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  1. #901
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    The 35cm Scattos have 2cm less drop (3T Cycling - SCATTO). If riding on one of the frames with silly short head tubes you can get a reasonable position without quite as many spacers or the upturned stem, or at leas that works for the masters.

  2. #902
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    For us kilo/sprinter guys- the short head tube and Scattos combo is really nice.

    when my Tiemeyer was being designed- I decided to switch from traditional track drops to 35-Scattos. We compensated by adding a cm to the TT length and taking away a cm from the head tube.

    The result was a frame that allowed me a ton of play with aero position without extreme angle stems, and modern sprint bars that could be mounted on zero spacers with a 0deg stem..

  3. #903
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    It is just frames like Teshner and most of the high end carbon frames with a 120mm headtube with internal headset on a large frame that works for pursuiters that can fold themselves up into a suitcase, but end up with the stack of shame spacers for the rest of us. Scattos allow removing 4 cm of spacers/stem flip compared to standard sprint bars. My stock large Tiemeyer is more like 18cm of headtube + headset stack more like traditional frame sizing.
    I have a theory that the longer top tube is better in sprints as it gets the front wheel out further so in your case you are crossing the line 1 cm ahead of the shorter frame for the same body position. This would suggest using long low frames with short stems as long as handling was unaffected.

  4. #904
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    That's an interesting theory!!

    maybe that's my secret?
    5'9" with a 59cm top tube, and a wicked bike throw!!!

  5. #905
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    For us kilo/sprinter guys- the short head tube and Scattos combo is really nice.

    when my Tiemeyer was being designed- I decided to switch from traditional track drops to 35-Scattos. We compensated by adding a cm to the TT length and taking away a cm from the head tube.

    The result was a frame that allowed me a ton of play with aero position without extreme angle stems, and modern sprint bars that could be mounted on zero spacers with a 0deg stem..
    When using Scattos, increase the stem length to keep the hands in the same place in relation to the front wheel. For example:

    These setups net-out to the same hand position on my Tiemyer which uses a 15cm headtube:
    - 38cm Easton EC90 + 120mm 0 degree stem + 1cm spacer
    - 37cm 3T Scatto + 130mm -10 degree stem

    Remember, the Scattos are about 2cm shorter reach and 3cm shorter drop than the EC 90s. Changing to the right stem puts your hands back in the right spot (just behind the front axle):



    If I had used the same 120mm stem with the Scattos and simply extended my top tube, my hands would be 2cm behind where I like them, which would adversely affect the bike's handling.

    This is a great site for figuring that stuff out: Stem Chart


    Quote Originally Posted by slindell View Post
    This would suggest using long low frames with short stems as long as handling was unaffected.
    But handling would be affected. Handling is a function of:

    - Head Tube Angle
    - Fork (length, offset)
    - Bar/Stem combination

    Notice how you steer when you put your hands on your steering wheel at:
    10 and 2 o'clock
    9 and 3 o'clock
    8 and 4 o'clock

    The same sort of changes happen when you mover your hands behind, on top of, and in front of your front axle.

    You are suggesting that one uses a shorter stem to steer from behind...like this:



    Compare that to this:




    Note the hand positions in relation to the front axle.

  6. #906
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Tiemeyer probably got it wrong

  7. #907
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Tiemeyer probably got it wrong
    Maybe he did.

    Consider this. If the Scattos have less reach then:

    Making the TT longer pushes the hands AND the front wheel out.
    Making the stem longer pushes only the hands out.

  8. #908
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    Hey guys, another new guy post. Found another local bike. Mid-00's Dolan. Road fork(brakes). Never raced but the owner, who bought it used, rode it "..almost every day for a year". So, lots of mileage.

    Went and checked it out this AM. Attached are some pictures I took and here's the original ad:
    Dolan Pre Cursa track bike (fixed gear)

    He wants 700. I don't want to low-ball the guy but I really don't want to offer more than 450$.

    Thoughts??

    Carleton, if there's a better thread for this.... just let me know.



    CAM00901.jpgCAM00902.jpgCAM00903.jpgCAM00904.jpgCAM00905.jpgCAM00906.jpg

  9. #909
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Probs belongs in the "ask your quick track questions" thread. Def not related to training status.

    $700 seems super high for a precursa, but it comes with training wheels and sugino 75's.
    PedalRoom

    Hey I just met you,
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    follow me maybe.

  10. #910
    Senior Member Not the Slowest's Avatar
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    Correct, wrong thread, but New Dolan Pre Cursa Frames on closeout on ebay for $325-350. You could build for similar parts new for about $750-825 ish. WIT
    Quote Originally Posted by DanAVL View Post
    Hey guys, another new guy post. Found another local bike. Mid-00's Dolan. Road fork(brakes). Never raced but the owner, who bought it used, rode it "..almost every day for a year". So, lots of mileage.

