Baby Puke

This is sounding more and more like I have to do some hard work. Dammit.

Brian Ratliff

Why? Everything you have said points to hitting top speed about mid-way through the timed portion. Why would you hit top speed at the start if that results in a slower time than a standing lap? It really sounds like you do your windup too early and fade during the timed portion. If your final 200m of a standing 250 is faster than your F200, why not just stop during your F200 and do a standing effort for a lap.

Personally, I hit top speed down the back stretch and into the turn. I use the lead in as a momentum builder and apply real power only for the final 250-275m. Some at Alpenrose ride a line that has them under power for only the last 225m (riding a line similar to a 333 line diving for the 200m start from the top of the turn). Under no circumstance should the last 200 of a standing lap be faster than a flying lap. That makes no sense at all.

Quinn8it

In my experience-
if you want to ride a fast kilo- you have to DO A LOT OF KILOS!!

Quinn8it

I'm with Brian on this Carleton..

If your F-200 files look just like your Kilo files- id say you are wasting a lot of energy on your wind up

carleton

Now wait a minute. Don't get carried away. If we look hard enough, we can find a loophole where we don't have to work so hard.

[puts on reading glasses]

It's easier to hold on to speed in a F200 than it is to make speed while in it. Look at Giovanni Rey's file above for a typical F200M on a 250. Max speed at the 200M start line.

That, my friend, is why we are discussing this. The numbers from the files and splits don't lie. I'm not the only one who has experienced this. I'd say that a significant percentage of sprinters can point to cases where splits from a standing lap or leading out a match sprint were actually faster than their flying 200s. It happens.

Remember, during the F200 the rider is building up speed 600M before the timed portion starts. That build up costs energy.

carleton

You are making my point!

The traditional gradual build windup actually sucks sprint energy out of some riders. The key is to stay aerobic and not tap into any anaerobic power...even if this means rolling at warmup pace at the top of the track as your windup.

Once you start tapping into anerobic power to wind up, you have less available for the jump and subsequent speed endurance phase.

EDIT:

This isn't for everyone. But, try staying under 300W during the windup, then with about 160M from the F200M start line, hammer it hard like a rolling jump at 100% (I call it a "rolling standing start"). You'd be surprised at your time.

Quinn8it

I'm confused!

i feel like you are explaining the obvious normal way to do a 200m and saying it's not what people do.

carleton

Hahahahaha!

Well, it may be obvious to you, but I've been coached several ways to do it. One coach said to (on a 333), "Come down the home straight really hot and fast before you hit your jump spot...".

To me, "Hot and fast" is not "under 300w".

But, I'm probably an idiot...so factor that in

Quinn8it

On a 250m I jump as I exit turn 4.. I'd guess that's about 100m from the start line.

The "old school" method at Encino is to stay at the rail well into turn-1, stand and jump down the banking and across the start line, sitting down as you exit turn-2.. Essentially zero wind up- I've ridden 12.0" that way in an 88"

Baby Puke

(weeping...)

Baby Puke

And weirdly...

My 200 times improved at my local (slow) track last year by entering T1 (333 track) quite a bit hotter than I had been, the opposite of what Carleton seems to be suggesting.

Go figure? I don't have an answer, other than I'd been training top end and long speed more.

Brian Ratliff

This is not correct.

There is nothing magical about speed. It's all about power output. What you've claimed is simply that it is easier to hold a lower power output for longer than it is to run a higher power output for shorter. I think this varies by rider. The objective is for the maximum average speed. The speed profile you follow is custom tailored to the rider's strengths. Giovanni Rey is not me, is not you, is not Chris Hoy, is not Quinn... you get the picture. A kilo rider will want to hold lower power for longer. A "pure" sprinter will want to hold higher power output for shorter. I mean, this is the name of the game. What you are saying is a mismatched power profile will result in a slower time. Which is trivial (or maybe a valid point, but you are taking a long way around to get there). The part about when to reach top speed and how you build to it is irrelevant. The only thing relevant is the final 200m. How you get there is custom to each rider.

Brian Ratliff

We have a division at Alpenrose. Some do it the former, some the latter. It's a track that's a bit longer than 250m with turns more akin to a 200m. Kevin Mansker broke the track record doing it the "old school" way, then came back a year later and broke his own record with the longer windup.

carleton

I guess.

I've always believed that if one is accelerating down the back straight then they are doing it wrong.

