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  1. #51
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Back to the 333 200 line for a minute:

    When looking at 200 splits, on a 400 or 250 my 1st 100 is consistently a tiny bit quicker than the 2nd 100, which is how I'm told it should look. However, on my local 333, it flips around, prompting me to think the 1st 100 is too slow. This is what got me thinking about playing with the line. Anybody else experience something like this?

    It seems to me logical that starting the drop at the mid-point of T1-T2 (instead of the traditional drop point, a beat past the exit of T2) would do two beneficial things: One, it gives you the acceleration of the drop beginning, what 30-40m? before the 200 start line instead of 5-10 m. That would seem to be a good thing. Two, it gets you in the lane quicker and this shortens the true distance you ride for '200' meters.

    Thoughts? I'd love to hear from people who've experimented with this.
    I think it all has to do with the turns… its harder to hold down the power through a tight turn than it is speed.
    on a 333m you only have to navigate 2 turns, and you get to sit before entering turn 3.. on a 250m track you need to sit while you are in turn 1- there seams to be an immediate power drop while sitting, (especially during a turn) despite the fact that top speed happens a bit later.. then you typically have a power burst on the back straight before you to enter turn 3/4 at high speed- but likely not being able to hold max power through the tight turn….
    on a 333m you get to sit before entering the turn, ride through a much gentler turn, and i think it allows that second burst of power and speed to be more easily maintained.. =Negative Split

    check this data from a flying 200 on a 250m track:


    notice that power drops around the sit (the timed section is shaded) then speed peaks after(71kph)…
    there is a peak in power on the back straight resulting in nearly peak speed being reached again as turn 3 is entered (70kph- probably peaked at the apex), but the power can't be held through the tight turn..
    a small burst of power at the exit of turn 4 to fight off the inevitable slowing..

    i think the speed graph would look more like an "Arc" and less like an "M" on a 333m..???
    Last edited by Quinn8it; 12-06-13 at 12:33 PM.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Baby Puke 11.40"
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  3. #53
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Back to the 333 200 line for a minute:

    When looking at 200 splits, on a 400 or 250 my 1st 100 is consistently a tiny bit quicker than the 2nd 100, which is how I'm told it should look. However, on my local 333, it flips around, prompting me to think the 1st 100 is too slow. This is what got me thinking about playing with the line. Anybody else experience something like this?

    It seems to me logical that starting the drop at the mid-point of T1-T2 (instead of the traditional drop point, a beat past the exit of T2) would do two beneficial things: One, it gives you the acceleration of the drop beginning, what 30-40m? before the 200 start line instead of 5-10 m. That would seem to be a good thing. Two, it gets you in the lane quicker and this shortens the true distance you ride for '200' meters.

    Thoughts? I'd love to hear from people who've experimented with this.
    i've done that on accident. attempting my first flying 200. unfortunately i didn't' attempt another one for 3 years. granted i didn't ride a bike during my first and second attempt i don't think i can compare the two.

    but i've got a stop watch, how do your legs feel?
    fried chicken and waffles.

  4. #54
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    Haha, right now? Skinny, weak and slow. Probs not the nest time for testing...

  5. #55
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    I think it all has to do with the turns… its harder to hold down the power through a tight turn than it is speed.
    on a 333m you only have to navigate 2 turns, and you get to sit before entering turn 3.. on a 250m track you need to sit while you are in turn 1- there seams to be an immediate power drop while sitting, (especially during a turn) despite the fact that top speed happens a bit later.. then you typically have a power burst on the back straight before you to enter turn 3/4 at high speed- but likely not being able to hold max power through the tight turn….
    on a 333m you get to sit before entering the turn, ride through a much gentler turn, and i think it allows that second burst of power and speed to be more easily maintained.. =Negative Split

    check this data from a flying 200 on a 250m track:


    notice that power drops around the sit (the timed section is shaded) then speed peaks after(71kph)…
    there is a peak in power on the back straight resulting in nearly peak speed being reached again as turn 3 is entered (70kph- probably peaked at the apex), but the power can't be held through the tight turn..
    a small burst of power at the exit of turn 4 to fight off the inevitable slowing..

    i think the speed graph would look more like an "Arc" and less like an "M" on a 333m..???
    The drop in power happens when people transition from standing to seated. The same dip happens in kilo efforts when moving from standing to seated and moving from in bullhorns to aerobars. This is why some don't like aerobars and prefer drops for the 500M because you don't have to let off the gas during the transfer to the aerobars. Just keep driving in the drops.

    The boost in power comes soon after because of 2 things:

    1) Relatively fresh muscles are newly engaged when you are driving the pedals while seated.
    2) We can spin slightly higher cadences with torque while seated.

    There will be a delay of a second or two from when the power (torque) was applied to when the resulting increases in speed and cadence are recorded (i.e. Rev the engine then speed comes soon after).

    Max speed/cadence will happen while seated for most athletes. This is why some coaches teach us to "sit as we cross the 200M start line". The real thought should be "Accelerate so hard that you are spun-out standing so that you need to sit to go faster." Ever see a racer on a 333 out of the saddle well past the 200M line and sit going into turn 3? They are doing it wrong. They will likely wind up with a negative split 200M and cost themselves a few tenths of a second in doing so.

    I could be totally wrong about all of this, but this is what I've gathered so far on the subject.