    Went and checked it out this AM. Attached are some pictures I took and here's the original ad:
    Dolan Pre Cursa track bike (fixed gear)

    He wants 700. I don't want to low-ball the guy but I really don't want to offer more than 450$.

    Thoughts??

    Carleton, if there's a better thread for this.... just let me know.



    CAM00901.jpgCAM00902.jpgCAM00903.jpgCAM00904.jpgCAM00905.jpgCAM00906.jpg
    Robert
    Not The Slowest, Never The Fastest, even Solo

  11. #911
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAVL View Post
    Hey guys, another new guy post. Found another local bike. Mid-00's Dolan. Road fork(brakes). Never raced but the owner, who bought it used, rode it "..almost every day for a year". So, lots of mileage.

    Went and checked it out this AM. Attached are some pictures I took and here's the original ad:
    Dolan Pre Cursa track bike (fixed gear)

    He wants 700. I don't want to low-ball the guy but I really don't want to offer more than 450$.

    Thoughts??

    Carleton, if there's a better thread for this.... just let me know.
    I'd pass on this bike.

  12. #912
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    Thanks guys!

  13. #913
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Random question - why do man 2 and man 3 in a team sprint not use aerobars?
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  14. #914
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    Random question - why do man 2 and man 3 in a team sprint not use aerobars?
    Not allowed - buried somewhere in the rule book is the list of races that aerobars are allowed and team sprint is not called out.

  15. #915
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
    Random question - why do man 2 and man 3 in a team sprint not use aerobars?
    Quote Originally Posted by slindell View Post
    Not allowed - buried somewhere in the rule book is the list of races that aerobars are allowed and team sprint is not called out.
    The interesting thing is why they aren't allowed. They are allowed for shorter events (the 500M).

    - 500M Individual TT: Aerobars are allowed.
    - 500/750M Team Sprint: Aerobars are not allowed.
    - 750M Individual TT: Aerobars are allowed.
    - 1KM Individual TT: Aerobars are allowed.
    - 3K Individual: Aerobars are allowed.
    - 4K Team and Individual: Aerobars are allowed.

    I'm not debating if it would be optimal to use them or not. But, it doesn't stand to reason that they should not be allowed. It's a time trial event very similar to the others listed above.

    Aerobars are allowed in every other time trial except the Flying 200M. I'd swear that I've seen videos from the 90s where men were using aerobars in the flying 200M. But, I can't find it.

    Maybe someone who was around when the rule came down can explain. Gordon?

  16. #916
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    If you find some vids from the 90's you'll see there was a short window in which aerobars were indeed used by man 2 and 3. And I wanna say they were ok for f-200 at that point too? I think watching those vids points out why they're not allowed. The efforts are too short and explosive for them to really make a big difference, at least for TS on a 250 track.
    Last edited by Baby Puke; 05-10-14 at 04:26 PM. Reason: autocorrect, my nemesis

  17. #917
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    If you find some vids from the 90's you'll see there was a short window in which aerobars were indeed used by man 2 and 3. And I wanna say they were ok for f-200 at that point too? I think watching those vids points out why they're not allowed. The efforts are too short and explosive for them to really make a big difference, at least for TS on a 250 track.
    I could see Man3 using them, even on a 250. It would probably a 50/50 thing where some do and some don't like how people use aerobars now for the 500M.

    Remember Hoy set the flying 500M record using aerobars.

    Last edited by carleton; 05-10-14 at 06:41 PM.

  18. #918
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    So, until now most of my training has been steady single efforts. 1ks, 500's, 250's, or LSD.

    Today I wanted to do something different so I did three laps(500m) steady, then sprinted(lol) the 4th. I did this four times.

    After that I have two questions. When rolling like that, should I stand up to initiate my acceleration?? If so, what should my body position be like? What videos should I watch to mimic, if any?
    Also, how did I PR my 500 time by :4 seconds on the last lap?? Or is that pretty standard new guy progression?

  19. #919
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAVL View Post
    So, until now most of my training has been steady single efforts. 1ks, 500's, 250's, or LSD.

    Today I wanted to do something different so I did three laps(500m) steady, then sprinted(lol) the 4th. I did this four times.

    After that I have two questions. When rolling like that, should I stand up to initiate my acceleration?? If so, what should my body position be like? What videos should I watch to mimic, if any?
    Also, how did I PR my 500 time by :4 seconds on the last lap?? Or is that pretty standard new guy progression?
    For me standing is all about RPM and level of effort. If I want to accelerate quickly, and my RPM is below 100, then I will stand for sure. If I don't care about acceleration or if my RPM is too high I sit. I have a very hard time riding efficiently when standing much over 100 RPM, maybe 105 to 110, and that is it. That is an issue for me as I don't have the leg speed that a lot of real sprinters do have. The picture above from Carleton on 5/3 is a decent one, IMO. Get your but over the pedals and your shoulder over the bars.