I suck at Flying 200s. I generally place a few notches higher than I qualify. So it's pretty safe to assume that I'm wrong here

Brian Ratliff

I think it is safe to say that if you are a high power output guy and spending all your bank before the 200m line, you are doing it wrong because people with that kind of power profile typically fall off a cliff after they hit their peak power. So, you are going to go and hit your power peak, say 1500W, down the front stretch, straggle into turn 3 at 700W and limp to the line on 400W. Why not hit the start at 800W, peak at 1500W down the back stretch, and finish at 700W as you cross the line?

Brian Abers (you might know that name), has been known to stand up on the backstretch. My best times have been when I stood to accelerate into turn 3 at the rail, almost soft pedaled off the bank from turn 4 and accelerated seated, on the black line through the last half of the front straight.

gtrob

I think the 'peak speed should be as you cross the start' is a generalization that may not apply to everyone, but rather a good bet to get most people their fastest. I ride with a guy who used to race at a national level say he would negative split F200s. To me it sounds like he isnt jumping hard enough, but perhaps that is the best use of his energy stores.

I've been doing about 2 months of flying laps, trying different jumps but without a timer for most, just speed data. Very general, and very specific to me perhaps, but on the 'early' jump (peak power mid 3/4 turn) I find I end up with a higher top speed but lower overall average for the 200 (the sooner I jump the harder that last 75m is). If I late jump, IE don't stand until Im out of T4, I have more power at the end of the 200. Times are 'close enough its hard to tell' for my data but I think the later jump is resulting in 1 or 2 tenths faster.

I dont think its good to assume, or base your effort off of someone elses. Take the advice and experiment.

Quinn8it

ok-
here is a power file from a 200m at the end of 2013.
the blue section is the "best 25sec watts", which i have determined is the best marker to watch/train for my 200's..

the peak speed exactly correlates with crossing the 200m line.. and you'll notice that i don't exceed 300w until I'm at 250m from the 200m line..


im not saying that this is The Right Way to do a 200.... in fact i would of guessed i hit peak speed on the back straight...

Bulldogsprinter

First track session of 2015 last Sunday and I'm pretty happy. Four flying 200s on our old concrete velodrome on a cold (6 C), windyish (9 mph) day. With 86.8 I id 12.96 and 12.55, switched to rear disc and 93.5 I got 12.76 (messed up the line) and last effort 12.06. Quite short gear compared to what I used last season in races, so it's looking real good.

Muddlfuc

We had our Club Championships on Saturday.. managed a 13.7 on an flat outdoor track on a windy day with a 84.4 gearing.

though i stuffed up my run in a little and was up to speed way to early, so ran out of puff by the line.

Bulldogsprinter

Did a 11.66 (new PB) on a Thursday track meet a few weeks back. Rode a 99" gear, outdoor velodrome and windy day.

alfa111

Rode a 12.69 so according to this calculator my goal is 12.29. Hopefully I can break 12 this season

Bulldogsprinter

After a disappointing qualifying at the nationals I decided to do a test session at the velodrome last Sunday. Full race gear, my wife on the clock and a video camera recording so I can the accurate reliable time afterwards. I start of with a 20min warm up session on the rollers, similar to the one I do before races. I put a 108" gear and do my first try, a 11.70, felt like a never got on top of the gear. I take 15min off and talk tactics with a mate, he suggest that I get on the gas little earlier; seat acceleration coming into turn 1 (400m track) 150m to the line, and jump about mid way between 1 and 2, 120-130m to the line. So I do that, right away I feel that I'm going fast, real fast. The wife tells me the time "11.50", I made my goal! I had hoped for better but good enough. Imagine the feeling I got when I watch the tape at home and timed the run from the tape; 11.366s!! Finally a proper sub 11.5 time. I've known I have the power to do it just haven't been able to put it together.

Then after a 20min rest I got the great idea to try a kilo record as well. 100", ie a bit longer than at the nationals. I start fast, get on top of the gear and keep going, I fade at the end but less than usual. Final time 1:10,34 a new PB, more than .5s of my old record from last week at the nationals. Reason for the new records? Well the weather was better a little warmer almost no wind, and I'm hitting top form a week late. The next day (Monday) I hit new record power with my road bike.

carleton

You can do it. Just practice!

Congrats!

Tell us about your taper leading up to nationals. Maybe you need a longer taper and/or more rest leading up to your big week of the year?

Bulldogsprinter

Hah, my taper went a little tits up with my little girl being born, so I quite happy with what I got. I'm looking at getting proper winter training for track this year, last year I had to do swimming and running because of work. Now I hope that I can do the weight training I had planned last year and see what my potentials are. I'm super stoked with what I've accomplished this year, as I feel I haven't even trained properly.

carleton

Hahaha, that's understandable.