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  1. #776
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    I always warm-up in a 48X16(81") and i always put it back on at the end of my session because i will always be doing rollers in the same gear the next day.

    workouts are done in 1 of 3 different gears, for my entire days workout. My Kilo Race gear or 2" below it or 2" above it.
    the theory is that you want to develop your ability to put out power at a range of cadences. So varying the gear size a reasonable amount, that allows your normal speeds and power. you don't want your over or under gear to be so extreme as to affect the quality of the workout. If you can't replicate your normal times or speeds- you are sacrificing quality.

    All my leg speed work comes from rollers. I think doing leg speed on the rollers is far superior. First off you aren't sacrificing valuable track training time with form workouts. Second- the entirely Active nature of rollers means that 100% of a high RPM effort is being powered. During big under geared track workouts there is a lot of Passive time- where the legs are just going around with the pedals- which is less effective in improving pedal mechanics. Just like riding a fixie down a big hill at high RPM's, while your feet just spin along for the ride, is totally ineffective training.

    nothing but anecdotal evidence on my Leg-Speed theories- but i do feel my training has made me a less gear dependent rider. I can replicate efforts- in flying 200's or race situations through a big range of gear sizes. I am not a Cadence Limited rider..

  2. #777
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    Do you people change gears much during training?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    I know a few guys that train on a smaller (as in easier) gear at the start of the season to work on cadence, and then move to a bigger gear later in the season, but I dont really understand the point of this, especially as there isn't much of an 'off season' with us with indoor tracks.
    Generally speaking, as the season progresses, people get stronger and adapt to the bigger gears. I've seen experienced racers show up the first month of racing on 90" gears (50t/15t) and progress to 92-94" mid-season and 94-96" late in the season.

    I don't think it's necessarily to work on cadence. I think it's the fact that they can't work in the effective cadence ranges that they want on the big gears early in the season. They can't "get on-top" of the gears yet. So, they use the smaller gears till they start revving out of them.

    I'm not sure how inhabitants of indoor tracks structure their training. I've never been a local of an indoor track

    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    Some days our coach will tell us to move to a smaller gear so we can have an 'easier' day but really we are still killing it its just at higher cadences/slightly slower speeds.
    I'd imagine that your coach is simply training the various components:

    - Strength
    - Cadence
    - Power (strength x cadence)
    - Top Speed (power x muscle-timing)
    - Podium Wave

    Some train the systems independently of each other then slowly start bringing them together to form a Peak.






  3. #778
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    haha Ill be sure to reference Mr. Miyagi tonight when I see him


    I think for us its less about being indoors and about being on a 138m track, we don't get much 'range' to begin with since top speeds are limited, especially if you weigh anything.

  4. #779
    JMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    Sounds good, kind of what I was hoping to hear actually. I want to start doing more pursuit training at race speed but don't want be pushing a massive gear for the rest of the session obviously. At my track I don't see anyone changing gears much, most people have NEVER changed gears lol
    Most people are lazy and/or slow at changing gears, so they don't... but 99% of those aren't the serious guys.

    Watch the serious, fast guys... I bet they will change gears between warm up and races.

    The good thing about changing gears a lot is you get good at it! I can change a gear HEAPS quicker than I used to be able to!

    JMR
    Last edited by JMR; 04-02-14 at 05:45 PM. Reason: typo

  5. #780
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    I change gears all the time. Usually I'll have two rear wheels with flip hubs for the possibility of four different cogs, and I'll change rings as needed. Also, there is a vast difference in the quality of chainwhips. Use this:



    Rather than this:



    And it'll make your life much easier. Notice how the chain is strung up on the chainwhip. It makes a huge difference. Shimano's "Track" chainwhip is the best, IMO.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

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    I use the Miche cogs so its just a matter of taking the lock ring off. Tonight I warmed up on a 16 and switched to a 15 as the night got on and it felt a little better, even though I have a cold and coughing like a smoker. I've spent the last 2 months riding road so can feel my legs 'resisting' the higher cadence, need to remind them they don't get to shift up

