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  1. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I don't think you'd have any advantage in terms of creating speed or better aerodynamics. The only advantage I can see is maybe in the areas of safety (pads, helmets), durability (tires), nutrition (new studies, new supplements), or training (benefiting from new "best practices" and whatnot).

    EDIT:

    Also, maybe Baby Puke will answer. He raced NJS races in Japan. Here's his blog: Keirin-jo Tourist
    Tires are the same, Soyo's, I'm sure that tire hasn't changed since the 60's (it's a very very nice tire). I have seen some pretty wild frames executed within the rules with aero tubing and crazy geometry. It must be steel. Keep in mind they don't have to worry about UCI rules so really steep seat angles are sometimes seen for those who want an extreme forward position, and you will see some oddball forward stuff, like almost kissing the front tire. There are definitely a variety of schools of thought on how to sit on a bike. Wheels have got to be Araya box rims and 36 spokes, but they can be bladed. But that's about it. I think a bike pulled out of a time machine from 1975 would be just as good as what you could get now. Padding is maybe different and better, the helmet is the same but it's basically a motorcycle helmet.

    By the way, I don't want anyone getting the idea I was riding pro over there, I wasn't. I just rode with a club that (at that time) pretty much demanded that you ride to the rules. Or at the very least clips and straps and the mushroom hat. Other non-NJS stuff was merely "frowned upon".

  2. #627
    Senior Member GhostSS's Avatar
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    Still pretty cool, I read a bit of your blog that's great stuff! I haven't been back to Japan since 2006, I really miss it. I'd like to take my bike(s) next time I go and try track or tour around the country side.

  3. #628
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    GhostSS, where did you live and for how long? I miss it too. We plan to go back. If gonna tour by bike bring your climbing legs! Hella mountainous.

  4. #629
    Senior Member GhostSS's Avatar
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    I was born near Aomori-Ken but I was young when my family left for America (around age 6). I went to Kita-Kyushu Oita-Ken for about a year to study in college. Didn't do much cycling, the college was on a forested volcano (an onsen town, Beppu-shi), getting to and from would have been a trial. EDIT: Instead I joined the college rugby team. We lost every game.
    Last edited by GhostSS; 03-12-14 at 12:57 AM.

  5. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostSS View Post
    I was born near Aomori-Ken but I was young when my family left for America (around age 6). I went to Kita-Kyushu Oita-Ken for about a year to study in college. Didn't do much cycling, the college was on a forested volcano (an onsen town, Beppu-shi), getting to and from would have been a trial. EDIT: Instead I joined the college rugby team. We lost every game.
    Whoa, my wife's family is from Aomori-shi! I've heard Beppu is really nice.

  6. #631
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    While not practical and I'm not really even suggesting it is how it Should Be...

    there is something interesting about an NJS type Standard- it brings it back to Man Versus Man.. Things would be simpler that way.. And I wouldn't have to figure out my aero position..

  7. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    While not practical and I'm not really even suggesting it is how it Should Be...

    there is something interesting about an NJS type Standard- it brings it back to Man Versus Man.. Things would be simpler that way.. And I wouldn't have to figure out my aero position..
    Very true, Quinn. Simplifies things a lot.

  8. #633
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    What are the thoughts on a Felt TK3? Particularly for a newcomer to track? I really don't want to put ANY money into this cheap chinese bike I have and my LBS has a TK3. While I usually couldn't care less on public opinion of ME, I'd still rather not look like a poser LOL! The TK3 is priced pretty reasonably compared to what I see some people paying for a "fixie"
    (He did have me get on a 56 and said I looked like a bear on a tricycle - so I'm not concerned about size. We both know what I need now).

  9. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    While not practical and I'm not really even suggesting it is how it Should Be...

    there is something interesting about an NJS type Standard- it brings it back to Man Versus Man.. Things would be simpler that way.. And I wouldn't have to figure out my aero position..
    In theory the UCI bike rules are supposed to even out the technology, just a few decades later than NJS and sticker instead of stamped into the part (not mentioning the confused random changes). The down side is that with tight rules in place to ensure no gross advantage getting the marginal edge can be more costly. And to truly even it out you need to regulate the clothing and positions (and ban short/small riders who do not provide adequate draft :-)).
    Getting the tech out of the equation and just having a standard bike and kit would be a better race and make the focus just on training/racing, but then how would us masters racers have a hope of keeping up with the kids.

  10. #635
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    Anyone use the Giro AirAttack (with or without the Shield) on the track? Looks like it could be a fun helmet to try out.

  11. #636
    Senior Member spazegun2213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiveflat View Post
    What are the thoughts on a Felt TK3? Particularly for a newcomer to track? I really don't want to put ANY money into this cheap chinese bike I have and my LBS has a TK3. While I usually couldn't care less on public opinion of ME, I'd still rather not look like a poser LOL! The TK3 is priced pretty reasonably compared to what I see some people paying for a "fixie"
    (He did have me get on a 56 and said I looked like a bear on a tricycle - so I'm not concerned about size. We both know what I need now).
    they are great starter bikes. The only "downside" to them is the skinny Chainring, chain and rear gear (both are 3/32"). Most track stuff is 1/8" for all of that. That being said, unless you are making a TON of power, that stuff will last you seasons of use. Upgrading all of that is not very expensive at all either. So that is the only "downside." We have a few people riding them here in San Diego and they all love them.
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  12. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by slindell View Post
    In theory the UCI bike rules are supposed to even out the technology, just a few decades later than NJS and sticker instead of stamped into the part (not mentioning the confused random changes). The down side is that with tight rules in place to ensure no gross advantage getting the marginal edge can be more costly. And to truly even it out you need to regulate the clothing and positions (and ban short/small riders who do not provide adequate draft :-)).
    Getting the tech out of the equation and just having a standard bike and kit would be a better race and make the focus just on training/racing, but then how would us masters racers have a hope of keeping up with the kids.
    When you literally have one rim, one saddle, one brand of handlebar, one spoke maker, etc., the costs are manageable. There is no room for experimentation or exotica, which some people will understandably object to. But it does keep things cheap, at least in this specific example. My Panasonic is a much less expensive bike than my Dolan.

  13. #638
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    While not practical and I'm not really even suggesting it is how it Should Be...

    there is something interesting about an NJS type Standard- it brings it back to Man Versus Man.. Things would be simpler that way.. And I wouldn't have to figure out my aero position..
    Yeah, NJS is essentially the IROC of bike racing.

    Drivers raced identically-prepared stock cars set up by a single team of mechanics in an effort to make the race purely a test of driver ability.
    International Race of Champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  14. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Yeah, NJS is essentially the IROC of bike racing.



    International Race of Champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I was thinking of IROC when commenting where ideally you just show up and pick a bike off the rack. But I seem to remember that some cars were consistently faster than others so the results were partially determined by the draw.
    On bikes you get into the insignificant digits by things like rims getting heavier as the dies wear so different batches vary in weight. Frames vary in alignment, weight and fine measurements. So even if not mattering much in overall results there are minor variations. Ski manufacturers pull skis off the line that match flex/weight/vibration parameters that they want for the race pool so even though you can buy the same model off the same line as the top racers their equipment is faster. Some of the racers claim favoritism by the ski mfgs for some racers getting the best off the line.

    Overall I think having a standard bike would be good for most racers by capping the cost it is probably not sellable at the top end and the standard bikes would cost more than the low end now raising the barrier a bit to get started. If you need the equipment boost (or other help) to get an upgrade to the next cat life probably will not be pleasant there anyway so applying limits to cats 5-3(2?) might help people enjoy things more.

  15. #640
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Those that (rightfully) complain the most about standardization are the equipment manufacturers.

    Where is the incentive to innovate if you cannot profit from it?

    Why would Specialized spend hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars creating the Shiv if the league governing bodies will not allow it which means that their target audience (a serious triathlete) cannot use it in comp so they can't sell it? So, why innovate at all?

    For example, the day that the UCI (and by extension, USA Cycling) says that track bikes must use a double triangle design made of round aluminum tubing...blah, blah, blah... will be the day that Felt stops producing the TK1 (as an example). And you can see how others will follow suit.

    ...OR that will be the day that a new governing body will get a breath of life.


    Athletes want to go faster than before. Athletes don't want to see if they were fast as athletes of years past by riding the same bikes those guys rode.

