything's so simple and elegant about the equipment that competition really is stripped down to its basics. The losses in the drivetrain really are very small (unless you put your chain too tight!).
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#200
Senior Member
There's a variety of other drills, but pretty much everything is done at an intensity way harder than your average roadie has ever experienced, for a much shorter time, with a lot longer rest.
For enduro: they road race. More or less.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter