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  1. #426
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    I knew another former moto GP racer turned track racer. He didn't know his own size and liked to bounce into and off people. When called out on his generally careless riding, he'd say, "Aahh, that's nothin'. I used to do that at 100mph on a motorcycle. It's fine." He even said that as somebody was being loaded into an ambulance.

    Probably not a reflection on all former moto GP racers...

    ...right?
    Nah. We generally tried to avoid swapping paint; it would happen from time to time but rarely intentional. He's spot on though about most bike racers being pretty squeamish/freaked out about any contact. Banging fairings and bodies at 100+ re calibrates you.

    As a kid riding BMX'd stingrays we used to do demolition derby stuff where we'd deliberately trying to rub tires and knock folks down. Best course we had for this was a laundramat that we'd sneak into when it was unoccupied. Slick floor, stuff to bounce off of if you got out of shape, and the loop around the dryers was just wide enough to fit two bikes.

    No helmets or protective gear ever. You learn how to crash well.

  2. #427
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    For sure. I'm down with rubbin's racin', but guy was "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead."
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  3. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Yessir, stateside. 250 GP, and Superbike as well. I once followed this guy through the haybales in the chicane at Daytona. Champion at the state level, top ten guy at Nats, and top 20 at the one FIM level race I did. Second tier equipment and poverty level support, but even with a factory ride I was still a second tier talent compared to the guy above. Like cycling, there are folks that are on another level.

    Great seat to watch them in the days before on board cameras though
    Sweet, I probably want your autograph. Was that one FIM race the only Laguna GP that had 500, 250 and 125? What was that, '93?

    I make a bad joke out of riding a TZ125 and a vintage 250 in AHRMA for a few years until I realized I couldn't afford it, but it was just kid stuff compared to what you're talking about. Respect!

  4. #429
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Sweet, I probably want your autograph. Was that one FIM race the only Laguna GP that had 500, 250 and 125? What was that, '93?
    My autograph will net you $1200 on Ebay if I sign your SRM and you throw it in.

    Daytona 80-something. Bunch of the Euro factory teams came over, Eddie was on a factory Kwakersaki, Honda had a couple of dudes Etc. 2 guys in the front two rows spoke english. I think I had to pay some license surcharge.

    138 entries, 80 qualified.

    Blew up during qualifying, coasted across for 41st. which put me in the second wave and 30 seconds down at the start. Me and some nutty Spanish factory guy caught the first wave and commenced to wade through. We were riding pretty desperate, way out of shape most of the time. Lawson and the other two podium guys actually lapped us with two to go...those guys had 15 MPH on the banking and I was doing 150. Hello factory motors vs two year old public equipment.

    Ended up 18th. Finished with an empty gas tank.

    $400 payout.

    I got 5 times that for winning a couple of old fart bicycle races in Windward OK.

    Some of the top ten nationals paid less than I got at Daytona. One of my 4th places paid $250.

    The AMA makes the UCI looks good on the exploitation scale.

    It was fun, I was pretty good. With actual parental support vs. obstacle throwing or had I stumbled on a bucket of money I think I would have been a quite good top 5 guy and won some an occasional national or lucked into something bigger. As it was it kept my nose out of the ubiquitous blow and off the booze for extended periods...I had a "one week" rule about drugs and alkeehaul. Given the road most of my non-racing friends went down that was pretty big.

    I did AHRMA dirt track a couple of decades after I "retired" for two years. Bikes have been sitting for a while. Need to get off my ass and sell them before someone inherits them.

    AHRMA roadracing makes you appreciate how good bikes are now...jeebers did we ride some nasty stuff back in the day.

  5. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I'm in it for the info. And if I can build a solid weekly race set for a fraction of the cost of Zipps/Mavics, why not?
    I went for Light Bicycle 88s and have had them built up to DA low flange hubs with CXray spokes. The set is now built, but just waiting to get the tyres glued on. It's hot as hell here at the moment, so this may take a while to do properly. All up, it will be $AUD900ish for all parts, build, tyres & gluing. A FFWD front on it's own would be around $800 now.

    I couldn't find much info on the LB road rims, but there's a lot of happy mountain bikers flogging their carbon MTB rims on the rocks and dirt, even in downhill. I could get them in a wide variety of spoke drilling options, esp the 28s I was after, and they even did my rims without the yukky brake track that I obviously wouldn't need. Once I get them in my hands, I'll post an updated pic of the steed wearing them in the bike pics thread.

    The new mech at the LBS came highly recommended, so I got him to do the build. Turns out he's done a stint with Zipp building wheels and also did mech duties for the Australian olympic team, so it seems he should be ok haha. He actually was really surprised with the rims in how well they went in the build. We'll see how they hold up under my 120kg before we pass final judgement. Overall I'm pretty happy with the end result so far, especially for the price.

  6. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    My autograph will net you $1200 on Ebay if I sign your SRM and you throw it in.

    Daytona 80-something. Bunch of the Euro factory teams came over, Eddie was on a factory Kwakersaki, Honda had a couple of dudes Etc. 2 guys in the front two rows spoke english. I think I had to pay some license surcharge.

    138 entries, 80 qualified.

    Blew up during qualifying, coasted across for 41st. which put me in the second wave and 30 seconds down at the start. Me and some nutty Spanish factory guy caught the first wave and commenced to wade through. We were riding pretty desperate, way out of shape most of the time. Lawson and the other two podium guys actually lapped us with two to go...those guys had 15 MPH on the banking and I was doing 150. Hello factory motors vs two year old public equipment.

    Ended up 18th. Finished with an empty gas tank.

    $400 payout.

    I got 5 times that for winning a couple of old fart bicycle races in Windward OK.

    Some of the top ten nationals paid less than I got at Daytona. One of my 4th places paid $250.

    The AMA makes the UCI looks good on the exploitation scale.

    It was fun, I was pretty good. With actual parental support vs. obstacle throwing or had I stumbled on a bucket of money I think I would have been a quite good top 5 guy and won some an occasional national or lucked into something bigger. As it was it kept my nose out of the ubiquitous blow and off the booze for extended periods...I had a "one week" rule about drugs and alkeehaul. Given the road most of my non-racing friends went down that was pretty big.

    I did AHRMA dirt track a couple of decades after I "retired" for two years. Bikes have been sitting for a while. Need to get off my ass and sell them before someone inherits them.

    AHRMA roadracing makes you appreciate how good bikes are now...jeebers did we ride some nasty stuff back in the day.
    Awesome, thanks for sharing! Sounds like you were out there with a lot of people I probably consider legendary. I only dabbled, but it's a hell of a fun thing to do if you get a chance. I miss it, nothing else like it that I know of.

  7. #432
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    How the Argon 18 Electron Pro frameset rates against the DF4, TK1, Look? The 2012 frameset is on sale for 1890 dolars


  8. #433
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8bits View Post
    How the Argon 18 Electron Pro frameset rates against the DF4, TK1, Look? The 2012 frameset is on sale for 1890 dolars

    It's got weird angles:
    Head tube angle of 72.5 degrees
    Seat tube angle of 76 or 78 degrees depending on how you configure it.

    The 72.5 head tube angle is a clue that they started with the E-112 road TT bike and modified it for track. It probably has a road fork on it, too.

    Compare this:


    To this:


    I'd pass on it. Cervelo did the same thing with the P3 Track / T3. Word is that it handles weird on the track.

  9. #434
    VeloSIRraptor
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    There are a couple of people riding them up here- but they don't handle great on steep tracks.
    It is easy to run anything at all at Marymoor, 27d banking will do that for ya

    I'd give it a pass
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  10. #435
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    Looking at getting new pedals for the new track bike and these are the three I'm thinking.
    Shimano R540
    Shimano 105
    Look Keo Classic
    What are you guys using?

  11. #436
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    I'm running R540s on my track bike and have done for about 4 years now. They're a little more plasticy and heavier than the up market versions, but I believe the clamp part is the same and the bearing system is the same all they way up to the Ultegra pedals that I have on my road bike. They've served me well for standing starts and lots of other power stuff. If cost is an issue, then go for them. If vanity is your issue, then go for the best you can afford.

  12. #437
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
    I'm running R540s on my track bike and have done for about 4 years now. They're a little more plasticy and heavier than the up market versions, but I believe the clamp part is the same and the bearing system is the same all they way up to the Ultegra pedals that I have on my road bike. They've served me well for standing starts and lots of other power stuff. If cost is an issue, then go for them. If vanity is your issue, then go for the best you can afford.
    The clamp and bearings are definitely not the same as Ultegra. I am not totally certain about the bearings (I might take a pair I have apart at some point, but they were leaking grease, which is indicative of a bushing), but the inner bearing is probably a plastic bushing. But I do know from experience the clip is quite a bit less robust than Ultegra. Basically, if you have the spring tension set high, when you clip in, it feels like the plastic part of the clip actually bends rather than acting as a rigid structure.

    Myself, I like Shimano Ultegra; if you can find the older stuff with the aluminum body (second generation), its selling really cheap right now and they have good quality bearings and hardware. Even the first generation pedals are pretty good, though the plastic platform tends to wear and cause a little play in the pedal/cleat interface. 105 is probably okay. Even R540 is okay, but like I said, not as robust as it looks in the catalog pictures.

    Also, Ultegra pedals (third gen) are on sale from PBK for $117 right now.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  13. #438
    VeloSIRraptor
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    stay away from Looks in general unless you are careful with observing your cleat wear.

    Shimano 105s are fine- last gen was all-metal on the wider body, was great stuff. The new ones are carbon, also good stuff. 540s aren't terrible, but I'd avoid for a track bike. if a road bike pedal goes bad, you probably will not have an accident- on a track bike that's not so certain.
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  14. #439
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbs z31 View Post
    Looking at getting new pedals for the new track bike and these are the three I'm thinking.
    Shimano R540
    Shimano 105
    Look Keo Classic
    What are you guys using?
    Regarding LOOK pedals. The maximum release tension on the LOOK pedals is probably 1/3 of the tension that you'd get with Shimano pedals. Stronger guys can easily pull out of them. If you are a medium to smaller sized rider, this shouldn't be a problem. If you are a big guy (even big beginner rider) I'd either suggest using Shimanos or using a strap with the LOOKs.

    Also, I'd suggest the LOOK KEO 2 MAX instead of KEO Classic.

    LOOKs aren't bad. Big guys like Chris Hoy and Gregory Bauge have used them...with straps.

    Personally I've been using various Shimano SPD-SL Ultegra and Dura Ace models for years. From the "Lance Pedals" (which are the direct ancestor of the PD-540) up till the PD-7810 (my favorite, easy to get straps on these). I haven't tried any of the newer carbon bodied Shimano pedals. I've also used Speedplay Zeros or LOOK KEO 2 Max on occasion, but I always went back to Shimano.

    Also, older Shimano SPD-SL pedals are just as good as current models. So, if you are on a budget, look for local shops or online that have older gen pedals new in the box at a discounted price.

    I'd avoid buying used unless you are pretty sure that they were used gently. A good pair of pedals can last several years. I have a set of PD-7810 that I'm still using 6 years and running. Think of them as an investment.

  15. #440
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    From the sound of it I think I'm going to pass on the Looks then. Now I need to decide if the extra cost for the Ultegra will be worth it over the R540. I would like a set of pedals that will last me at least 2-3 seasons of racing.

  16. #441
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbs z31 View Post
    From the sound of it I think I'm going to pass on the Looks then. Now I need to decide if the extra cost for the Ultegra will be worth it over the R540. I would like a set of pedals that will last me at least 2-3 seasons of racing.
    Then go for the Ultegras.

    Maybe consider Ultegra PD-6700. You can get them for around $100-120: https://www.google.com/search?q=pd-6...hop&tbo=u&sa=X

  17. #442
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    Check the tech docs on Shimano's site if you need to. From 540s all the way up to Ultegras, the bearing assembly is the same. If you search it up, you'll find similar discussions. I can't see a whole lot of difference between my Ultegra pedals on my road bike and the 540s I've been using for years. The pedal body is different, and the Ultegras have a metal cap vs plastic. 5th season under a wannabe sprinter kicking over at 120+kg, no straps, and never pulled out. I'd go for money being spent on something that really should be better like seat/bars/stems/shoes/tools etc. The only real draw back is you need a special $5 tool for servicing the 540s. 70g difference in weight too.

  18. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
    Check the tech docs on Shimano's site if you need to. From 540s all the way up to Ultegras, the bearing assembly is the same. If you search it up, you'll find similar discussions. I can't see a whole lot of difference between my Ultegra pedals on my road bike and the 540s I've been using for years. The pedal body is different, and the Ultegras have a metal cap vs plastic. 5th season under a wannabe sprinter kicking over at 120+kg, no straps, and never pulled out. I'd go for money being spent on something that really should be better like seat/bars/stems/shoes/tools etc. The only real draw back is you need a special $5 tool for servicing the 540s. 70g difference in weight too.
    So should I just go for the 540 and use the money I can save with them towards the track intro class?

  19. #444
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Also, I'd suggest the LOOK KEO 2 MAX instead of KEO Classic.

    LOOKs aren't bad. Big guys like Chris Hoy and Gregory Bauge have used them...with straps.
    I pulled out of LOOK Keo Classics twice in Madison practice (you have to stomp on the pedals pretty hard when throwing somebody in).

    I got Keo Sprints (higher spring tension) after that and haven't had a problem since.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  20. #445
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    Not so uch saying you should, but if it was me, then I would. If money is a bit tight and 540s vs Ultegras is the difference between doing an intro class now or much later, then definitely.

    I do like nice things and I will be upgrading to "better" pedals sooner rather than later myself. My daughter is ready to go clipless on her road bike, so they will find a new home there while I spend some money on myself. Servicing them is ultra easy, so keep the servicing up on whatever you get and they should last you a very long time.

  21. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
    Not so uch saying you should, but if it was me, then I would. If money is a bit tight and 540s vs Ultegras is the difference between doing an intro class now or much later, then definitely.

    I do like nice things and I will be upgrading to "better" pedals sooner rather than later myself. My daughter is ready to go clipless on her road bike, so they will find a new home there while I spend some money on myself. Servicing them is ultra easy, so keep the servicing up on whatever you get and they should last you a very long time.
    Thanks, I'm going to the bike shop this Saturday to pick up some parts and assemble my bike there so while I'm there I will look at the two pedals and really decide which one to get.

  22. #447
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbs z31 View Post
    Thanks, I'm going to the bike shop this Saturday to pick up some parts and assemble my bike there so while I'm there I will look at the two pedals and really decide which one to get.
    Take note that the R540 is an older design that uses a hard to find replaceable plastic thing in the middle. See the part with "Shimano" on it here:



    That part is there to prevent a very small vertical gap between the pedal and the cleat. After time and again of twisting your foot out of the pedal, this will wear down and the gap will appear. Then you will have "vertical float" of a millimeter or two in every pedal stroke. Your cleat will actually separate from the pedal a bit. You won't unclip, bit you will feel that slight gap. That's when you replace that plastic bit.

    Newer models have metal there that lasts longer.



    Also, the newer body has a slightly wider contact patch. Feels better under the foot.

    If you only have budget for R540s then they will be fine. But if you can stretch your budget to 105s or better, I'd do that.

  23. #448
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    That part is called the "Body Cover".

    Replacement pedal body cover for Shimano PD-6610 and PD-R540 SPD-SL pedals. This friction plate is designed to be replaced periodically for the best pedal performance. Now, we all know that the 6610 and R540 pedal were a good design and had many fans, but one flaw was the use of a plastic plate. It needs to be replaced to eliminate squeaking and rocking that occurs when this friction plate starts to wear. Fortunately, the replacement procedure is a simple operation and the plates are relatively inexpensive. Sold individually, so order 2 for one pair of pedals.


    http://www.excelsports.com/main.asp?...ajor=5&minor=6

  24. #449
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    Carleton, what would be the real gain(s) and benefit(s) upgrading to the Ultegra pedals? My budget for pedals is right around $200 and the R540 only came up because there's so many positive reviews.

  25. #450
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
    Check the tech docs on Shimano's site if you need to. From 540s all the way up to Ultegras, the bearing assembly is the same. If you search it up, you'll find similar discussions. I can't see a whole lot of difference between my Ultegra pedals on my road bike and the 540s I've been using for years. The pedal body is different, and the Ultegras have a metal cap vs plastic. 5th season under a wannabe sprinter kicking over at 120+kg, no straps, and never pulled out. I'd go for money being spent on something that really should be better like seat/bars/stems/shoes/tools etc. The only real draw back is you need a special $5 tool for servicing the 540s. 70g difference in weight too.
    No need to get defensive. The bearings on all the pedals are all two bearing systems. You are right.

    I'll stand by my evaluation of the clip. The 540s felt very mushy on clip-in and clip-out. Buy good stuff once; I was a unsatisfied with the R540s - the ultegras are worth the money, especially when you can get them for around $100.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

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