    Who wants to race on this:



    When you can race on this:



    ...assuming that you had 20,000USD just laying around

  16. #641
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    Hour Record

    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Who wants to race on this:
    Me!
    Where do I sign up?

    UCI Hour Record
    Best Human Effort
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    XXXI

  17. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Those that (rightfully) complain the most about standardization are the equipment manufacturers.

    Where is the incentive to innovate if you cannot profit from it?

    Why would Specialized spend hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars creating the Shiv if the league governing bodies will not allow it which means that their target audience (a serious triathlete) cannot use it in comp so they can't sell it? So, why innovate at all?

    For example, the day that the UCI (and by extension, USA Cycling) says that track bikes must use a double triangle design made of round aluminum tubing...blah, blah, blah... will be the day that Felt stops producing the TK1 (as an example). And you can see how others will follow suit.

    ...OR that will be the day that a new governing body will get a breath of life.


    Athletes want to go faster than before. Athletes don't want to see if they were fast as athletes of years past by riding the same bikes those guys rode.

    Who wants to race on this:



    When you can race on this:



    ...assuming that you had 20,000USD just laying around
    But Carleton, development has been stiffled for years now. That Look still complies with the double diamond frame priciple purely because the UCI says it must. That design in no way maximizes the utility of fiber reinforced plastic as an engineering material. And, it costs 19,000 USD more than the Merckx example would for very marginal gains. Eliminate the wheels from that equation and the gains become even less.

    Given your title as 27.2 Seatpost Champion and proponent and that you have previously supported that "fit" far exceeds "material" with regard to importance to race performance, I'm somewhat surprised you would be so quick to the above view.

    I can't agree with anyone that thinks cost is somehow limiting track participation. There are plenty of very capable track bikes available for reasonable amounts and many tracks have rental/loaner bikes for those who have an interest.

    What is missing is accessability and cool factor. Make it fashionable and people will flock for a short while. Somehow find a way to make track cycling part of a locales culture and they'll continue to return and participate.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  18. #643
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    If I'm happy with my performance during endurance races, but struggle on the sprints at the end, should I (as well as focussing on it in training) consider a different gear in order to help me get going. I currently use 86 GI and feel comfortable on it.

  19. #644
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    But Carleton, development has been stiffled for years now. That Look still complies with the double diamond frame priciple purely because the UCI says it must. That design in no way maximizes the utility of fiber reinforced plastic as an engineering material. And, it costs 19,000 USD more than the Merckx example would for very marginal gains. Eliminate the wheels from that equation and the gains become even less.

    Given your title as 27.2 Seatpost Champion and proponent and that you have previously supported that "fit" far exceeds "material" with regard to importance to race performance, I'm somewhat surprised you would be so quick to the above view.

    I can't agree with anyone that thinks cost is somehow limiting track participation. There are plenty of very capable track bikes available for reasonable amounts and many tracks have rental/loaner bikes for those who have an interest.

    What is missing is accessability and cool factor. Make it fashionable and people will flock for a short while. Somehow find a way to make track cycling part of a locales culture and they'll continue to return and participate.
    Right! The Double-Diamond is just part of the problem.

    Remember the days of bikes like this:



    UCI put an end to that.

    We could totally have new bikes that are faster.

    If it were up to the UCI, skinsuits would not be allowed either. Technically, a woman's sports bra is illegal under current rules that prevent any "added support or body modification" (or however it is worded).

    As far as 27.2 is concerned: If aero seatposts didn't slip, I would ride them. But, they slip.

  20. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Right! The Double-Diamond is just part of the problem.

    Remember the days of bikes like this:



    UCI put an end to that.

    We could totally have new bikes that are faster.

    If it were up to the UCI, skinsuits would not be allowed either. Technically, a woman's sports bra is illegal under current rules that prevent any "added support or body modification" (or however it is worded).

    As far as 27.2 is concerned: If aero seatposts didn't slip, I would ride them. But, they slip.
    Yep.

    What we have right now is more similliar to NASCAR. Where manufactuteres spend inordinate sums of money for very small incremental gains compared to what could be attained if that same budget were allocated to actual innovation.