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    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    just to add to whats been said above, in a perfect world there are lots of gear changes in training, if you want to get the most out of it. If there are time constraints etc, its not always practical. A sprinter could change gear especially often - such as between each effort. A big group training together, changing gear between each effort, could realllly stretch the session out way too long.
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  8. #783
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    I agree. I can change front and rear in about 5 minutes, which is half of the time we usually rest between efforts. I don't use double sided hubs. Like Quinn, I always put my warm up gear back on after the training session is over. For those of you familiar with Roger's sessions, I can change front and back between warm up and the start of intervals, and between the intervals and the motor game. Like Mr. Miyagi says, wipe on, wipe off; practice, practice and develop a process. For example, I loosen my chain ring bolts while the rear wheel is still tight in the drop outs, because I can hold the wheel to make loosening the bolts easier. Then I change the cog on the rear wheel, and while the wheel is off the bike, I complete the change of the chain ring, then put the rear wheel back on. Over the last couple of years, I have made it a game to finish a gear change before anyone else in the group. This is also practical, as it leaves me time to drain my old and tired bladder before the next group effort begins

  9. #784
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I have a couple of observations about changing gears at the track and this is not a criticism but... Many track bikes do not facilitate changing gears easily and most of the newer trackies are clueless about mechanical issues and many show up with tires under pressure and wheels in crooked.

    I volunteered a couple of years ago to help with the team pursuit program and typically regeared about 5 bikes per session a couple of times. Most racers do not know what gear they have on the bike let alone what it should be for warmup, training or racing.

    Most of the less expensive track bikes have limited rear horizontal space versus my Dolan DF3 or other similar bikes that have a large horizontal rear slot with adjusting screws to tighten the chain and align the wheel.

    So for any new trackies, getting a track bike that accommodates and facilitates gear changing is very good. And changing gearing to match racing, training and time of year is practiced by many successful racers.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

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    Hermes, what down-market frameset would you say best facilitates straight forward gear changes by novices?? In the sub 1k$ category.

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    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAVL View Post
    Hermes, what down-market frameset would you say best facilitates straight forward gear changes by novices?? In the sub 1k$ category.
    I do not think that is a relevant question since changing gears is something one learns. Any bike can be regeared such that it is a matter of the time it takes and is there adequate chain length and horizontal dropout space to accommodate a wide range of gear selections. The other thing that happens is that the hardened steel on the rear dropouts begins to wear from repeated gear changes. As it wears, it becomes more and more difficult to get the chain tension right. On the better bikes, the dropout steel inserts can be replaced with new ones. I am not familiar with the down-market track bike offerings to say which one is better.

    Planet X has a sale on complete bikes for 700 pounds with excellent rear dropouts and adjuster screws. I used to own one.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I do not think that is a relevant question since changing gears is something one learns. Any bike can be regeared such that it is a matter of the time it takes and is there adequate chain length and horizontal dropout space to accommodate a wide range of gear selections. The other thing that happens is that the hardened steel on the rear dropouts begins to wear from repeated gear changes. As it wears, it becomes more and more difficult to get the chain tension right. On the better bikes, the dropout steel inserts can be replaced with new ones. I am not familiar with the down-market track bike offerings to say which one is better.

    Planet X has a sale on complete bikes for 700 pounds with excellent rear dropouts and adjuster screws. I used to own one.
    +1 on the Planet X


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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAVL View Post
    Hermes, what down-market frameset would you say best facilitates straight forward gear changes by novices?? In the sub 1k$ category.
    On second-thought, the Planet X might not be stiff enough for you DanAVL. You probably make too much torque. I rode an earlier version of that frame (which wasn't high modulus carbon) and was able to flex the rear wheel into chainstay. Aluminum was stiffer for me. If you get carbon, get high modulus.

    I'd look into the Hoy Fiorenzuola complete bike:

    http://www.hoybikes.com/track/94-hoy...ola-track-bike

    ...among others.

  14. #789
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    For a prospective new racer with a lot of power, there are the open mold Chinese carbon framesets. I believe that VanceMac has looked at them and may have a comment.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  15. #790
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    For a prospective new racer with a lot of power, there are the open mold Chinese carbon framesets. I believe that VanceMac has looked at them and may have a comment.
    Yes, super happy with my new generic carbon frame. But I was also quite happy with Hermes' old Planet X, which I didn't find flexy at all (but I'm a lightweight). Someone DanAVL's size, I can definitely see going beefy aluminum. Whatever happened to the @ftwelder prototype?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I do not think that is a relevant question since changing gears is something one learns. Any bike can be regeared such that it is a matter of the time it takes and is there adequate chain length and horizontal dropout space to accommodate a wide range of gear selections. The other thing that happens is that the hardened steel on the rear dropouts begins to wear from repeated gear changes. As it wears, it becomes more and more difficult to get the chain tension right. On the better bikes, the dropout steel inserts can be replaced with new ones. I am not familiar with the down-market track bike offerings to say which one is better.

    Planet X has a sale on complete bikes for 700 pounds with excellent rear dropouts and adjuster screws. I used to own one.
    Thanks for the input!
    Hopefully my experience as a machinist will somehow help me to bungle the whole gear thing slightly less once I get into it. Probably not though.

    Funny you should suggest the Planet X as I believe that's the one I've spent most of my time staring at. Thusfar it's been my favorite, at least from a visceral perspective. I've yet to read anything negative about it and a couple of their bikes seem like a great value at sub 1200$US.

    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    On second-thought, the Planet X might not be stiff enough for you DanAVL. You probably make too much torque. I rode an earlier version of that frame (which wasn't high modulus carbon) and was able to flex the rear wheel into chainstay. Aluminum was stiffer for me. If you get carbon, get high modulus.

    I'd look into the Hoy Fiorenzuola complete bike:

    HOY Fiorenzuola Track Bike - HOY Bikes | Developed by Sir Chris Hoy

    ...among others.
    I've read on other threads here about flexing into the chainstay. Is this really a common occurrence? Is the bike essentially ruined at that point? These frames seem so overbuilt I can't believe a newbie like me could torque something out! I've been putting money into my track bike fund for a while and definitely want to make sure my first purchase is a well informed one! I appreciate the info!

    I found that Hoy on a distributor's site for 650 GPB. Putting that one on the list, fo sho. And it comes in matte black. Boom.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Yes, super happy with my new generic carbon frame. But I was also quite happy with Hermes' old Planet X, which I didn't find flexy at all (but I'm a lightweight). Someone DanAVL's size, I can definitely see going beefy aluminum. Whatever happened to the @ftwelder prototype?
    Where does one go about looking for these blank carbons/aluminums? And is it recommended for new riders to build out their first bike or buy complete? I assume there are pros and cons to each?

    I appreciate your input guys!


    Unrelated, but I rode over to the mellowdrome's first race of the season this week to check it out. I wasn't expecting such a big turnout. It's the first race I've seen in person. Even though it was road-bike night, it still got me very excited about the idea of racing. It looks like a freakin blast!
    It was a great motivator too! The guys in the head of the pack on points laps were haaaaulin. That kind of stuff really gets me going in training.

  17. #792
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAVL View Post
    I've read on other threads here about flexing into the chainstay. Is this really a common occurrence? Is the bike essentially ruined at that point? These frames seem so overbuilt I can't believe a newbie like me could torque something out! I've been putting money into my track bike fund for a while and definitely want to make sure my first purchase is a well informed one! I appreciate the info!

    I found that Hoy on a distributor's site for 650 GPB. Putting that one on the list, fo sho. And it comes in matte black. Boom.
    When you do a Standing Start, you put a lot of force into the chain and into the rear triangle. A guy like you who can squat over 400lbs will make a bike cry.



    I watched Steve Hill break a chainstay on a Dolan during a standing start. He also squats over 400lbs.

    I'm not saying it will happen, but it could. Even if you don't break it, you'll probably momentarily so much that the wheel might rub against the chainstay and becoming a brake.

    When most bikes are designed, they have 160-180lb guys in mind. Not guys your (our) size. You ever sit in an office chair that wasn't designed for a guy your size? It's sorta like that.

    Hoy, on the other hand, is a guy your size and he seems to have made sure that his bikes are up to par for beginner through advanced racing. There are many others, too. Felt TK2/TK3, 2008 Fuji Track Pro, etc...

    Carbon is cool, but budget carbon isn't the way to go for very strong guys. Aluminum or higher-end carbon will serve you better.

  18. #793
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAVL View Post
    Thanks for the input!

    Unrelated, but I rode over to the mellowdrome's first race of the season this week to check it out. I wasn't expecting such a big turnout. It's the first race I've seen in person. Even though it was road-bike night, it still got me very excited about the idea of racing. It looks like a freakin blast!
    It was a great motivator too! The guys in the head of the pack on points laps were haaaaulin. That kind of stuff really gets me going in training.
    it IS A freakin blast! Looking forward to hearing the report-backs once you've got your bike and hit the track
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    When you do a Standing Start, you put a lot of force into the chain and into the rear triangle. A guy like you who can squat over 400lbs will make a bike cry.

    I watched Steve Hill break a chainstay on a Dolan during a standing start. He also squats over 400lbs.

    I'm not saying it will happen, but it could. Even if you don't break it, you'll probably momentarily so much that the wheel might rub against the chainstay and becoming a brake.

    When most bikes are designed, they have 160-180lb guys in mind. Not guys your (our) size. You ever sit in an office chair that wasn't designed for a guy your size? It's sorta like that.

    Hoy, on the other hand, is a guy your size and he seems to have made sure that his bikes are up to par for beginner through advanced racing. There are many others, too. Felt TK2/TK3, 2008 Fuji Track Pro, etc...

    Carbon is cool, but budget carbon isn't the way to go for very strong guys. Aluminum or higher-end carbon will serve you better.
    I'm picking up what you're putting down. Makes sense.
    On the upside, I'm definitely not squatting 4-hondo plus anytime soon. I took a solid 5 months off of strength training thanks to my kne. Just dipping my toes back in now. Just lifting twice a week on reduced progression, focusing on pedaling(which I presume I should be?).

    This oversized road bike is painful but I'm happy to be on any bike. I think I've experienced some of the flex you're talking about though. Sometimes when I start in hard on my flying 250's I hear what I believe is the brakes rubbing on the wheels or something else making unnecessary contact and I can feel weird resistance until I get spooled out.

    Ive watched that standing start video probably 10 times. Hes not human, he's like iron.

  20. #795
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAVL View Post
    I took a solid 5 months off of strength training thanks to my kne. Just dipping my toes back in now..., focusing on pedaling(which I presume I should be?). .
    5 months off is really crap. (well, maybe i'm projecting, but it would be crap for me. I might just end up in a straight-jacket ) sorry to hear that
    hope your kne is improving. Wat happened to your kne ?

    Explain more about what you mean when you say you are focussing on pedalling? although it seems like a totally straight-forward concept, pedalling turns out to be a pretty complex science, all in all
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    5 months off is really crap. (well, maybe i'm projecting, but it would be crap for me. I might just end up in a straight-jacket ) sorry to hear that
    hope your kne is improving. Wat happened to your kne ?

    Explain more about what you mean when you say you are focussing on pedalling? although it seems like a totally straight-forward concept, pedalling turns out to be a pretty complex science, all in all

    Oh it has driven me mad. I was deep in a nice stretch of PR's at that bodyweight and then my knee flared again. I've been dealing with it for years. I'm excited to be squatting at all right now, for sure. It was originally a mild strain incurred during a sprint(foot) race in my first year in the Navy. This turned into a tracking issue which has just snowballed over the years. I'll usually get a solid 14 months of strength training out of it, and it taps out. Hence my initial interest in cycling.

    I didn't mean to make it(pedaling) sound over simplified. I'm sure what I'm doing is less than ideal as I'm just shooting from the hip. I didn't want to make the 17,087,096th "hey guys newb training here" thread.

    Right now my training has looked like:
    --Day One:
    Track, Flying 1000m, x5, 5 Min Breaks
    --Day Two:
    Gym, DL, FS
    --Day Three:
    Road, 10 Miles
    --Day Four:
    Off
    --Day Five:
    Track, Flying 500m, x5, 5 Min Breaks
    --Day Six:
    Gym, DL, FS
    --Day Seven:
    Road, 10 Miles
    --Day Eight:
    Off
    --Day Nine:
    Track, Flying 250m 6 Rounds, 5 Min Break
    Road, 1.25 Mile Course, 4 Rounds, 4 Min Breaks
    --Day Ten:
    Gym, DL, FS
    --Day Eleven:
    Road, 10 Miles
    BW Strength
    --Day Twelve:
    Off
    --Day Thirteen:
    Track, Flying 500m, 6 Rounds, 5 Min Break
    --Day Fourteen:
    Gym, Squat, ACC
    --Day Fifteen:
    Track, Flying 250m, 6 Rounds, 5 Min Break
    --Day Sixteen:
    Road, 1.25 Mile Course, 4 Rounds, 5 Min Break
    Gym, DL, FS
    --Day Seventeen:
    Road, 10 Miles
    BW Strength
    --Day Eighteen:
    Off
    --Day Nineteen:
    Track, 2000m, 4 Rounds, 5 Min Break

    So, clearly have no idea what I'm doing. Right now I'm tooling around on a Trek LS roadbike that my landlord left behind and said I could use. It's wayyy too big and I'm using flats. Doing the best I can with what I've got here.

    I'm tracking my split times with a stopwatch quite literally duct taped to the bars. Hahahaha. So, it's farrrr from accurate but better than nothing.

    My splits have steadily gone down on everything, so that feels good. But it seems like I could be doing a lot more track work.
    I work seven days a week but our Mellowdrome is literally a 10min ride from my job. So, boo-yah!

    Appreciate any input and if a mod needs to move this to a more appropriate thread, please do.

    I'm supposed to talk on the phone with a Cycling coach next week. Hopefully that will provide some direction. I've emailed the only local track coach that I know of but never heard back.

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    As a beginner, any structured program will yield great results. So, what you have listed seems fine to me. I'd add more rest in there, though. Instead of 5 minutes, I'd say 15 to get a full recovery...unless you can fully recover in 5, which would be awesome. There is a time in a program where limiting your recovery to shorter periods is part of the plan, but I don't think that time is now.

    The track season is long. You'll have plenty of time to work on conditioning.

    Look for a coach that has experience training sprinters (if you think that will be your focus). There are lots of cycling coaches out there, but only a smaller percentage of them can help you with track sprint training and technique now and tactics later on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    As a beginner, any structured program will yield great results. So, what you have listed seems fine to me. I'd add more rest in there, though. Instead of 5 minutes, I'd say 15 to get a full recovery...unless you can fully recover in 5, which would be awesome. There is a time in a program where limiting your recovery to shorter periods is part of the plan, but I don't think that time is now.

    The track season is long. You'll have plenty of time to work on conditioning.

    Look for a coach that has experience training sprinters (if you think that will be your focus). There are lots of cycling coaches out there, but only a smaller percentage of them can help you with track sprint training and technique now and tactics later on.
    Well, that's surprising. Hah.
    The primary reason I've kept the breaks so short is due to time constraints. I generally only have 1-2 hours to train, tops. That includes 24 minutes of travel to and from. I'd loooooove for the breaks to be longer. I'm trying to move some things around in my schedule to accommodate either longer track sessions or more short ones.

    Right now, my recovery seems okay on 5 minutes of rest for everything except the 500s. Those brutalize me the most, by far. Everything else I seem to be able to maintain a split on. However, I am definitely trying to move to longer breaks. I really want to be able to attack whatever the distance is the same way I would have a squat set, or what have you.

    What should I look at increasing first? The amount of times I do certain workouts or the amount of times I repeat whatever the distance is in a given workout??

    When should I start doing race-style series of points laps and such??

    EDIT: The coach I should be talking with runs the Mars Hill Cycling program. I'm not sure what his experience with track or sprinters is but hopefully he can provide some general input or direct me to someone with more track experience.

  24. #799
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Yes, super happy with my new generic carbon frame. But I was also quite happy with Hermes' old Planet X, which I didn't find flexy at all (but I'm a lightweight). Someone DanAVL's size, I can definitely see going beefy aluminum. Whatever happened to the @ftwelder prototype?

    We had some delays with a special fork we had designed the bike around. We are over that now and the frames/forks are at paint. Overall I am stoked with the project. I have some support for a new optimized butting profile in the future that will drop some serious weight. I think the 56 was 1400g or so anyways, for a power guy, this is metal at it's best. The back is very stiff. I will report back when we know more. I am sure it seems like an eternity. It does to me anyway.,
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

    frankthewelder@comcast.net

    le prix s'oublie,la qualité reste ,(michel audiard)

  25. #800
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    You said you're riding in flats, does that mean non-cycling shoes? If so, that would be the first equipment-related upgrade I'd make. Cheap road shoes and Shimano SPD-SL pedals.

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