    The guiding thought of the 200M is: It is easier to maintain speed than it is to create it. Come into the 200M as fast as possible and hang on for dear life.
    Last edited by carleton; 12-06-13 at 03:07 PM.

  6. #56
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    check this data from a flying 200 on a 250m track:
    Also, you sectioned off your 200M wrong in this graph. For a 200M track, the section should start where the speed is highest (middle of turn 1) and end when you let off the gas.

    Shift that section over for better averages.

  7. #57
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    PedalRoom

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  8. #58
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Also, you sectioned off your 200M wrong in this graph. For a 200M track, the section should start where the speed is highest (middle of turn 1) and end when you let off the gas.

    Shift that section over for better averages.
    Id say top speed happened after the 200m line.. In/after turn 2. Which makes sense as that's the point that you have used all the banking.. And just entered the pole lane

    And as for sectioning off the effort- I just did it quick.. I'm of the opinion that the 12" timed effort section is way less important than the 25" total effort portion... I just grabbed that section to illustrate my corners theory.

  9. #59
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Id say top speed happened after the 200m line.. In/after turn 2. Which makes sense as that's the point that you have used all the banking.. And just entered the pole lane

    And as for sectioning off the effort- I just did it quick.. I'm of the opinion that the 12" timed effort section is way less important than the 25" total effort portion... I just grabbed that section to illustrate my corners theory.
    The 12" section is also important. It will show your average cadence, average speed and average power for the effort.

    All things being equal, top speed always happens in the corners. Every rise in speed is in the corners. That's because your body leans inward and your wheels actually travel faster than your center of mass, then they slow down slightly slower than your center of mass as your exit the turn.

    This is evident especially in steady efforts like a 4K where you see the rhythmic oscillation in the graph but the wattage stays somewhat steady.

    So, if max speed happen in the the middle of the turn and the F200M start line is at the middle of the turn, then that's where the clock started on the effort.

    Here is an excellent example of where to mark the sections for a F200M on a 250M track:

    Pink is speed, green is power, and blue is cadence:


    Another way is to count back 12" from where your power dropped, assuming that you let off the gas as soon as you crossed the finish line.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    The 12" section is also important. It will show your average cadence, average speed and average power for the effort.
    IMHO:
    What you see in the last 12" of a 200m is more a symptom of what happened in the preceding 12"...

  11. #61
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    IMHO:
    What you see in the last 12" of a 200m is more a symptom of what happened in the preceding 12"...
    I'm not disagreeing with you.

    My point is that we should section off the same section that the guy with the stopwatch is sectioning

  12. #62
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    I am in for this one. 11.81 PB (T-Town) puts me at 11.54 that's where I want to be for Masters Nats.

  13. #63
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Baby Puke 11.40"
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    Last edited by Quinn8it; 12-10-13 at 10:56 AM.

  14. #64
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    Current PR on current track is 12.00. Ya, tell me about it.

    That puts me on goal for 11.70.

    -TC

  15. #65
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    current PB 14.81... which puts my goal time at 14.09.

  16. #66
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    Current PR early this season was 14.94 which puts my goal at 14.2. Only did event twice at my local track so looking forward to seeing how this works out.
    I know you guys are shaking in your boots.

  17. #67
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Baby Puke 11.40"
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    Last edited by Quinn8it; 12-11-13 at 10:33 AM.

  18. #68
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with you.

    My point is that we should section off the same section that the guy with the stopwatch is sectioning
    Hows this?

  19. #69
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Hows this?
    Much better!

  20. #70
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    I want to play! Are any of the other responders women? I'm trying to decide if the #'s are really equivalent -- I don't think so, I think the progression curve should be shifted up by a second. Ie, Jesse getting from 11.8 to 11.5 is equiv to me getting from 12.8 to 12.5, not me getting from 12.8 to 12.3! Anyway, doesn't really matter, it's fun and arbitrary right? I'll win even with a testosterone disadvantage! (uh jk)

  21. #71
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amybikes View Post
    I want to play! Are any of the other responders women? I'm trying to decide if the #'s are really equivalent -- I don't think so, I think the progression curve should be shifted up by a second. Ie, Jesse getting from 11.8 to 11.5 is equiv to me getting from 12.8 to 12.5, not me getting from 12.8 to 12.3! Anyway, doesn't really matter, it's fun and arbitrary right? I'll win even with a testosterone disadvantage! (uh jk)
    Yeah right, women don't exist on the internet.
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  22. #72
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    I guess I need to ride a 200 to enter?

    I think we should do this for the 4k and drag all you fat boys into my sick little pain cave.

  23. #73
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    I guess I need to ride a 200 to enter?

    I think we should do this for the 4k and drag all you fat boys into my sick little pain cave.

    Dude! just because you and i are the same height and i weigh 50lbs more than you- doesn't mean I'm FAT! Mom says I'm Big Boned...

    i bet i could ride a decent Team Pursuit- since i actually have good speed and good recovery while sucking a wheel… but individual 4K would likely be a slaughter...

  24. #74
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    I guess I need to ride a 200 to enter?

    I think we should do this for the 4k and drag all you fat boys into my sick little pain cave.
    Wait...is the 4K more than 4 laps?

  25. #75
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Wait...is the 4K more than 4 laps?
    you and i could ride it as a relay… madison pursuit?

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