    UCI's entire skin suit, body shaping, tangent is completely rediculous! "You, there, you're clothes are too tight." "You,.... you're national team didn't invest enough in good tailoring, your suit is too loose in some places and too tight in others." "I am sorry, your body morphology does not comply with what the UCI would like to see a cyclist shaped like, you are disqualified for being too ....(insert: tall, short, skinny, round, V shaped, ^ shaped, muscular, annorexic)." Or, at least, disadvantaged. "Oh, and your suit should be looser around the mid section and tighter across your shoulds and hips." Yeah, right.

    Why Carleton? Why, must you want an aero post? How much time do you think one will be worth? :-)
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  21. #646
    Senior Member GhostSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Right! The Double-Diamond is just part of the problem.

    Remember the days of bikes like this:



    UCI put an end to that.

    We could totally have new bikes that are faster.

    If it were up to the UCI, skinsuits would not be allowed either. Technically, a woman's sports bra is illegal under current rules that prevent any "added support or body modification" (or however it is worded).

    As far as 27.2 is concerned: If aero seatposts didn't slip, I would ride them. But, they slip.
    I prefer the shape of the Lotus 110 over the 108 myself.
    1207_clip_image003.jpg

    I completely agree with you though, the UCI is retarding innovation and variety. Even with things you've previously mentioned like bike weight or even body positions it definitely shows that they are more concerned with "tradition" than racing. It's really a shame.

    Anyone remember the Group-B rally races? No restrictions rally racing was pretty much the most exciting, fast paced, and fun looking of any rally I've ever witnessed. Also because of fewer restrictions it allowed engineers to get creative and improve car technology that later had an impact on the car industry as a whole. That was banned too.

    By contrast, Group B had few restrictions on technology, design and the number of cars required for homologation to compete—200, less than other series. Weight was kept as low as possible, high-tech materials were permitted, and there were no restrictions on boost, resulting in the power output of the winning cars increasing from 250 hp in 1981,[2] the year before Group B rules were introduced, to there being at least two cars producing in excess of 500 by 1986, the final year of Group B.[3] In just 5 years, the power output of rally cars had more than doubled.

    Heck, even Steher motor pace and tandem sprints need to make a comeback, those were great!
    Last edited by GhostSS; 03-12-14 at 09:50 PM.

  22. #647
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    To summarize my stance on seatposts:

    As the saying in Engineering goes: "First, make it work, then make it work better."

    Aero seatposts skipped the first part and started in on the second. So many people of all sizes have had issues with them slipping. They don't work well as they are not reliable.

    The best compromise that I've seen is the Alpina Wing seatpost which is round where it counts as well as being flat where it counts:



    It comes in multiple lengths. You choose the one that best minimizes the exposed round area.



    Tiemeyer (and others) addressed this by, instead of extending an aero seatpost, extending the aero seatube and only using a bit of round seatpost.



    But, of course, that means you have to get the frame custom made to take advantage of that solution. The Alpina solution is much more accessible.

  23. #648
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    What is the name of this Casco helmet? It is not listed on their website, yet they display it in their banners.



    When I worked at a record store in college (god, I feel old saying "record store"), we weren't allowed to play any music that we did not have in stock to sell. This is simply because the purpose of playing music in the store was to get customers to buy it...but if we didn't have it available to sell, that just frustrated the customer and sent them elsewhere to buy it.

  24. #649
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    While not practical and I'm not really even suggesting it is how it Should Be...

    there is something interesting about an NJS type Standard- it brings it back to Man Versus Man.. Things would be simpler that way.. And I wouldn't have to figure out my aero position..
    At the highest levels of sport, the training regimens are more similar than different.

    Here's the interesting thing about the man vs man concept, when "all things are equal" as far as equipment AND training go, it comes down to things outside of your control...genetics. To me, that would make things less interesting.

    The history of sport as so many examples of men and women who were plucked from a daily humdrum life and, with some (relatively) minimal training, became champions. We've all read the stories. Joanna Rowsell and Phillip Hinds come to mind.

    If anything, it is my humble opinion that equipment is more of an equalizer than anything. Engineering + Genetics beats Genetics alone

    I think Technology/Engineering is another variable that keeps sport interesting. For example, in motorsport there is SOOOO much chatter about, "What tires will he run today?.." "Did he gamble on the right compound?"
    Last edited by carleton; 03-13-14 at 06:02 PM.

  25. #650
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    Anybody else have one of those Alpina seatposts start looking all squished in the clamping area?

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