    PRs have to do with warmup and level of effort. Some people, myself included don't get to be really fast until they are really warm. My PRs for 2 to 5 minute power have all been set after 2 plus hours of riding. Seems odd, but as long as I don't over cook my early work, and get enough rest in, my later work will always trump it. Also some people are better at ramping up speed and other are better at going all out and then dying. This is why it is best to do a lot of efforts in practice to see what works for you.

  20. #920
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAVL View Post
    So, until now most of my training has been steady single efforts. 1ks, 500's, 250's, or LSD.

    Today I wanted to do something different so I did three laps(500m) steady, then sprinted(lol) the 4th. I did this four times.

    After that I have two questions. When rolling like that, should I stand up to initiate my acceleration?? If so, what should my body position be like? What videos should I watch to mimic, if any?
    Also, how did I PR my 500 time by :4 seconds on the last lap?? Or is that pretty standard new guy progression?

    Seated and standing accelerations both have a place, as they work very different muscle groups. If you are doing strength training on the bike, both would be useful, imo (and usually over-geared). For speed training, you probably want to go for standing accelerations into your maximal effort so that you get up to speed as soon as possible.

    A clip on how to sprint that Carleton posted recently is worth the watch; its somewhere in one of the recent threads. Could be the track vs road sprinting one?

    Its also worth getting someone with experience to watch you, as what feels like head up or hips over the bar etc, can in fact be completely otherwise.

    happy training
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  21. #921
    Senior Member Spoonrobot's Avatar
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    Is it bad form to sign up for every solo event on a pursuit night?

    I went to my first pursuit night at the Dick Lave Velodrome last night. Distances offered were 500m, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k and team events (which I couldn't stay for). I signed up for the 1k and 3k since they had the most riders. But now I'm wondering if there's anything wrong with signing up for all of them since I'm new and don't really know my strengths and preferences yet.

  22. #922
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
    Is it bad form to sign up for every solo event on a pursuit night?

    I went to my first pursuit night at the Dick Lave Velodrome last night. Distances offered were 500m, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k and team events (which I couldn't stay for). I signed up for the 1k and 3k since they had the most riders. But now I'm wondering if there's anything wrong with signing up for all of them since I'm new and don't really know my strengths and preferences yet.


    Some hazard a guess that the kilo is the hardest race in cycling. Did you ever look into the eyes of a racer after the kilo. They are dead eyes. Just kidding.

    New racers to the track always think that they should try all the races. It is just not practical unless you just time trial pace all of them. However, each event, raced properly, is an all out effort leaving all your energy on the boards. I suggest picking races for your respective age group. If you are an elite, race the kilo and the 4K. If you are a young master, the kilo and the 3K. If you are 50+, then the 500 and the 2K. Team events take some practice and typically do not work for new racers with no track experience. However, team events are a lot of fun.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  23. #923
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    I agree. A 4k is going to be feel pretty miserable if you gave anything in the 3k. If you just want to find out what you can do, Id suggest picking the kilo and 3k or 4k based on your age group, then finding another time to do the rest if you are really curious (or something like that). With a proper 1k and 3k effort you can probably guess the rest.

    So its not bad 'form' to do them all, and by all means you are welcome to, but whatever you do first and second will be the only reasonable efforts.

  24. #924
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    I think it depends on how old you are and what you want out of it and how many people they are trying to get in. IMO, you should have picked one short race (500m and 1k) and one long race (2k to 4k), which is what you did. They likely offered them all because different ages do different distances within those categories, but all you need to do is ask if it is ok to do them all. If you had a coach they would hopefully say no, if the official knew turnout was light, they likely wouldn't care if you did them all, if there were plenty of racers they would have likely just pulled you from the extra events anyways.

    I have found that it is usually pretty easy to find someone who can answer most any question at most races, just start asking around if you are new to the area. 3 races a day is a lot for most people unless it is a sprint tournament, so that is a good general target. I have done 6 plus races in a day and after you add in warm up and warm down it makes it more like a long road race than a track race, and you will not be figuring out if you are good at anything as you will just be too tired to care for the last events.

  25. #925
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
    Is it bad form to sign up for every solo event on a pursuit night?

    I went to my first pursuit night at the Dick Lave Velodrome last night. Distances offered were 500m, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k and team events (which I couldn't stay for). I signed up for the 1k and 3k since they had the most riders. But now I'm wondering if there's anything wrong with signing up for all of them since I'm new and don't really know my strengths and preferences yet.
    At DLV, depending on how many people show up, you may only be allowed to do 2 solo events and 2 team events (team sprint and team pursuit). The Time Trial and Pursuit Distances for your age group if you went to Masters or Elite Nationals.

    Pursuit Night at DLV is very popular, so chances are that's what's gonna happen.

    You may be able to ask to do an even as "Out of Competition / Exhibition" for time only, but you won't receive any points or final rankings. For example, I'm too young to do a 500M as my Time Trial event. I should do a Kilo. But, at DLV, I sometimes would ask to do an "Exhibition" 500M if a Kilo didn't suit my program during that time of year. But, I would still be limited to 2 personal events.

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